1107 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Interesting.

People comment about recommending actual ways to increase viability of SHS, as such are supposedly being ignored. Several people post such. What happens, all such ideas are ignored as people continue circular arguing for the sake of arguing.

Conclusion: people are more interested in complaining about the game then any attempts to actually improve it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

Interesting.

People comment about recommending actual ways to increase viability of SHS, as such are supposedly being ignored. Several people post such. What happens, all such ideas are ignored as people continue circular arguing for the sake of arguing.

Conclusion: people are more interested in complaining about the game then any attempts to actually improve it.

Guilty as Charged.
Though I have suggested s few things to help the issue.

[Wintersdark]

I'd definitely like to see something changed, because IMHO SHS's as they exist hurt new players but add little else to the game.

Yes, you can be successful with SHS, but this is not like discussing whether or not you should use a given type of weapon or not (as one can frequently see in, say, pulse vs. regular lasers). SHS and DHS lead to the same gameplay, but one lets you fire your weapons more often. In the present game implementation, DHS is simply better.

Lasers? Well, regular may be better overall, but at least Pulse lasers can bring a different style of play in - faster beam duration allows quicker turning after firing, easier to put all the damage in one spot, whatever - I don't want to start a debate about that.

DHS are nothing but a flat out numerical upgrade unless you've running more than 30 SHS, which is roughly where it's actually beneficial to use them. And that's not exactly common.


So, given that... You don't want to nerf DHS, because that's a major change to how combat works. So, you pretty much must buff SHS, if you want them to be a choice rather than just "low level gear" and DHS's being a cash-sink upgrade.

Buffing SHS has the lovely side effect that it makes trial mechs suck less, which makes the new player experience better.

So.. yeah, that's really the only option. Buff SHS, or accept they are just there to allow DHS to be a cash sink.

[Joseph Mallan]

The problem I have with your suggestion Wintersdark is Doubles are supposed to be twice as effective as singles. So as the crow flies There would always be a gulf that has been there since they were introduced to TT. As we are in the early part of the launch of double sinks not many Mechs have em. The fact we are getting to add them at this time is going to affect the Clan campaign. the first two years of this war was fought mostly with these less than optimized 3025 loadouts. It isn't till 3055 that the Mechs started coming one and all with doubles.

Now what is killing Trails is they are firing 2-3 times before the Mechs sinks do their work(10 seconds). That is the fail in the system. Sinks need to vent in at the worst 0.5 the time they do now. Our slowest weapons cycle at 4 seconds, so we still would be building heat, but it would be at a more manageable level.

Now to the Price. If the DEVs can lower the price of an Atlas-K from 20 Mil, they can lower the cost of The sink upgrade also. However, as with R&R I don't see the problem with the cost. All of my accounts have double sinks and I have paid for Premium on this and one other. So I don't personally see the cost as being outrageous. Could it be lowered? Of course! I won't lie I like free as much as the next player, but as long as I have been gaming, I also don't want stuff handed to me either.

There is no reason that the standard sinks should be nerfed so bad. The Original Solaris rules failed for a number of reasons. The cyclic rate of weapons was part of it.

Fire, (recharge/reload/Vent)
again
agian
agian

Not this fire 2-3 times per turn then vent.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 March 2013 - 03:07 PM.

[Chavette]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

I was talking to Quantum. You interrupted.
And I am on a chair.

Well I didnt know you can interrupt someone on a forum, seems like bishop and wintersdark just interrupted us too!

They sure need some manners!

[Joseph Mallan]

Chavette, on 27 March 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Well I didnt know you can interrupt someone on a forum, seems like bishop and wintersdark just interrupted us too!

They sure need some manners!

Indeed!

[Shumabot]

Yep, I list a well explained series of solutions to the issue after being specifically asked by two people about it and they gloss it over to just keep on spouting out the same stuff. This is why I haven't trying to meaningfully engage here with targeted suggestions. No one cares about anything but their own ideas.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 27 March 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Yep, I list a well explained series of solutions to the issue after being specifically asked by two people about it and they gloss it over to just keep on spouting out the same stuff. This is why I haven't trying to meaningfully engage here with targeted suggestions. No one cares about anything but their own ideas.

You did list some good solutions. I don't agree with some, the one I have the most problem with was the (IIRC) 1.0 sinks in engine and 2.0 outside. That is the same as mixing Sinks which is a advanced game rule. and not what I think would be a good idea.

As cool down do you mean weapon recycle (what they call cool down on OHMs chart) or sinks cool down? If its weapon cool down, that could work, I don't know if the player base would be good with reduced cyclic though.

The 1.4 Non engine sink is a stupid concept, but I gotta ask are you against the price of FFA and Endo also or are those acceptable to you? I personally don't have a problem paying the "tax' you are set against. But again that is a personal preference.

