67 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

SRMs are an actual 'crit-seeker.'

[PhoenixFire55]

In BT mechs go out and fight in the open field. In MWO nobody does that because they know if they stay in the open for 5 seconds they are gonna be toasted with LRMs. This is the reason why most of the matches turn out to be the trench battle, whoever loses patience first loses the game as well. Question is ... do we want MWO to be trench fighting like WWI?

If yes, then LRMs are just fine, if not - smth needs to be done in order to nerf them down. There are many options apart from reducing damage which I think make more sense:
- increase the spread (when all 60 missiles from single volley hit and hit same spot you know its not right, artemis or not, tag or not);
- decrease the amount of missiles per ton (again, in BT I don't know any mechs that can fire like 50 volleys of 60 missiles during a battle, here we see it all the time);
- bring back repair & rearm (shooting 2k+ missiles per game with artemis and paying nothing for it is ret@rded IMO).

Streaks however are a more serious issue IMO. Right now SSRM-2 acts like an SSRM-6 should in terms of damage. 4-5 volleys from two SSRM-2s that ALWAYS hit and a heavy / medium mech is gone. Also both in BT and TT game it is DAMN HARD to achieve lock with SSRMs and keep it. Here a light mech with SSRMs can keep a lock on mediums, heavies and assaults without breaking a sweat while same time for a heavier mech it is very hard to keep a lock on a light running around him. IMO make it equally hard or equally easy for them to aquire and keep locks with SSRMs - that would be balanced.

Biggest issue are SRMs still. There are supposed to do a lot of damage yes, but that damage is supposed to be spread all over the place even if you shoot an enemy that is 50m away. In MWO right now SRMs aren't spreading at all, if your aim is good you can still land all missiles even from six SRM-6s fired same time on a mech that is 270m away (the question of artemis remains - how the heck does the improved guidance system affect unguided missiles is beyond me). That should not happen, because while it does SRMs are the only weapon good for brawling. Ask yourself a question - how many brawler builds have you seen that had no SRMs? That should tell you if they are OP or not.

[Agent of Change]

I feel that missiles are close to where the should be right now. In fact there isn't much i would change.

SSRM's: About perfect bump the damage to 1 (+.2 over what we currently have) and call it good.

SRMS: Again damage to 1 and maybe a little tighter spread through about 120m (not pinpoint but a little tighter)

LRMs: Damage to to 1 and missile speed increased by 50%.

[PhoenixFire55]

MustrumRidcully, on 24 March 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

What mech can be killed with 40 damage? Even a Cicada can have 40 CT armour, and there are still 24 tons of internal structure to be broken through? Or do we only assume head shots here?
And you forgot to count heat sinks for both variations.

And just what is wrong about assuming headshots? Perfect weapon convergence does just that ... 2 PPCs, 4 PPCs, 66 PPCs doesn't matter, they all hit same spot. That shouldn't happen but it does. In classic BT you see a lot of headshots because head armor is 9 and head internal structure is 3. That means that ONE gauss rifle and in most cases ONE PPC is enough to headshot a mech. The whole 'double the armor compared to BT to increase games duration' thing is useless with perfect weapon convergence.

[PaintedWolf]

What about the fact that there are no TACs to missiles in MWO? That by itself nerfs SRMs greatly. Then there's weapon convergence, and the fact that HHs do not damage pilots, AND double armor.

Without TACs there is no real reason to even have SRMs. This was solved before with extra damage (a whole +0.5 extra, which somehow made them OP).

I would trade that .5 damage for TACs any day of the week, then at least they would be where they are in TT.

Agent of Change, on 25 March 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

I feel that missiles are close to where the should be right now. In fact there isn't much i would change.

SSRM's: About perfect bump the damage to 1 (+.2 over what we currently have) and call it good.

SRMS: Again damage to 1 and maybe a little tighter spread through about 120m (not pinpoint but a little tighter)

LRMs: Damage to to 1 and missile speed increased by 50%.

If SRMs and LRMs do the same damage, why even get SRMs at all?

[Oni Ralas]

Grayseven, on 25 March 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

Damage per ton per heat is spot on for a 1000m indirect fire weapon in my opinion. So is damage at this point.

Lemme say this again: LRM's are NOT indirect fire. Yes they are long range and can semi-home in on a target, but they still require me to:

1) Find target
2) Lock target
3) Launch while locked
4) Hold lock until hit


That is mechanically no different than any other weapon fired in game.

