206 replies to this topic

[Randalf Yorgen]

you know it is possible to do the PVE thing and have it run nicely with the PVP thing. PVE could be all out of Mech stuff like finding contracts or recruiting or gathering info on contracts, even Gambling. Also out of cockpit missions like espianoge or kidnapping of a guarded NPC or stealing a battlemech could be included. Call it city actions or whatever. Then when the Planetary stuff comes it's done as a PVP where the Invaders and Defenders are players. Think of it like a raid or a battleground. The City stuff, that anyone can do nets you some pocket change, say 10K c-bills and causes you to either gain or lose points with one faction or another. The Planetary stuff nets you the bigger rewards as in 100K+ c-bills, repairs, access to a ton of new parts etc. I really doubt this will ever happen but as in the old TT MW game you could build up your characters out of cockpt abilities with adventure points and mission points but then again so many players these days have never played any type of RP game where you wrote down who and what your character was and what abilities he had and then actually had to roll some dice to see if it worked that the concept might be lost to the ages.For those of you who remember those days, this one's for you.





I cried when I saw this again.

[Zakatak]

I say leave MWO to the PVP, and give us a true sequel by 2016. I love MWO, but we still don't have our MW5.

[JazzySteel]

Randalf Yorgen, on 01 June 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

you know it is possible to do the PVE thing and have it run nicely with the PVP thing. PVE could be all out of Mech stuff like finding contracts or recruiting or gathering info on contracts, even Gambling. Also out of cockpit missions like espianoge or kidnapping of a guarded NPC or stealing a battlemech could be included. Call it city actions or whatever. Then when the Planetary stuff comes it's done as a PVP where the Invaders and Defenders are players. Think of it like a raid or a battleground. The City stuff, that anyone can do nets you some pocket change, say 10K c-bills and causes you to either gain or lose points with one faction or another. The Planetary stuff nets you the bigger rewards as in 100K+ c-bills, repairs, access to a ton of new parts etc. I really doubt this will ever happen but as in the old TT MW game you could build up your characters out of cockpt abilities with adventure points and mission points but then again so many players these days have never played any type of RP game where you wrote down who and what your character was and what abilities he had and then actually had to roll some dice to see if it worked that the concept might be lost to the ages.For those of you who remember those days, this one's for you.





I cried when I saw this again.

Im the DM for my group's first playtest of DnD Next tomorrow.

[Blaze32]

Neanot, on 01 June 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

I have been thinking of a set of mission rules for PvP that might fit in here quite well. Instead of x vs x, where you go into a mission knowing what you're up against (roughly), I have been envisioning x vs ?.

Basically, you would chose a mission where you know what your objective is, and how many players will be on your side with you, but not what the enemy objective is, or what their strength would be. Examples of this are as follows:

• Scouting.
  
  
  
  1 Friendly mech (you) on your own, having been assigned to scout out an area to look for possible bases or patrols. Ahead of time, you don't know what you will face, but it could be any of 1 enemy scout doing the same as you, a patrol of 2 enemies on the look-out for invaders, or a full lance of enemies defending a base.
  
  Your main objective is to get in, get some sensor data, and get back out without dying. The harder the mission (ie the more mechs you have to face/avoid) the greater the reward.
  
• Patrol.
  
  
  
  2 Friendly mechs (you and 1 other) are on patrol on the front lines, looking for interlopers. You may find a single scout mech trying to get in and out without being seen, or you may clash with an enemy patrol of 2, or you may come across a full lance of mechs trying to push passed you to get to a base (in a different mission).
  
  Your objective is siply to destroy any mechs that come your way, again gaining more rewards for the greater number of enemies, and their own associated missions.
  
• Full Incursion.
  
  
  
  A full lance of friendlies puching through the enemy lines to get to a deeper objective. That objective may be near or far, and there may be other obstacles to overcome, so you may have to take out a single scout to prevent him from warning his command, or you may stumble on a 2-man patrol, or even make it to the base, in which case you would be tasked with destroying the base.
  
