143 replies to this topic

[DisasterTheory]

LOL so it has come to this, You b!tched and complained about the dual AC 20 catapult for months and now that we have the jager its on to a new mech to complain about. Dual and even triple AC20 and UAC20 mechs are a reality and PGI will nerf the kell out of them to make the cry babies happy. Just look at the recent K2 NINJA-NERF with the torso SPEED gimped worse than an atlas.

[John Norad]

jay35, on 01 April 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

Key word "TT". This isn't TT, (..)

Unfortunately. In some aspects, the TT works better.

jay35, on 01 April 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

(..) this is a realtime FPS game and needs that doubled armor in order to make it even remotely enjoyable.

It's nothing but a fallacy to think that this is a necessary implication. MWO in it's current form needs double armor, because aiming and hitting is easier than in the TT and you have pinpoint accuracy to boot.
If you'd hit every time with every weapon and minimum spread in the TT, it would be just as broken and unfun as MWO with standard armor.

jay35, on 01 April 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

In tabletop, we don't leave our mech hiding behind a rock the entire round in order for it to last more than one salvo, and we shouldn't be doing that in real-time either.

Actually that or something similar (jumping into heavy woods..) happens quite a lot on the TT. I think tactical maneuvering is something very good. It spices up the gameplay and makes it something more interesting than a dull slugfest. It just shouldn't be too prevalent. Too much sneaking around and hiding behind cover makes the game boring, of course.

jay35, on 01 April 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

We also control more than one mech in TT, (..)

That is definitely not always the case. But of course this can and very likely will be the reason for the resulting behavior. If you control a lance or more, you tend to take more risk and be more offensive. If you control one mech, you're acting a lot more cautious, even on the TT, and especially when it's an official ranking game of some BT league.

jay35, on 01 April 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

(..) and there are other differences as well.

Which? No really, I'm asking out of curiosity, since the better the Devs understand the differences between the TT and the computer game, the better they should be able to adjust and compensate for it.

jay35, on 01 April 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

So while you may be correct about the equivalency, the AC40 Jager also demonstrates why that doubled armor value is necessary.

Yes, because the FPS does in fact not adhere to the TT rules. If it did (harder to hit, more spread), double armor wouldn't be necessary. Fight prolonging, thus helpful, probably. But not necessary, as in fun preserving.
The thing is, on the TT an AC20 can quickly ruin your day. But it's not exactly trivial to make that happen. In the current MWO implementation, you will hit, so it will/would happen.

[Bobzilla]

I use either dual ac/20 or dual UAC/5. I do more damage with the UAC's and last longer, but I get more kills with the AC/20's. So for me they are about the same. I would rather go up against 20's, but it sucks getting caught off guard by them.

I also think the current state of LRM's is causing this build to be more viable than it should be.

[Joseph Mallan]

jay35, on 01 April 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

Key word "TT". This isn't TT, this is a realtime FPS game and needs that doubled armor in order to make it even remotely enjoyable. In tabletop, we don't leave our mech hiding behind a rock the entire round in order for it to last more than one salvo, and we shouldn't be doing that in real-time either. We also control more than one mech in TT, and there are other differences as well. So while you may be correct about the equivalency, the AC40 Jager also demonstrates why that doubled armor value is necessary.

No? Really? I had no idea! Guess that's why I can't reach into my monitor and move my Mini!

We shouldn't have to hide behind yada yada... Why Not? We should fear being killed in a blink it is a combat game after all. Is it disappointing to get killed in less than a minute? Sure it is, but if you make a mistake (as I sometimes do) you pay for it. The AC40 Jager is showing you what a single AC 20 felt like for nearly 30 years in MW and TT!

The down side to my AC40Jager(Jagerbomb) I have to get close to get the real power, It's kinda slow (70ish KpH with speed tweaks), and the hit boxes are unforgiving. Is it a powerhouse? Oh Yeah. Is it unbeatable (30/18 KD), not really it's just a good finisher Mech.

Bobzilla, on 01 April 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

I use either dual ac/20 or dual UAC/5. I do more damage with the UAC's and last longer, but I get more kills with the AC/20's. So for me they are about the same. I would rather go up against 20's, but it sucks getting caught off guard by them.

I also think the current state of LRM's is causing this build to be more viable than it should be.

Heck yes. In my Missile boat days, this was the type Mech I looked for first. Rain Missiles on it till it died or was weakened for my brawlers to finish easy.

[jay35]

John Norad, on 01 April 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

stuff

Arguing for reducing aiming accuracy or other artificial screwing with people's ability to aim is also wrong, as that, too, is not fun or enjoyable in an FPS game. They made the right decision to up the survivability of the mechs in order to make the game enjoyable. Whether doubling the armor value was the right way to go about this might be questionable, but screwing with people's aim is guaranteed to turn way more people off than double armor values. That said, perhaps going with stock armor values but halving weapon damage might have made for the same added endurance without as much grief. Ehh, probably not. Probably still have a forum full of grief.