As I mentioned before as the game rolls out more and more Mechs will have Doubles and Endo built in. It is the timeline being followed that has these level one Mechs being leveled on us. It is part of starting at the beginning of the clan invasion.

[Bishop Steiner]

I'd actually like to point out that my interruption was of your interrupt of my previous interruption, which was itself interrupted by some darn kids playing on my lawn......

And some of the ideas bandied about have been acknowledged, some as good, some interesting, and some not so good. Some have also had modifications suggested. Any realistic ideas beyond demands that the whole game community see things according to the pic of a couple players is GREAT, as discussion hopefully breeds ideas to improve the game.

The apparent need to condescend and aggressively attack those who may disagree, or point out flaws in any of our assumptions, on the other hand, is not , and generally just generates similar attacks in reciprocation. The biggest problem with the premise of this entire thread is that it assumes that the sole goal and direction of MWO is just to be some multiplayer deathmatch, which is completely counter to the stated goals of the developers. Most of the arguments are moot IF the proposed roadmap and meta actually is the endgame.

Whether or not they ever actually get there, is a completely differing matter.

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

You did list some good solutions. I don't agree with some, the one I have the most problem with was the (IIRC) 1.0 sinks in engine and 2.0 outside. That is the same as mixing Sinks which is a advanced game rule. and not what I think would be a good idea.

As cool down do you mean weapon recycle (what they call cool down on OHMs chart) or sinks cool down? If its weapon cool down, that could work, I don't know if the player base would be good with reduced cyclic though.

The 1.4 Non engine sink is a stupid concept, but I gotta ask are you against the price of FFA and Endo also or are those acceptable to you? I personally don't have a problem paying the "tax' you are set against. But again that is a personal preference.

As I mentioned before as the game rolls out more and more Mechs will have Doubles and Endo built in. It is the timeline being followed that has these level one Mechs being leveled on us. It is part of starting at the beginning of the clan invasion.

As a starter, though I have played it I unconditionally don't care about that sanctity of canon. If canon is causing bad game systems then canon can and should be abandoned. The canon of BT creates incredibly imbalanced systems when applied to a competitive arena style combat game like this one. Doubles are one such bleeding example.

I mean cool down as the speed to which heat sinks return the mechs heat to it's starting value. Nothing here effects weapon cooldowns (except that the player would have to control them themselves).

As to your third point, I don't care about canon. It's causing this game problems in the here and now. Severe ones. If you want this game to survive to clans you should probably stop adhering so strongly to the timeline. This games population is dropping and it's already quite small. Battletech died. Repeatedly. It's a zombie now. This game isn't immortal.

Edited by Shumabot, 27 March 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Atheus]

I find catching up today I just scroll past the text blocks from certain posters. Hey, new topic: I'm making a new F2P racing game, and every player starts off with access to brand new stock honda civic, ford focus or chevy volt automobiles. Over time they'll be able to earn money to buy their own car where they can add engine and suspension upgrades (to make them actually function like race cars) or even buy a Formula 1 Car, but generally speaking everyone will be tossed onto the track with whatever car they bring. That way Formula 1 owners who can't cut it against other Formula 1 cars will probably just lose until they're racing their 250 mph race car against the stock civics and chevy volts. Sounds good? Oh, by the way, new players will start off racing against modified ferraris and other supercars, but after losing maybe 30 or 40 matches they'll be down in the brackets where the other newbies and mentally challenged veterans in 110 mph production cars run. This way, whether it be by superior equipment or superior skill everyone can walk away a winner (aside from the newbies they're just fukd)!

Please support my new game!

Edited by Atheus, 27 March 2013 - 05:15 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 27 March 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

As a starter, though I have played it I unconditionally don't care about that sanctity of canon. If canon is causing bad game systems then canon can and should be abandoned. The canon of BT creates incredibly imbalanced systems when applied to a competitive arena style combat game like this one. Doubles are one such bleeding example.I

don't see canon as causing the problem. Canon is the story where game mechanics are what I see as the fault.

Quote

I mean cool down as the speed to which heat sinks return the mechs heat to it's starting value. Nothing here effects weapon cooldowns (except that the player would have to control them themselves).

Ok I thought that was the case. I have suggested for months that we need a faster cooldown. ever since testing a Awesome-9M. That Mech should be capable of firing close to 6 times before shutdown.

Quote

As to your third point, I don't care about canon. It's causing this game problems in the here and now. Severe ones. If you want this game to survive to clans you should probably stop adhering so strongly to the timeline. This games population is dropping and it's already quite small.