• Base Defence.
  
  
  
  A full lance of friendlies, this time defending a fixed asset from unknown invaders. This would either be from a single scout or a full incusion.

These missions would feel more like PvE than PvP because the objective is not simply to kill the enemy before they kill you, but to achieve some additional objectives, like slip passed patrols without being seen, or scout-n-get-out. It would also allow you to play PvP without needing to find a full lance to play with, as you could do it solo on your side (scout) or in a pair (patrol).


You could even string a sequence of these together in a mission meta-arc, for example a successful scout mission unlocks a full incursion mission, or a successful patrol unlocks a base defence.

Something of this nature would give more depth to the missions, and give an experience that is more like PvE, but retains the true PvP nature.

That last one would be cool! I would love a wave game where it got harder and harder!!

[Yeach]

Randalf Yorgen, on 01 June 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

I cried when I saw this again.

Yup and it also reminded me of Tombs of Primeval Kings for Guildwars.
I mean the part about attacking the Darkness and getting a Knife of ogreslaying +9.

[Hanged Man]

I am equally comfortable with the game's focus remaining on competitive play or branching out to include PVE. The old Mechwarrior games' campaigns were tons of fun for me, and I wouldn't be upset to see them return.

[Ian]

Quote

PVE confounds me, I personally do not get joy from shooting mindless NPC's, that being said I know there are TONS of carebears that do. So long as the PVE aspect monetarliy supports the overall PVP meta game and PVE does NOT affect the end game RvR I have no problem with the dev's throwing the carebears a bone.

BUT PVE MUST NOT HAVE ANY R/R META GAME CONSEQUENCES. For example a group of NPC killing grind monkeys should not affect who controls what planets or give bonues to the player factions that fights in the pvp battles.

The mintue a faction of PVE players grinding NPC's can control a planet without a PVP battle i walk away from the game

I totally agree that PvE should not affect the Meta-game at all. But is there any need for the insults?

[sabotssnake]

I personally feel that this game should have been Mechwarrior 5 from the outset with a single player campaign and multiplayer capability. I know the devs have said they tried to get MW5 going but found the funding and support hard to come by. Bad timing, economic climate, lack of interest, who really knows but the devs how hard they did or didn't try to get the game done. Instead we have another PvP MMO game which I find to be boring and honestly somewhat lazy in terms of dev development. Dump the players into an environment and let them do their own thing gets old very fast. Despite how it sounds I'm not bashing the devs for this game in general. In fact I am extremely pleased that Mechwarrior has been resurrected. I just feel there could have been a happy marriage of single and multiplayer game modes that could have been a far superior product due to the sum of its parts rather than the concentration on one aspect to the exclusion of the other.

Story telling has always been a major part of the battletech universe because of the extensive lore behind it. In tabletop you didn't just drop some mech counters on a board and start rolling dice to see who shoots who, there was a reason and story behind the battle. A carefully made campaign with cutscenes done in a modern gaming engine would be a sight to behold, and is a great way to introduce the lore and history of the battletech universe to the curent generation of gamers. Depending on how the meta game is designed there maybe some backstory to what players are trying to achieve with contracts etc, but I suspect it will be pretty marginal at best and not a real substitute.

Choice. By limiting the game development to only PvP without PvE or SP you limit the player pool that would otherwise give the game a chance. For its financial and longterm viability, this game needs to attract the highest amount of players as possible and retain them for a long period of time. Sure there will be a core of players that will continue playing regardless but I predict there will be definite slumps in interest as time goes by. Well obviously Sherlock you say. Yes there will be a massive interest in the game at launch when it's all new and shiney, but after a few months when the purely PvP matches get stale, and the dropship matches get repetitive, there will be player migration away from the game. When/if the clans become playable there will again be a massive influx of players looking to try out the new gear. Several more months go by and player levels will again drop as nothing new has been introduced. Clan equipment overpowers IS gear and potentially drives players away. Same old PvP matches. Rinse and repeat. So would a single player campaign keep the game alive longer than a strictly PvP game? No. It is the synthesis of both that would keep it afloat. A SP campaign widens the potential player base and could also introduce players to PvP who would normally have not bothered with such a thing. Not everyone likes or particulary cares for the player v player experience. Personally I don't for the simple reason: because of other players. I despise how these games can quickly get bogged down in the politics, ranting and raving, ego showoffs that invariable accompany human behaviour. You only have to read through these forums to get a taste of how bad things can get when we can't even have a simple discussion about different play styles before the name calling and insults start worming their way in.