Edited by jay35, 01 April 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 April 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

The AC40 Jager is showing you what a single AC 20 felt like for nearly 30 years in MW and TT!

QFT

Anyone remember what the various AC20s did in MW2? Nothing but

*"You just got half your mech blown up" sound*

Critical hit. Weapon destroyed.

Critical hit. Heat. Sink.

Critical Hit. Weapon destroyed.

Critical hit. Heat Sink.

[jay35]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 April 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

QFT

Anyone remember what the various AC20s did in MW2?

I honestly don't. I just remember skating around with directional jumpjets and 28.8kbaud modem lag.

[Royalewithcheese]

jay35, on 01 April 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

skating around with directional jumpjets

Haha this (and MW4) is why poptarting complaints for MWO are a little bit funny to me

[Joseph Mallan]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 April 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

QFT

Anyone remember what the various AC20s did in MW2? Nothing but

*"You just got half your mech blown up" sound*

Critical hit. Weapon destroyed.

Critical hit. Heat. Sink.

Critical Hit. Weapon destroyed.

Critical hit. Heat Sink.

LOL What I remember was my Dire Wolf with 3 Gauss and 2 ERPPC in MW2. and Betty's sweet voice announcing, "Enemy Mech Destroyed." Repeatedly!
...Without ever shutting down!!!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 01 April 2013 - 07:12 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I always had the feeling the typical way a Battletech game runs for me is:

"Oh, a random hit to the head! Pilot Instantly Dead"
"Oh, through-armour-crit! Engine Crit! +5 heat every tun!"
"Mech falls while turning a corner. PIlot takes damage. Pilot is unconcious!"

If I was a Battletech designer, I'd get rid of random extremes like this ASAP.

[XSerjo]

subgenius, on 31 March 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

No, they really aren't. We had exactly the same pinpoint convergence in all other Mechwarrior games. If anything, it is more distributed now that arm mounted weapons track separately! Despite what some in the boardgame crowd would like (and I'm not knocking them, I love tabletop gaming) precise component targeting has always been a part of PC Mechwarrior. Nothing new to see here.
...

It's new game and new challenges. Arm mounted weapons now can track with torso mounted (with ArmLock) - there're no damage spread.

I don't vote against pinpoint convergence, I vote against pinpoint convergence at all ranges. So torso mounted weapons should have fixed convergence distance (like wing guns on WWII airplanes), weapons in arms without lower actuators should have huge minimal convergence distance. And weapons in arms with lower actuators will be the most flexible and useful.

That may solve problem of boating on "walking weapon platforms" like stalker, catapult, jagermech, etc.

[Quxudica]

StaggerCheck, on 25 March 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

I am sorry, but what difference does it make if the JaggerMech can carry two AC/20s? The K2 has been around a long time and we have seen the exact same thing. If anything, I'm happy to see Jags do this. Unless they're peeking over hills with their higher mounted arm cannons, I don't see the upside.

Dual AC20 builds have indeed been around a very long time. I think the problem is that until recently those builds had to sacrifice so much that they weren't a big deal. Initial AC40 Cats were slow, lightly armored, had very low ammo, and ran insanely hot. These days with double heat sinks, endosteel, engine tweaks and the better hard point lay out of jaegers you can get an AC40 build running as fast as a splatcat (nearly 80 kph with speed tweak) that run plenty of ammo and heat is a non-issue.

The only real defense against AC40 builds is keeping them at range, but with them able to hit such a high speed it's not possible for the vast majority of builds - especially considering they have much greater range then splatcats did.

I really dislike fighting them personally, I kill them more often then not but they only need one or two shots (alphas..) to badly damage me which never feels anything but cheap.

[MustrumRidcully]

Quxudica, on 01 April 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Dual AC20 builds have indeed been around a very long time. I think the problem is that until recently those builds had to sacrifice so much that they weren't a big deal. Initial AC40 Cats were slow, lightly armored, had very low ammo, and ran insanely hot. These days with double heat sinks, endosteel, engine tweaks and the better hard point lay out of jaegers you can get an AC40 build running as fast as a splatcat (nearly 80 kph with speed tweak) that run plenty of ammo and heat is a non-issue.

The only real defense against AC40 builds is keeping them at range, but with them able to hit such a high speed it's not possible for the vast majority of builds - especially considering they have much greater range then splatcats did.

I really dislike fighting them personally, I kill them more often then not but they only need one or two shots (alphas..) to badly damage me which never feels anything but cheap.

AC/20 Cats weren't lightly armoured. Except in the arms, because they didn't need those.

But several things have changed with the intro of the Jagermech
1) Catapult twist rate nerfs
2) Missile Nerf/ImprovedHotFix nerfing Splatapults
3) Jagermech is the new mech on the field.