I really don't see it that way. Canon is Hans married Melissa, Clans Wolf, Ghost Bear, Jade Falcon etc invaded on this date and time. How a heat sink operates or if a Medium Pulse laser gets a +2 to hit are game Mechanics. trying to match Game Mechanics to close can screw up this game. But in the case of ECM not following it can get them in as much trouble. There are a lot of Lawmen that are not playing MWO cause they hate ECM. *shrug*

BUT I am here to battle the Clans from start to finish, whenever they actually launch that. I don't want to be involved in the poptart game the other MechWarrior games were online. The 1:1 timetable will eventually need adjusting. There is that big Lull in the fight v the Clans and that will need to be pushed ahead to keep interest in my opinion.

Personally I don't think this game was ready for Open beta. there is no real content, we are not fighting for anything but the ability to fight. to much is missing from the game. I've been playing this game in almost all its forms for the last 28 years. We have players here for all kinds of different reasons, We will all have to be ready for when the DEVs finally say this is it. It is not going to be the game any of us expected and I hope it is the game that makes us all mostly happy. My wife is not at all happy with how much I have invested in this game, I want to see it launch and become one great MMO!

In the end if the DEVs take some of what you are offering and some of what I am then the game will be better balanced as it will use more than one perspective of what the game will be.

Also, That bit about player numbers has been tossed around before. Until I have problems finding a match We are not in trouble. Just a 1/2 full over 1/2 empty person.

Atheus, on 27 March 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

I find catching up today I just scroll past the text blocks from certain posters. Hey, new topic: I'm making a new F2P racing game, and every player starts off with access to brand new stock honda civic, ford focus or chevy volt automobiles. Over time they'll be able to earn money to buy their own car where they can add engine and suspension upgrades (to make them actually function like race cars) or even buy a Formula 1 Car, but generally speaking everyone will be tossed onto the track with whatever car they bring. That way Formula 1 owners who can't cut it against other Formula 1 cars will probably just lose until they're racing their 250 mph race car against the stock civics and chevy volts. Sounds good? Oh, by the way, new players will start off racing against modified ferraris and other supercars, but after losing maybe 30 or 40 matches they'll be down in the brackets where the other newbies and mentally challenged veterans in 110 mph production cars run. This way, whether it be by superior equipment or superior skill everyone can walk away a winner (aside from the newbies they're just fukd)!

Please support my new game!

You forgot to add the part about the race teams that always get the best pole positions, and work together to insure the best lap times!

[Huntsman]

Well, there are isolated (and IMO sub par) assault builds that are actually more heat efficient with SHS, but I'm splitting hairs with that statement. Yes, it is for all intents and purposes an absolute upgrade, as opposed to endo which is a situational upgrade, or FF which is a *very* situational upgrade.

As already mentioned, it's there to sink money, but also to create goals for players to work towards. Of course the issue is that long term players like myself don't need to work towards these upgrades since I have ridiculous amounts of cbills in the bank, while the new player who has the ill fortune of facing me has to work for the upgrade while already fighting an uphill battle against my undoubtedly better build, far superior skill, better equipment knowledge, and superior map knowledge. So, you do have a point. Perhaps SHS's ultimate purpose is to unintentionally rage quit off new players.

Edited by Huntsman, 27 March 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[Atheus]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

You forgot to add the part about the race teams that always get the best pole positions, and work together to insure the best lap times!

Actually, the part I forgot to add is there is a 1.5 million dollar supercharger that will make any engine produce about 50-100% more horsepower, though it's just an optional upgrade.

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

don't see canon as causing the problem. Canon is the story where game mechanics are what I see as the fault.

Ok I thought that was the case. I have suggested for months that we need a faster cooldown. ever since testing a Awesome-9M. That Mech should be capable of firing close to 6 times before shutdown.

I really don't see it that way. Canon is Hans married Melissa, Clans Wolf, Ghost Bear, Jade Falcon etc invaded on this date and time. How a heat sink operates or if a Medium Pulse laser gets a +2 to hit are game Mechanics. trying to match Game Mechanics to close can screw up this game. But in the case of ECM not following it can get them in as much trouble. There are a lot of Lawmen that are not playing MWO cause they hate ECM. *shrug*

BUT I am here to battle the Clans from start to finish, whenever they actually launch that. I don't want to be involved in the poptart game the other MechWarrior games were online. The 1:1 timetable will eventually need adjusting. There is that big Lull in the fight v the Clans and that will need to be pushed ahead to keep interest in my opinion.

Personally I don't think this game was ready for Open beta. there is no real content, we are not fighting for anything but the ability to fight. to much is missing from the game. I've been playing this game in almost all its forms for the last 28 years. We have players here for all kinds of different reasons, We will all have to be ready for when the DEVs finally say this is it. It is not going to be the game any of us expected and I hope it is the game that makes us all mostly happy. My wife is not at all happy with how much I have invested in this game, I want to see it launch and become one great MMO!