Solutions. Well we are stuck with PvP for now. Although I would love a full campaign, I realise that is not going to happen anytime soon unfortunately. Personally what I would like to see included is the ability to play offline similar to the bot matches of MW4 and cross it with the offline aspect of COD Black Ops. Basically a player could have the option of generating a character for either online or offline play. The offline play would include everything that has been created for online, all assets etc, gain credits and xp as you would in online play - BUT whatever you do does not influence your online character. They are completely seperate and distinct entities. This would allow players who dislike PvP to experience MWO when they might not have otherwise. It would be a training ground for combat and mech builds, and explore the different ability trees before going online competetive. It would allow players to play anywhere, anytime regardless of bad internet connections or lack of friends to play with. For those players who actually want to pilot an assault mech with other assault mechs against assault mechs, this would be the way to do it without restriction and forum nay sayers. Store items could still be bought for offline use so there would not be a decrease in revenue for PGI. Because all in game assets are used between offline and online at this stage, only the development of bot AI would be necessary. Later should the game become profitable and popular, single and co-op missions and campaigns could be created and sold to keep things new and interesting leading hopefully to a fully realised MW5.

There is a reason previous mechwarrior titles are remembered so fondly and still played today after years since their release. For some it's the single player campaign, some the multiplayer, and for others both. Would these games remain as popular now if there hadn't been the inclusion of both play formats and the choice to decide what suits a particular gamer's style? I seriously doubt that. Hopefully PGI recognises this and will endevour in the future to intergrate PvE and SP elements into MWO for its continued success and longevity . Afterall if it MWO was really only about player v player, it would have been called MechwarriorS Online, not Mechwarrior Online

[Zaxzia]

Okay I'm all for missions and story lines (even started a thread on it somewhere), however I don't see why missions and story lines can't be added while still including the PvP element.

There is a large difference between a mindless Free-for-all match and a match with objectives.

Why not make it so it's set up like this.

I go to my house mission guy, and pick up the latest missions. I am to pick my lance and go capture and secure an important communications locations. I then look for a lance who needs this mission, or just wants to go on it.

A member from a different house has collected a different mission. "We have secured our hold on an important communications array. Today we received intel that another house is going to try to overtake it. Select your team and defend the communications location at all cost." This member then selects their team and joins the mission.

It could even be set up so that every day you log in, you can go to you mission adviser or whatever and collect the daily missions quest. That would at least ensure that everyone were on the same missions, so that people always had the battles.

So for example on one day House Marik players get the capture the location mission, and House Liao players get the defend the point mission. Then the next day it rotates, or something.

In this way it would still be PvP but it would have the mission style and storyline element to it.

[Beazle]

I would like to see the PVE and PVP aspects remain completely separated.

So many games have tried to merge the two, and generated disgust from one side or the other.

I don't want to deal with some UBER-mech made from salvaged supertech found in some PVE content when i get on to PVP, nor do i want people grinding out easy C-Bills in PVE and then turning aroudn and using them for an advantage in PVP.

That said, i would really love to see a PVE campaign implemented (as a completely separate game), especially with a co-op function. You and some friends (or bots if you have none) managing a Merc unit through a constantly updated universe, with some random type contracts thrown in. That would get money from me on a regular (subscription?) basis.

[Tanith]

I think a small training PVE section, which if completed gives a badge of honor, and maybe a discount on first upgrade would be good thing for those new to the game.

