60 replies to this topic

[AnubiteGroove]

Dual shotties works for me on my K2, you just have to use them on red or broken armor for the most part. A friend of mine called it a "crit seeker," and it does this well. On the whole though, it is inferior per ton. The only other time it was a lifesaver was with the 4 ballistic Cicada. Running around like a bat out of hell, targeting weak mechs, and dropping them before they have much of a chance to hit me. I sold that cicado though, as it just sucked in general.

[Ialti]

Mister Haha, on 23 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I use the LBX10 and I find it to work effectively. There's some trolls out there that say it's crap, but then again, they usually get blown up by it.

The question isn't "how well do you use the LBX-AC10," it is instead "to what lengths do you have to go to use the LBX-AC10 well."

And the answer isn't "you're all trolls lololol," It's "good question, let's find out!"

[armyof1]

FrostCollar, on 23 March 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

This is correct. I can't remember dying to any either. Most weapons are less effective outside their effective range, but only the LBX 10 ceases to be a threat even inside that range.

I tried the LBX 10 a number of times, tempted by the siren song of "it's good against lights!" However, one of it's most unique attributes is its ability to spread around and therefore dilute its damage even at closer range. This makes it uniquely bad. Given the LBX's already low damage, that's not good enough for its weight.

At the very least, it needs a tighter spread and/or, as some have suggested, a cylindrical rather than a conical spread. Personally, I think it needs a damage buff too.

EDIT:

Again, good points. If you're going to have a weapon that spreads its damage around, it should at least be pretty powerful.

That damn thing actually costs 800K, it's the most expensive weapon and it's also the worst for it's weight. It's really amazing how anyone could make that weapon and think "Hey here's a weapon worthy of being the most expensive!"

[boomboom517]

armyof1, on 23 March 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

That damn thing actually costs 800K, it's the most expensive weapon and it's also the worst for it's weight. It's really amazing how anyone could make that weapon and think "Hey here's a weapon worthy of being the most expensive!"

the weapon hasn't been implamented properly it lacks it slug mode and is not effective at range as it should be the only reason i wouldnt use it on table top is it can,t get ap ammo which i realy want in mwo

[keith]

easy fix for it. make the crits do extra dam to internal armor. hard concept there. screw that, we make it strip weps, now make it we make it strip your mech to nothing if u lose outside and let the pellet bounce around inside. that gives lbx a 14% chance to do double dam to internal armor. sounds good to me, since it misses 25% chance at 180m.

[Odins Fist]

Mister Haha, on 23 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I use the LBX10 and I find it to work effectively. There's some trolls out there that say it's crap, but then again, they usually get blown up by it.

Nah, (2) LBX-10s were used along time ago in my Atlas, and revisted many times to see what has changed, and I can say for certain that the LBX-10 lacks the concentrated punch to make it effective even at 100 meters where it should shine like the Sun.

Been over, and over on this issue, done many runs with it, and (1) AC-20 versus (2) LBX-10s is a no brainer, the AC-20 wins, and I have watched it win against bigger targets over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

For the tonnage it takes for (2) LBX-10s to be mounted, you're going backward for the rest of your loadout on "WHATEVER" Mech you are loading out..

The dice roll for (crits) is a joke sometimes, I hit an Atlas with what appeared to be bright red to no CT armor, missng left arm with (2) LBX-10 shots (at the same time) at 90 to 110 meters, while my (2)ER-Large Lasers were recycling, and it didn't drop, I got killed by his AC-20, and as I died a Raven on my team hit him with (2) medium Lasers and he dropped (friend). The same kind of scenario played out many times, so this isn't isolated, it's not an issue, and much has been posted about the LBX-10 lacking punch, so discussion on the matter just seems pointless by those that would praise it's supposed advantages that do not show themselves in practice.. Looks good on paper, fails in reality compared to the hype.

The (2)LBX-10 loadout isn't worth it, anyone that likes to use that setup indeed has my blessing to continue to do so.

Edited by Odins Fist, 23 March 2013 - 01:58 PM.