In the end if the DEVs take some of what you are offering and some of what I am then the game will be better balanced as it will use more than one perspective of what the game will be.

Also, That bit about player numbers has been tossed around before. Until I have problems finding a match We are not in trouble. Just a 1/2 full over 1/2 empty person.

You had a problem with one of my system fixes "appearing to be mixed doubles and singles". That is canon. That is canon applied in an overtly damaging way to prevent a system from being something that isn't nonsense. Double heatsinks are nonsense in this game. In BT they are a straight up upgrade and in this game that is something that they must not be to maintain balance.

Therefore canon has to either be abandoned or ignored for this aspect of this game to be improved. I am perfectly ok with this. I don't care about canon. BT died 15 years ago, I'm perfectly ok with whoever holds the IP changing it in what ways they wish. I honestly wish they would go a lot farther, then maybe the franchise could actually come into 2013.

Edited by Shumabot, 27 March 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[Atheus]

Shumabot, on 27 March 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

You had a problem with one of my system fixes "appearing to be mixed doubles and singles". That is canon. That is canon applied in an overtly damaging way to prevent a system from being something that isn't nonsense. Double heatsinks are nonsense in this game. In BT they are a straight up upgrade and in this game that is something that they must not be to maintain balance.

Therefore canon has to either be abandoned or ignored for this aspect of this game to be improved. I am perfectly ok with this. I don't care about canon. BT died 15 years ago, I'm perfectly ok with whoever holds the IP changing it in what ways they wish. I honestly wish they would go a lot farther, then maybe the franchise could actually come into 2013.

I would really just give up on making heat sinks into a choice. It's complex enough balancing the game around one heat system - I would rather they do a better job of balancing the game around DHS (and the inevitable clan DHS) than trying to introduce another viable alternative to do the same job differently. I'm pretty well in line with the original post - get rid of SHS entirely, or don't get rid of them, but push them out of sight of players who want nothing to do with them. It's unnecessary complexity to feed a false sense of progression, at the present stage of the game.

[Atheus]

Tesunie, on 27 March 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

wall of text

I didn't really read your post, but while scanning the thread I noticed you still don't know how DHS work. I don't know if anyone bothered to tell you yet, but DHS add 2.0 per engine heat sink and 1.4 per external heat sink to both heat dissipation per 10 and also to heat capacity, so there is presently no "heat capacity" advantage to SHS as you imagined. You can stop fussing over that detail.

[FupDup]

Atheus, on 27 March 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

I didn't really read your post, but while scanning the thread I noticed you still don't know how DHS work. I don't know if anyone bothered to tell you yet, but DHS add 2.0 per engine heat sink and 1.4 per external heat sink to both heat dissipation per 10 and also to heat capacity, so there is presently no "heat capacity" advantage to SHS as you imagined. You can stop fussing over that detail.

I think he's referring to the proposal by a few people of buffing SHS to increase capacity by more than DHS (while keeping them at slow dissipation) and forgot to frame his post as such.

[Atheus]

FupDup, on 27 March 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

I think he's referring to the proposal by a few people of buffing SHS to increase capacity by more than DHS (while keeping them at slow dissipation) and forgot to frame his post as such.

Nope, I just read a little closer. He definitely thinks DHS only add 1 each to heat capacity.

[Bishop Steiner]

@Shumabot,
And if you read other people's proposed modifications to some of your suggestions, you would see that there are suggestions out there that would allow things to still work close to canon, and not have to abandon it entirely.  Despite your rage at anything I have to say, I actually did acknowledge several of your ideas having merit, and some I offered tweaks to, maybe better, maybe not, as it would take actual modeling to be sure.  The mix/match heatsink was not one of them though, as honestly, with a small amount of work, and some of the ideas proposed by Tesunie, yourself, Joseph, myself and others, going to that degree should be unnecessary.
Hence game mechanics AND canon can be preserved, which is the ideal goal in any game based off an existing IP.  Else one might as well just call it Generic Stompy Robot Online, as canon and fluff, is, in the end what makes an IP an IP.  And those games either live or die by.those details.  But better a failed Mechwarrior game, than a successful one that bears no resemblance to that IP.  We already have Hawken and other games if all we want is robots bashing other robots.  The goal, as the Devs have stated, is to make a worthy Mechwarrior title, and since it HAS worked successfully through 4 previous iterations, I would say it premature to proclaim it unworkable for a fifth.
But it only works if people indeed actually are looking for solutions, as they claim, and are open to listening to feedback from others, without turning things into a rage filled rant, simply because maybe others see things with a differing perspective.  In the end, it is doubtful any one of us has the perfect solution.  But people actually willing to cooperate and compromise can.
The ball is in your court.  Take it however you like.  I care about seeing this game succeed, not whether I win any popularity contests along the way.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 March 2013 - 08:32 PM.