[LordDeathStrike]

the only kind of pve that would work with mwo, would be a testing ground type thing, missions for taking a new design and smashing up npc test dummies to check your heat curve/fighting style. ammo would still be used and cost you money if you used a gun/missile weapon. you could add live fire on the dummies to make sure you are actively paying attn to being shot, repair costs would of course ensue.

other then that what good is a mission to kill npc whatevers, to artificially inflate your ego? it was an ai, it cant alter its fighting style on the fly, its running on a script and will fight the same way 100000000 times in a row, and die to you every time.

mwo has the best kind of pvp, when you are done theres no respawn, even in the multi mech match mode, your mech you just lost is toast till you fix it after the game, so theres something on the line when you lose. you go in knowing that you have to work with your team, or you will all die horribly and lose and burn in hells damnation.

and theres something fun about being out there, when you know that at any moment if you screw up or flinch you could be out for the rest of the game cause theres no respawning. I for one will be out there in the shadows the the trees, watching you, waiting for such moments, putting gauss slugs into your head or around the next corner in that city map, with an ac and a ton of med lasers and srms waiting to blow you too bits.

its exilerating like that, you dont get that feeling killing ai that always do the same thing every time. real opponents learn and adapt, they make you work for that kill alot more often then cpu for brains does.

[Critical Rocket]

I guess if they did PVE in the far future after launch, maybe it could be against the inevitable clan invasion backdrop. When clan mechs are added for the PVP part of the game, it would be fun to play co-op missions against superior clan mechs. Limitations would be inner sphere mechs only and the rewards could be minor things like C-bills etc. It would be a good way to test mech builds and practice with new mechs.

I don't think it needs to added though since the PVP aspect is going to be so popular anyway, and I agree that any PVE elements should have no bearing on planet control etc. It would be a fun distraction for friends to party up in and stomp come comps

[Tyra]

They could easily handle it the way Turbine handles it(where you can buy quest packs for zones, which also unlocks dungeons in those zones). You spend about 10-20 bucks to unlock mission packs. These mission packs could be played cooperatively or solo. You'd earn gear/c-bills that only work in Coop mode.

It would still be 'online' and multiplayer, if you're playing in a coop mode. Not much different from running dungeons in a standard MMO.

If they do it right it won't take away from the PvP aspect. I suspect they'd make enough money on coop packs to upkeep creating/debugging that mode.

They obviously plan on introducing some kind of PvE aspect with some of their comments about clans dropping into the middle of matches.

[Oswin Aurelius]

Just Saiyan, the Devs have already stated that PvE is quite possible in the future, but first they want to push out a core F2P PvP mode/game.

It makes sense, you balance everything through the PvP, then you can make even more immersive PvE once they're done polishing up the core of the game.

[Chunkymonkey]

How about a Clan Invasion Campaing?

[Rabid Dutchman]

GrizzlyViking, on 01 June 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

PvE is fine with me as long as they keep it strictlly separated from PvP with no connection whatsoever other than to tell stories or test Mech designs.

The day they connect some type of reward to PvE that can be used in PvP will be the beginning of the end for MWO.

Ok, I need to ask: What games are you playing where this is an issue? The only genre I can think of where PvE directly impacts what gear you have for PvP is an MMORPG. But in games with separate PvE and PvP, what game out there awards you "God-mode" or whatever in multiplayer for playing the campaign?
I seriously don't get how this is a concern. If you like PvP: Good for you! I do too! I'm excited to kick some 50 ton A$$. But guess what: I and many others also like PvE, and we would like to play that as well. But here's the best part,

WE CAN HAVE PvE AND PvP! IT'S ALLOWED! IT'S NOT AGAINST THE RULES!

It's not a choice between the two, implementing PvE won't delete PvP from the servers.

[Rot Wulf]

GrizzlyViking, on 01 June 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

PvE is fine with me as long as they keep it strictlly separated from PvP with no connection whatsoever other than to tell stories or test Mech designs.