If this was an IF scenario, I would be able to fire from any point at someone elses confirmed lock and the missile would travel to the forward observers target. The orentation of my mech and point of origin would be irrelevant.

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LRM's fulfill a support weapon role. They allow you to soften up enemy mechs as they close if they aren't smart about cover. Boats are still scarily effective against mechs in the open, but I think more people are learning to respect LRMs and are using cover more effectively to minimize their effect...especially after the effect they were having before the hotfix.

There is no support role in MWO in current form. Support does not mean missile spam that do little to no damage. Support means coordinated attacks that can cripple an enemy force when used correctly. They aren't here merely to cater to brawlers looking to get the kills.

Quote

Boats are finding themselves to be targets worthy of quick dispatch even now, meaning that eschewing a few medium lasers for a few more tons of ammo is a path to quick destruction.

More mechs are moving away from massed LRM fire to a more balanced load out and are finding themselves much more effective. A pair of LRM 15's or 20's are enough to make mechs respect cover without denying the LRM owner defense against close in mechs. This is especially true if you have a few mechs sporting LRM's instead of just one with all of them.

When the weapon is returned to normal damage numbers, we'll see how the ballance goes. The concept of having a ballanced fit means that the "support" role is also (again) non-existant. Boats exist for a reason.

Quote

One of the scariest things I've seen was a match in Tourmaline where our light mech made a move on the middle node and 8 separate LRM launches left his armor in tatters since he had no where to hide from all of them.

Which is what happens to any mech standing in the open really. Same situation but with PPC and ballistic fire, you've got every alpine sniperfest match.

[Yankee77]

Budor, on 24 March 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

I really hope they dont buff them up to the level they were before the lermpocalypse. LRMs did to much damage prior to the patch on the 19th. Damage wise something inbetween now and how they worked prior to the 19th patch would be perfect.

They need to tone down ECM before overbuffing LRMs again.

Agreed.

The problem with LRMs right now is that the damage is too low considering how often they can actually be used. If ECM can shut down LRMs, then when they CAN be used they should pack a good punch (something like how it was before the patch that broke them).

Right now LRMs would be fine if ECM didn't stop them. They don't tear apart any target they hit, and they still do damage appropriate for their tonnage, BUT since they can easily be shut down by ECM the end result is they are woefully underpowered.

I'm specifically talking about the ECM disrupt effect, that stops LRMs from being used entirely. The cloak effect is fine when TAG. But so long as LRMs can be completely shut down by disrupt, LRMs HAVE to do major damage to be worth using at a competitive level (where opportunities to use them are limited).

The better solution is definitely to fix ECM, so that LRMs can keep their moderate damage and still be useful (as they can be used all the time).

Thank you.

Edited by Itkovian, 25 March 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Man, some of these people are beyond feeling their behind was injured over being wasted by missile boats and team-work.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 25 March 2013 - 05:56 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 March 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

And just what is wrong about assuming headshots? Perfect weapon convergence does just that ... 2 PPCs, 4 PPCs, 66 PPCs doesn't matter, they all hit same spot. That shouldn't happen but it does. In classic BT you see a lot of headshots because head armor is 9 and head internal structure is 3. That means that ONE gauss rifle and in most cases ONE PPC is enough to headshot a mech. The whole 'double the armor compared to BT to increase games duration' thing is useless with perfect weapon convergence.

Because head-shotting mechs isn't that easy that you could rely on it. Even if you succeed on half your attempts (and that's generous), that still means you have to actually shoot twice on average.

But hey, if head-shots become a problem (and who knows, maybe it is or will be so in the high ELO spheres I'll never reach), then maybe that is a sign we need to adjust head shot mechanics?

I'd suggest that head shots don't kill, just take out your HUD...

[PaintedWolf]

Okay you can say SRMs are as good as you want, but any sensible player will use a dual AC-20 jager. That is until the next "bug" demands another "hot fix".

[Grayseven]

Oni Ralas, on 25 March 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Lemme say this again: LRM's are NOT indirect fire. Yes they are long range and can semi-home in on a target, but they still require me to:

1) Find target
2) Lock target
3) Launch while locked
4) Hold lock until hit


That is mechanically no different than any other weapon fired in game.

If this was an IF scenario, I would be able to fire from any point at someone elses confirmed lock and the missile would travel to the forward observers target. The orentation of my mech and point of origin would be irrelevant.



