1107 replies to this topic

[Shumabot]

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Again, to restate the point of this thread:

• Every single optimized design requires double heatsinks.

• Every single serious loadout is improved with double heatsinks.

• It is an absolute and total improvement in every respect.

• There is no build that is better off with Single Heatsinks.*

This is not good game design to have such a useless, extraneous feature.

Either make better use of it or get rid of it entirely.



_{* Yes, one Commando with extra ammunition can benefit from SHS, and that's it.}

Stop trying. They won't understand because they don't want to. Because the sacred tabletop game and reasons.

[Joseph Mallan]

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Again, to restate the point of this thread:

• Every single optimized design requires double heatsinks.

• Every single serious loadout is improved with double heatsinks.

• It is an absolute and total improvement in every respect.

• There is no build that is better off with Single Heatsinks.*

This is not good game design to have such a useless, extraneous feature.

Either make better use of it or get rid of it entirely.



_{* Yes, one Commando with extra ammunition can benefit from SHS, and that's it.}

GaussCat!

Absolutes are a faulty generalization.

[Butane9000]

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Again, to restate the point of this thread:

• Every single optimized design requires double heatsinks.

• Every single serious loadout is improved with double heatsinks.

• It is an absolute and total improvement in every respect.

• There is no build that is better off with Single Heatsinks.*

This is not good game design to have such a useless, extraneous feature.


Either make better use of it or get rid of it entirely.



_{* Yes, one Commando with extra ammunition can benefit from SHS, and that's it.}

I beg to differ:

Awesome AWS-8Q: 2 Large Lasers 5 Medium Lasers

Have a nice day.

Edit Note: One could even reduce the armor to add another heat sink if they wanted.

Edited by Butane9000, 25 March 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Protection]

qki, on 25 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I run singles on my 3LL Gauss strea atlas, with a whopping 1 crit left, and 11 heatsinks outside the engine.

So you use something like this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...989e06afac5cf0c


So what you are saying is that you suck at mech design and are incompetent.

Optimized your design to be much less terribad: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a7f05a6af29477d

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

GaussCat!

Absolutes are a faulty generalization.

The gauss cat can fire for longer while standing in the volcano in caldera if it has dubs. It has a higher maximum heat capacity and you don't lose heat while standing in it.

Also, that same gauss cat is much less vulnerable to flamers.

As there is no downside to the upgrade, what so ever, and I Just provided to places where that build benefits it is definitively superior with it.

[Teralitha]

Before (insert feature here) was added to the game, it was more balanced, there were less cheesebuilds disrupting fairplay, the skillcurve was higher, and the game was generally more entertaining.


I dont know... maybe remove those features to make the game better again? It makes sense doesnt it?

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

GaussCat!

Absolutes are a faulty generalization.

Heh... gausscat with single heatsinks sitting in the caldera... = boom. dbl heat sinks? not sure.

[Shumabot]

Butane9000, on 25 March 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

I beg to differ:

Awesome AWS-8Q: 2 Large Lasers 5 Medium Lasers

Have a nice day.

Edit Note: One could even reduce the armor to add another heat sink if they wanted.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f74385eaff5fd73

You now go 10 KPH faster and cool 13% better. You have almost 5 tons left for more guns and maxed armor.

Seriously, you people are terrible at this game

[Protection]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

GaussCat!

Absolutes are a faulty generalization.

With SHS: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...72a00c06a4666da

38% cooling efficiency


With DHS: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dcdf73a09a9de3f

77% cooling efficiency


Where might this come up? Say, in an extended brawl inside the Caldera on Caustic valley. But that doesn't matter.

Even if they are 'equivalent' for most uses, nothing changes the fact that the single heatsink design is the sub optimal one.

Butane9000, on 25 March 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

I beg to differ:

Awesome AWS-8Q: 2 Large Lasers 5 Medium Lasers

Have a nice day.

Edit Note: One could even reduce the armor to add another heat sink if they wanted.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2191de2274cffda

Come on Butane... I expected better from a former Dark Sabre.

[Protection]

Thontor, on 25 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I agree with everything you said except this

I believe its bad game design to give players fewer avenues of improving a mech after purchasing it.

There's also the part where this game is based on a universe where they exist, where DHS are an upgrade in every way, and that's the way it should be, because that's the way it is.

I disagree with you Thontor, but I appreciate that you at least understand.

The guys who think SHS can be useful are driving me to drink and it's not even noon.

[Joseph Mallan]

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

With SHS: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...72a00c06a4666da

38% cooling efficiency


With DHS: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dcdf73a09a9de3f

77% cooling efficiency


Where might this come up? Say, in an extended brawl inside the Caldera on Caustic valley. But that doesn't matter.

Even if they are 'equivalent' for most uses, nothing changes the fact that the single heatsink design is the sub optimal one.

Better, but not a necessity. Cause in the Caldera I can just fire the Gauss. The mech is perfectly capable of delivering the Gauss with no drawbacks.

[Shumabot]

Thontor, on 25 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I agree with everything you said except this

I believe its bad game design to give players fewer avenues of improving a mech after purchasing it.

There's also the part where this game is based on a universe where they exist, where DHS are an upgrade in every way, and that's the way it should be, because that's the way it is.