[Oppresor]

I use the LBX 10 Scattershot as my primary defensive weapon; it's fantastic when you get a good hit on a light that has you trapped in a circle of death. On advice from several other MechWarrior's I have ditched the MG Array that was supplementing the LBX and replaced the array with a AC2 Autocannon. I can confirm that this was a good move; the two complement each other nicely.

[Mikallo]

StandingInFire, on 23 March 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

My favorite solution for the LBX is to give it a "proximity fuse" (it fires out 1 shell then once it gets x distance from a surface/mech directly in front of it it explodes into the pellets) allowing it to be used at longer ranges then SRMs with the obvious tonnage drawbacks.

Edit:
This also prevents a repeat of the AC5/UAC5 case where 1 is better than the other in all situations since it will have a unique role.

While this would be cool, I think it would be hard to implement. The slug would have to constantly be calculating if a mech was within proximity and within trajectory.

That said, I have no idea how they stacked code to make MWO. There could be someone on staff who readis your post and shouts "BRILLIANT!" before pounding a Guinness.

Edited by Mikallo, 23 March 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[Sephlock]

Mikallo, on 23 March 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

While this would be cool, I think it would be hard to implement. The slug would have to constantly be calculating if a mech was within proximity and within trajectory.

That said, I have no idea how they stacked code to make MWO. There could be someone on staff who readis your post and shouts "BRILLIANT!" before pounding a Guinness.

Couldn't they just make a big hitbox, and as soon as something enters the hitbox, the spray is calculated as if the projectile was the barrel of a current lbx)?

[Mason Grimm]

Signal27, on 23 March 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Good work!

Now with the damage reduction to missiles, think you could do the same kind of research with SRMs?

SRMs with and without Artemis (current as of yesterday the 22nd)

[Mister Haha]

Ialti, on 23 March 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

The question isn't "how well do you use the LBX-AC10," it is instead "to what lengths do you have to go to use the LBX-AC10 well."

And the answer isn't "you're all trolls lololol," It's "good question, let's find out!"

Oh, so it shouldn't matter how well you're supposed to use a weapon? Why? All of these weapons take a certain amount of skill to wield, and really, the LB10 doesn't take that much. You just have to carry ordinance up to the enemy as a Splatcat would.

According to the stats I've hit 80% of the time with the LB10X (703/870) shots, and it comes out to 5,206 damage. That's 7.4 out of 10 damage every shot. I'd say that's very decent.

No this isn't a brag, but it definitely shows its effectiveness - I'm ranked #28 in my Jager w/o TAG so clearly the weapon works out just fine when stacked against the other configurations. I took out 5 of the 7 players descending upon me in a last stand yesterday with it.

But nooo... you have to go to serious lengths to walk into an enemy mech! Nobody ever walks into each other in a brawl, no sir.

Damage is fine, weapon is fine.

[Phaesphoros]

Mister Haha, on 24 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Oh, so it shouldn't matter how well you're supposed to use a weapon? Why? All of these weapons take a certain amount of skill to wield, and really, the LB10 doesn't take that much. You just have to carry ordinance up to the enemy as a Splatcat would.

I agree you don't have to have much skill to do some damage with LB 10-X AC (was one of my first favourite weapon on trial CN9-D).

Mister Haha, on 24 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

According to the stats I've hit 80% of the time with the LB10X (703/870) shots, and it comes out to 5,206 damage. That's 7.4 out of 10 damage every shot. I'd say that's very decent.

Seems like you're quite a skilled LB 10-X AC user. I think one could conclude your average distance to target for LB 10-X shots is less than 200 m. The questions are 1) are the dmg statistics reliable and 2) what can they tell us about the weapon.

Mister Haha, on 24 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

No this isn't a brag, but it definitely shows its effectiveness - I'm ranked #28 in my Jager w/o TAG so clearly the weapon works out just fine when stacked against the other configurations.

There are some issues with the metric used in the tournaments regarding their use as an argument here. One is: The LB 10-X AC simplifies to do some damage, that is, kill assists. My secondary test was conducted to show a possible problem of the LB 10-X AC: you cannot focus damage at about > 150 m distance to target.

Mister Haha, on 24 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

I took out 5 of the 7 players descending upon me in a last stand yesterday with it.