There is no support role in MWO in current form. Support does not mean missile spam that do little to no damage. Support means coordinated attacks that can cripple an enemy force when used correctly. They aren't here merely to cater to brawlers looking to get the kills.



When the weapon is returned to normal damage numbers, we'll see how the ballance goes. The concept of having a ballanced fit means that the "support" role is also (again) non-existant. Boats exist for a reason.



Which is what happens to any mech standing in the open really. Same situation but with PPC and ballistic fire, you've got every alpine sniperfest match.

In order:

1) You do not need LoS, nor do you need to put your cross hair on target, or lead the target or the myriad other things direct fire weapons have to do. All you need is a mech to target and hold that target in order to lock on to that target and launch missiles that fly up into the air and come down from a height onto an enemy mech that you probably can't even see. That is not a direct fire weapon system.

2) There is a support role in any team game, including this one, and LRM's fit the bill as a support weapons system. They allow indirect fire at long ranges that only require an LRM firer to hold lock...which is easy to do if you have team mates in brawler builds targeting the mech they are fighting instead of jumping around from target to target in order to annoying enemies with Betty's voice.

3) Boats exist only because players are infatuated with individual stats. A team with one Stalker sporting 90 LRM tubes is weaker than a team with 8 mechs that have each equipped a 10 tube launcher. Take out the Stalker, you take out 90 tubes. Take out one of 8 mechs with a 10 tube and you still have 70 tubes left.

LRM's are much easier to use well than other weapons systems. Holding lock isn't hard as long as you have team mates that don't target hop all the time. Their ease of use means that upping their damage to pre-hot fix levels would make them (again) overpowered. You can still die from 90 LRM's, you just won't see 1800 points of damage come from one mech.

[PaintedWolf]

Grayseven, on 25 March 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

3) Boats exist only because players are infatuated with individual stats. A team with one Stalker sporting 90 LRM tubes is weaker than a team with 8 mechs that have each equipped a 10 tube launcher. Take out the Stalker, you take out 90 tubes. Take out one of 8 mechs with a 10 tube and you still have 70 tubes left.

You guys keep saying that and the boats keep winning, and then it is time for a "re-balance".

[PhoenixFire55]

MustrumRidcully, on 25 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Because head-shotting mechs isn't that easy that you could rely on it. Even if you succeed on half your attempts (and that's generous), that still means you have to actually shoot twice on average.

But hey, if head-shots become a problem (and who knows, maybe it is or will be so in the high ELO spheres I'll never reach), then maybe that is a sign we need to adjust head shot mechanics?

I'd suggest that head shots don't kill, just take out your HUD...

lol If only one out of two of my shots were headshots I'd be happy as hell. Problem isn't in headshots (that should be in the game without doubt), but rather in perfect weapon convergence for direct fire weapons and too little spread for all missile weapons. The 6 PPC Stalker monster isn't dangerous because of the fact that he can one-shot-head-shot any mech, but because he can one-shot-through-torso a lot of mechs, which in turn happen because ALL his PPCs hit exact same spot. You say even Cicada has 40 CT armor? Yes, true. But how much side torso armor does it have? How much rear side torso armor does it have? Nobody uses standart engines nowadays, which means if your 8-10 smth rear side armor is breached you can say bye bye. Same crap with 9 ML Hunchback. Same crap with Splat-Cat. Same crap with x4 LRM 15/20 boats. Weapons are just too accurate, spread isn't big enough.

[Xyroc]

Fate 6, on 24 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

I've got to say, I think the damage on LRMs and SRMs feels about right at this point. They strip armor and don't instantly destroy exposed sections of your mech.

Unfortunately I think they strip armor a bit too well (this is bug related, but I just want to be clear that it shouldn't just stay similar to what it is now). That is, you can't torso twist to spread damage effectively (mostly relevant vs LRMs), because the splash hits everything. This is particularly unfortunate for mechs like Dragons that run XL engines.

How do SRMs feel right? with only 1 or 2 launcher they are less effective than 1 or 2 Med Lasers

[Strucker]

Vrekgar, on 24 March 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

The hotfix is a flat nerf because they whined enough. Yes there was a bug but the developers could not fix it. So the devs just decided to flat nerf them until they "get around" to making them a weapon people will want to use if ever.

U mad bro?

Also I love your nerd rage, its really on par with the whole intelligent title of the topic.