[Glythe]

AC 40 is a glass cannon when you get right down to brass tacks. But if my team will help me at all I usually end up with 2-3 kills. It's quite easy to get 4 kills in one game depending on who you run into. And when I mean 4 kills I mean that you're doing ALL the damage yourself to the target. The AC/20 really hurts when you double tap.

It's not OP as using AC/20s actually requires good aim (unlike PPCs). The AC/20 has a realistic effective range of 400m unless the target is stationary or oblivious. It is a very slow projectile that you can rather easily dodge or block.The realistic best case scenario is that they have 35 shots. If the enemy team is heavy enough they can almost stand still and he won't have enough ammo for them all. If the enemy team is light enough he will waste a lot of ammo looking for the killshot.




Now then.... if you're a no talent hack and can only shoot it in tunnels or within 100-200m that's another thing.

[Brynstar]

What's the matter with Rats?

[Odin]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 April 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Because of double armor a dual weapon in the MMO equals the hitting power of a single weapon TT. It takes twice as much gun to do the equivalent armor damage per salvo. This is what a AC20 is supposed to hit like! It is a Mech wrecking Hammer of Pain. That we need two of them to get this level of effect makes me sad.

6 PPC Stalkers... That is how hard 3 PPCs are supposed to hit you. The Awesome is supposed to be that painful with 3 PPCs.

Exactly my thoughts.

Big weapon nerf..... cause otherwise the boating support in this game would not be possible. In addition to that, the armor boost makes weapons feel less potent/effective ...


IMO PGI wants longer lasting fights: more action on screen = more fun. Once we have state rewind for ballistics, we'll get the next AC20 nerf - after the intro of the Jäger, I bet! All in all the Gauss and AC20 nerf, which came with the Jäger is annoying. By now, I get less critical hits with my dual AC20 then I had with the single one before the Jäger.






Odin

[Just wanna play]

PaintedWolf, on 25 March 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

Can't wait for those ultra-AC 20s. And MASC.

when are those coming exactly? 2 uac/20s + king crab = FUNNNN!!!!

Grayseven, on 25 March 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

I treat Jagers the same as I treat Catapults...something to stay away from and to hit from range. I assume all of them have dual 20's (or 6 SRM6's, or 4 ERPPC's). I am not going to make it easy for them to core me.

In essence I've learned that any Cat or Jager running towards me is something I want to stay away from...

being the one usual in the phract rushing at people, i can understand your logic pretty well, i would do the same, of course, i now pack some weapons with better distance thx to the latest long rang heavy maps

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

liku, on 25 March 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

Yes, sometime this is a pack of 8 of them sync dropping in the tunnel!

• Like rats, they like closed and cramped place like tunnel.
  
• Like rats, tey pack and swarm.
  
• Their bit is venomous and you'll die quick it you dont treat the wound properly.

The only solution, like against all nuisible, is to destroy them


So this is a non-ranting post (and off course useless) but i wanted to point that similarity.

I was out of the game for some time, and i discivered this..and then i realised they were not Medium but assault Heavy class

And i'm learning to deal with them, it's fun!


I ran against 6 of them in the tunnel (they really like Frozen Colony.... but on Alpine... they feel like popcorn )

the best i came up, was to fight, torso twisting like a mad man, full stalker armor plus XL engine helped a bit , i almost cored 2 before going... and instead of fleeing, i wanted to deal the more damage i could and make them FF the most, giving my team an oportunity to cleanse what was left outside....

finished with 4 assist (post-mortal off course) but it was great


I have to learn for their hitbox and armor stats, but i love them more than the splashcat (too fragile )


see you in the battlefield!




Come share your pestcontrol strategies

--- edit ---
put some sentence with bigger letter, corrected some mistakes.

Bless your warrior ways. You must be a trueborn as the rest just buckle and cry when having to deal with new challenges.

<S>

[subgenius]

XSerjo, on 01 April 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

It's new game and new challenges. Arm mounted weapons now can track with torso mounted (with ArmLock) - there're no damage spread. I don't vote against pinpoint convergence, I vote against pinpoint convergence at all ranges. So torso mounted weapons should have fixed convergence distance (like wing guns on WWII airplanes), weapons in arms without lower actuators should have huge minimal convergence distance. And weapons in arms with lower actuators will be the most flexible and useful. That may solve problem of boating on "walking weapon platforms" like stalker, catapult, jagermech, etc.

Did you just seriously argue that arm lock improves targeting abilities?

We're not piloting WWII airplanes, we are driving state of the future art walking tanks of death. You keep insisting that something is new and different this time around, but your desire to have reduced weapon convergence is something that has never, ever been in Mechwarrior. Why would they possibly want to introduce target uncertainty now? Do you see how much of a pain that would be to manage and visually display for multiple projectile speed weapons? Torso and arm weapons have always been able to converge at any range. This isn't new. When I point the reticle at a target, I want my shots to go there, simple as that. One day when state rewind is finished, I might even get my wish...

[Fenris Krinkovich]