At 300 m, the LB 10-X AC does about the damage of an AC/5 or ML against a large target mech. Nobody complains about these other weapons inflicting too few damage. Of course, you can do damage with the LB 10-X AC. The question is, is it balanced?

Edit: I think, with enough skill, you can do the same amount of dmg average with the AC/10 at close range. But whatever skill you might have, you cannot do the same amount of dmg with an LB 10-X AC at more than, say, 150 m (actually, more than 50 m) compared to AC/10.

Edited by Phaesphoros, 24 March 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[Mister Haha]

Were you ever expected to focus damage with an LBX10 distances greater than 150, though? Yes the small laser weighs exponentially less, but what it shows is that players are able to close gaps almost twice the LB10's.

I think it's okay that the LB10 won't do as much damage as an AC10 from distance. If they all did the same thing there'd never be a reason to pick one of them.

I'd actually like for the falloff of the LB10 to be more interesting - greater damage than 10 at distances less than 90 meters (maybe 13 or 14), and much weaker over 200 meters. This would give it a very clear shotgun feel and role.

That said, I'm going to go give the AC10 a better look since it's probably better to be pinpointing an area as an overall strategy.... though if you miss the entire set of damage goes to 0, whereas the LB10 might still pick up some slack and do 3 or 4.

Edited by Mister Haha, 24 March 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[Rippthrough]

Mister Haha, on 23 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I use the LBX10 and I find it to work effectively. There's some trolls out there that say it's crap, but then again, they usually get blown up by it.

It's crap, come and ******* up with one.

[Mister Haha]

Rippthrough, on 24 March 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

It's crap, come and ******* up with one.

cool argument bro

yolo

[Sybreed]

Mister Haha, on 24 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Damage is fine, weapon is fine.

No and no

[Jman5]

The way I see it, the LBX-10 is the ideal imperfect weapon for imperfect servers. How many times have you aimed your ac/20 up perfectly only to register 0 damage? Or you aim perfectly to hit the right torso and hit the left arm instead?

LBX-10's spread allows you to at least do some damage to the place you were aiming.

edit: one more thing I will say in the LBX-10's defense is that it has a much, much tighter spread than the SRM-6.

Edited by Jman5, 24 March 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Quxudica]

Mister Haha, on 24 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Oh, so it shouldn't matter how well you're supposed to use a weapon? Why? All of these weapons take a certain amount of skill to wield, and really, the LB10 doesn't take that much. You just have to carry ordinance up to the enemy as a Splatcat would.

According to the stats I've hit 80% of the time with the LB10X (703/870) shots, and it comes out to 5,206 damage. That's 7.4 out of 10 damage every shot. I'd say that's very decent.

No this isn't a brag, but it definitely shows its effectiveness - I'm ranked #28 in my Jager w/o TAG so clearly the weapon works out just fine when stacked against the other configurations. I took out 5 of the 7 players descending upon me in a last stand yesterday with it.

But nooo... you have to go to serious lengths to walk into an enemy mech! Nobody ever walks into each other in a brawl, no sir.

Damage is fine, weapon is fine.

Alternatively, for one ton and one crit slot more, you could use an AC/10 and get 10 out of 10 damage every time with a much greater effective range.

[FrostCollar]

Jman5, on 24 March 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

The way I see it, the LBX-10 is the ideal imperfect weapon for imperfect servers. How many times have you aimed your ac/20 up perfectly only to register 0 damage? Or you aim perfectly to hit the right torso and hit the left arm instead?

LBX-10's spread allows you to at least do some damage to the place you were aiming.

The real trouble on the severs is lag, and the only solution for that will be host state rewind implementation for ballistic weapons (which is the next part of HSR on the dev's list). If the server says that Jenner is a bit to the left of where you think it is, the LBX-10's spread won't save you.

Your argument also works for the other side. Yes, the LBX 10 allows you to do at least some damage to the place you were aiming, but it also means a perfect shot will still spread a lot of damage to where you don't want it. In a game where aiming at damaged parts of your enemy is a core mechanic, that's a serious drawback.

[Rippthrough]

Mister Haha, on 24 March 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

cool argument bro

yolo

It doesn't need any arguement, it's way too heavy and spreads damage all over, it's useless past 270m and still suffers from the balistic fire delay. Waste of space atm.