The day they connect some type of reward to PvE that can be used in PvP will be the beginning of the end for MWO.

The day that equal reward for equal time played doesn't advance you is the day that the PVE'r demands a refund for their campaign purchase. For you I think this would mean that any PVE would mean the end of MWO, which since they are looking at it seems somewhat likely. PVE would HAVE to reward accomplishment, C-bills/parts/XP/etc. Since this is battletech by the TT rules, there is no super uber I win stat like has choked PVP in SWTOR and Rift. I can see no way for a PVE add on that sells, that doesn't have potential impact on the pvp side of things.

PVE with no reward will simply not sell to the point to be worth having. That is PGI would not recoup their investment. So the question becomes do they grow their customer base more by having PVE then they loose PVP players who can not accept PVE having rewards. Looking at other FTP games, the answer to me is obvious. PVE sells to more people total, than PVP sells to. PGI wants to make money, so it becomes clear to me that at some point there will be PVE content with rewards, for this project to make as much money as it can make.

As a player it is in your interest for PGI to make money (profit) on MWO as it is that money that will turn into more mech designs, maps, etc. No FTP game is ever FTP, if you have never put cash of your own in, someone else is paying your way by paying for themselves as well as covering your costs. I can give PGI at least ten names that will not pick this game up before the release of PVE content. Being a hybrid player (one of those crazies who likes both PVE and PVP content), I can see both sides of this issue. I hate having someone with uber pve gained gear with no ability in pvp being saddled on my team, but then I want PGI to have their dollars (both canadian and US) and bring in more cool stuff to play with.

[akaChrisHimself]

I'm in favor of PvE just so their is something productive you can do without having to organize a lance of people and strategize. Hopping online and killing some NPCs and getting some salvage/c-bills is nice to do without having to find teammates or if you only have a small amount of time.

[Revage]

LordDeathStrike, on 02 June 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

other then that what good is a mission to kill npc whatevers, to artificially inflate your ego? it was an ai, it cant alter its fighting style on the fly, its running on a script and will fight the same way 100000000 times in a row, and die to you every time.

To put a fine point on it: Some people suck at PvP. They might also suck at PvE. Some folks haven't played Mechwarrior since its first or second game, and may have NO idea what is effective. No one chastises a soldier for having learned to aim and fire on targets before firing on real people, and albeit at far lower stakes, you can apply the same logic here. Some people are going to NEED a controlled environment to learn how to play this game, and if they're constantly getting owned in PvP, they may never get there. Furthermore, playing off the issue of satisfaction, what satisfaction will hard-core PvP'ers get from owning noobs over and over? That's just as artificially inflating, and more so, since the AI at least can be trusted to have enough heat sinks on its mech.

A PvE aspect will be important for drawing in the noobs who can develop their play style in peace without getting ribbed by team mates for suckin' or disappointing skilled players on the other side by being too easy. The AI may never change tactics very drastically, but the player will evolve, and that will keep it interesting for them, and when they wander over to the PvP side, they'd be worth the effort, their team won't be dragged down, and the player base will be broadened by their having had an environment to play and test the waters in before stepping into the bigger pool of PvP.

Rewards are also important for PvE as well to keep the folks interested, and just for some variety. Couple posters seemed concerned that people would be able to get comparable rewards in PvE as PvP.. but I'm not seeing how that's a real concern. If you're worried they'll never switch over, there are so many arguments that PvP is more interesting and PvE is boring; why wouldn't they eventually switch? Or worried that folks will grind PvE and get an unfair equipment advantage.. so many arguments are also mingled with the PvE having less variability and therefore being less skillful, so wouldn't they still be out-skilled even if not overwhelmingly out-gunned?

A last consideration here is that, similar to the suggestion for gambling on mech-combat, the PvE aspect would add a function that could be played when a person has a poor internet connection or some other limitation that precludes them from PvP'ing.

Edited by Revage, 02 June 2012 - 08:28 AM.