Then argue for dubs to be changed out from being a pure upgrade. Or for matchmaking to take mech cost into account. Dubs are really damaging to this game. They drive new players away by making new mechs and trial mechs dramatically worse than the mechs that they will be facing. A bad mechanic is a mechanic that is bad for the game, and this is damaging at almost every level, conceptual, functional, and ideological. The current implementation is bad, if we want to maintain the idea of having other technology to swap into then the devs should create something where choice isn't an illusion and where systems aren't confusing and contradictory. A straight upgrade creates a system of haves and have nots, makes new mechs bad, old mechs good, and reinforces the idea that this isn't a game for new players and that you should only buy a a new mech when you have that extra 1.5 million to throw at it.

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Better, but not a necessity. Cause in the Caldera I can just fire the Gauss. The mech is perfectly capable of delivering the Gauss with no drawbacks.

Edited by Shumabot, 25 March 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Better, but not a necessity. Cause in the Caldera I can just fire the Gauss. The mech is perfectly capable of delivering the Gauss with no drawbacks.

I am not so sure -what if you meet another Gauss Cat? What if he has the DHS upgrade and fires his lasers but you can't afford to it?

That is one of the things - if the only difference between you and some other guy is 5 %, then these 5 % is all that it takes.

When you meet someone on the battlefield and duke it out, you only win if you can put out the damage needed to kill your opponent before he can put out the damage he needs to kill you. A 5 % difference might mean you're mech is a wreck afterwards, but if it still moves, you can still run to the cap point or try to surprise someone and deal another shot that helps one of your allies.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Then argue for dubs to be changed out from being a pure upgrade. Or for matchmaking to take mech cost into account. Dubs are really damaging to this game. They drive new players away by making new mechs and trial mechs dramatically worse than the mechs that they will be facing. A bad mechanic is a mechanic that is bad for the game, and this is damaging at almost every level, conceptual, functional, and ideological. The current implementation is bad, if we want to maintain the idea of having other technology to swap into then the devs should create something where choice isn't an illusion and where systems aren't confusing and contradictory. A straight upgrade creates a system of haves and have nots, makes new mechs bad, old mechs good, and reinforces the idea that this isn't a game for new players and that you should only buy a a new mech when you have that extra 1.5 million to throw at it.

Yeah you should get some help with that drinking problem.

[Butane9000]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f74385eaff5fd73

You now go 10 KPH faster and cool 13% better. You have almost 5 tons left for more guns and maxed armor.

Seriously, you people are terrible at this game

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2191de2274cffda

Come on Butane... I expected better from a former Dark Sabre.

Also someone remembers I was a former Dark Sabre!?!?!?!

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Yeah you should get some help with that drinking problem.

You're the one driving me to drink.

[Kdogg788]

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

I disagree with you Thontor, but I appreciate that you at least understand.

The guys who think SHS can be useful are driving me to drink and it's not even noon.

I would never go as far as to make a case for some wonky SHS build, however, doubles are not likely to go anywhere, and if there would be a post from Garth saying "Um guys, I realize that you're totally right with your ranting and we are going to either remove single heat sinks, or reduce their weight by half to make them theoretically the same as doubles", then I would seriously fall off my chair. The degree of vitriol in some of the replies is nothing short of shocking, as if some of the posters have a mainline right to PGI that the game should be changed to their wishes.

No they aren't as good. No they aren't a sidegrade. But they are STILL an OPTION. If SHS bother you so much Schuma, just run eight mans where you can police the loadouts of your team.

-k

[SMDMadCow]

I agree that doubles are a direct upgrade, but if you removee them then you also remove the 1.5 milllion cbill grind and sink to get them. That along with the perception of chassis progression with equipment.
That being said I did have 1 Hunchback build that was so crit packed that doubles would have left it 1 ton under weight with no space for anything else, I didnt have the funds for an engine 1 ton heavier so I just left the singles on it.

[Sifright]

Rakkar, on 22 March 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

They're not required. They're an efficient upgrade (IF you have the critical location space). You can operate mechs w/o DHS.

As someone said above, learn to manage heat efficiently.

lol, you don't actually know much about this game do you?

most mechs only have a few external heat sinks ergo you are always better off with DHS which gives you double the INTERNALS you know those 10 free sinks in the engine? They suddenly become doubles so bam 10 tonnes of heat sinks free right there.

Edited by Sifright, 25 March 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 25 March 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

I am not so sure -what if you meet another Gauss Cat? What if he has the DHS upgrade and fires his lasers but you can't afford to it?

That is one of the things - if the only difference between you and some other guy is 5 %, then these 5 % is all that it takes.

When you meet someone on the battlefield and duke it out, you only win if you can put out the damage needed to kill your opponent before he can put out the damage he needs to kill you. A 5 % difference might mean you're mech is a wreck afterwards, but if it still moves, you can still run to the cap point or try to surprise someone and deal another shot that helps one of your allies.

You are right, But the Gauss cat with singles is viable, And still deadly. and even a 2% difference is all you need to win. You do not NEED doubles to have a deadly build. They help... a lot, but as far as necessity goes...

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 25 March 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

I would never go as far as to make a case for some wonky SHS build, however, doubles are not likely to go anywhere, and if there would be a post from Garth saying "Um guys, I realize that you're totally right with your ranting and we are going to either remove single heat sinks, or reduce their weight by half to make them theoretically the same as doubles", then I would seriously fall off my chair. The degree of vitriol in some of the replies is nothing short of shocking, as if some of the posters have a mainline right to PGI that the game should be changed to their wishes.

No they aren't as good. No they aren't a sidegrade. But they are STILL an OPTION. If SHS bother you so much Schuma, just run eight mans where you can police the loadouts of your team.

-k

I do.

Well, 4mans. It's hard to get 8 peeps together.

Edited by Shumabot, 25 March 2013 - 11:21 AM.