So lemme break things down for everyone else.
The typical LRM boat these days is what? 5x LRM 20 Stalker? something like that?
So pre-hotfix 1 alpha volley had a potential yield of 180 damage, thats 9 AC20 rounds, 12 Gauss rounds, 18 AC10 rounds or PPC shots, you get the point.
Post-hotfix still yields a potential 70 damage, that is still alot for one alpha.
Your Splat-Cat with 6x SRM 6's pre-hotfix potential of 90 alpha, post-hotfix 56
Lets compare that to the most firepower avaliable for non-missile boating specs
Probably the chop-shop 3x Gauss Ilya for ballistic, that has the ability to put out 45 alpha after you sacrifice everything but the guns.
For energy users the 6x PPC Stalker which can put out 60 alpha in a volley, and overheats after 2 shots.

But some LRm's or SRM's miss, or don't hit the same place?
If a player overshoots and misses with an AC20 is it still a miss?
Please show me where it said that missiles, be they LRM or SRM, are suppose to be 100% pinpoint accurate.

End result, this patch has fixed the long overdue issue of missile boating, too many players got away with it for too long, it got a bit of a kick to even it out now all the noobs who can't 1 or 2 shot Atlas's (for those of you in the cave that's the beefiest mech there is to offer up) are freaking out and screaming at their computer screen.

[PhoenixFire55]

Beliall, on 25 March 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

How do SRMs feel right? with only 1 or 2 launcher they are less effective than 1 or 2 Med Lasers

Lets have an experiment. You put only 2 MLs on your centurion and I'll only put only 2 SRM-6s on mine. Then we'll do 10 duels and see who wins more. I bet 10k MC on myself.

[PaintedWolf]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 March 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

lol If only one out of two of my shots were headshots I'd be happy as hell. Problem isn't in headshots (that should be in the game without doubt), but rather in perfect weapon convergence for direct fire weapons and too little spread for all missile weapons. The 6 PPC Stalker monster isn't dangerous because of the fact that he can one-shot-head-shot any mech, but because he can one-shot-through-torso a lot of mechs, which in turn happen because ALL his PPCs hit exact same spot. You say even Cicada has 40 CT armor? Yes, true. But how much side torso armor does it have? How much rear side torso armor does it have? Nobody uses standart engines nowadays, which means if your 8-10 smth rear side armor is breached you can say bye bye. Same crap with 9 ML Hunchback. Same crap with Splat-Cat. Same crap with x4 LRM 15/20 boats. Weapons are just too accurate, spread isn't big enough.

Yes the only reason that these specialized designs work in a team game is because people are cheating. SRMs must be nerfed, LRMs must be nerfed, PPCs must be nerfed, MLs must be nerfed and weapons convergence must be eliminated for the "correct" strategies to win.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Fate 6, on 24 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

I've got to say, I think the damage on LRMs and SRMs feels about right at this point. They strip armor and don't instantly destroy exposed sections of your mech.

Unfortunately I think they strip armor a bit too well (this is bug related, but I just want to be clear that it shouldn't just stay similar to what it is now). That is, you can't torso twist to spread damage effectively (mostly relevant vs LRMs), because the splash hits everything. This is particularly unfortunate for mechs like Dragons that run XL engines.

I disagree. Obviously LRMs were way too powerful before, but now they are almost non-existant, replaced direct fire weapons (something LRMs used to keep in check). Additionally looking at their DSP and DPS/ton and factoring in the significant damage spread of these weapons I think adding another .2 to .3 damage increase per missile would be appropriate.
As for SRMs don't seem to be suffering as much, they are still popular and after being on the receiving end, I can verify they still hit very hard. Given their weight, heat and tonnage, they are still the most powerful weapons in the game.

[Valrin]

I think they should put the missiles back up to pre-nerf levels and remove splash damage entirely. I also think they should set the streak missile damage to be the same as LRMs as this never quite made sense to me why they did more damage than the dumb-fire SRMs. Assuming that the LRMs do less damage due to guidance systems within the missiles, does that not also follow for SSRMs?

[PhoenixFire55]

PaintedWolf, on 25 March 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Yes the only reason that these specialized designs work in a team game is because people are cheating. SRMs must be nerfed, LRMs must be nerfed, PPCs must be nerfed, MLs must be nerfed and weapons convergence must be eliminated for the "correct" strategies to win.

Please enlighten me what "correct" strategies are we talking about now? Because if "correct" means smth apart from the "lock-target-smb-else-is-keeping-for-me-press-button-for-the-win" strategy then I'm all for them.