Jump to content

P!mp My Ride {Mech Optimization Thread}


981 replies to this topic

#21 coolnames

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 302 posts

Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:11 PM

View PostProtection, on 25 March 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:



If you really want that speed, then yes it's about as good as it is going to get.


Here's the thing I don't like about this build -- the 360 STD engine is really, really expensive (tonnage-wise), compared to the 350 STD. You are paying 3.5 tons for about 1.8 kph. And it just seems a little low on firepower for an Atlas. But yes, it is well optimized.

Another consideration might be to do it as an Atlas RS:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0fc0b67dc8afa17
or
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...38e60f43d6f910b


Thanks :D

#22 WardenWolf

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • 1,684 posts
  • LocationTerra

Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:28 PM

View PostIncorporeaL GhosT, on 25 March 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Alriiiiight then,

Time to get you guys some work.

The Situation
I am at the moment running a FLAME. I am farming money for my XL Engine. Until then, I have to compete with my 300Std Engine.

What I want
Hence, I want a FLAME Build with Std 300 Engine and with a maximum of 3 different weapon systems. Medium Lasers and Large Lasers are in this case considered as different. That means, I want to run that thing with 3 Weapon Groups.

A few more conditions:
Endo Steel and DHS are installed.
Don't put LBX on this build, it's too expensive.
I don't like LRMs.

I am very curious, guys!

Given your conditions, particularly the use of the Std 300 engine it comes with, your limiting factor is that you only have ab out 20 tons to work with for weapons. Here are a couple of ideas:

2LLaser + ERLLaser + TAG - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c3cb2904464dff6

I used a similar build to this in the tourney this weekend, but didn't have enough time to put in a lot of games in it... but the games I did play, I never died :D I had a faster XL engine (320 I think) and more DHS, but otherwise the same.

AC20 + 2MLaser - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...41fdac7d0b92b10

This is basically a faster and more heavily armored Hunchback. 4 tons of ammo should be enough. I'd prefer to run this with a slightly smaller engine and pick up another pair of MLasers and some DHS in trade, but this ought to be effective. You can also trade the AC20 and 4t of ammo for a Gauss Rifle and 3 tons if you want to hit from longer range, though you have less total damage potential then.

UAC5 + 4MLaser + SSRM2 - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d1741744fd6346f

This is more of a jack of all trades, with the UAC5 for longer range, more MLasers for mid to close range, and a SSRM2 to help as backup against light mechs. Nothing fantastic, but you might like it.

#23 Just wanna play

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • LocationInside the Womb of a Great Turtle

Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:28 PM

How bout these atlases(same thing kinda, one just has dual lbx10s, other has dual uacs):
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f2e51a035e0ab11
&
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4cb4efbf79830ed

i have already tried many changes, so.... you might say something im already considering

#24 Protection

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,754 posts
  • LocationVancouver

Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:48 PM

View PostJust wanna play, on 25 March 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

How bout these atlases(same thing kinda, one just has dual lbx10s, other has dual uacs):
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f2e51a035e0ab11
&
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4cb4efbf79830ed

i have already tried many changes, so.... you might say something im already considering


Going to have to tinker a bit here, but just a couple things that I dislike here:
  • Max leg armour is usually only for light mechs. Atlas legs are thick and it's quite rare for them to ever get legged - you are safe to lower it down to around 60 points without it being at all a risk.
  • Mixing a medium pulse laser with a medium laser is just weird. After a shot or two, they will be out of synch and then you are going to start spraying damage all over rather than focusing it in one place.
  • Engine Heatsinks == Super Important. Heatsinks inside the engine count as 2.0 heatsinks. Outside of the engine (taking up critical slots) they only count as 1.4 heatsinks. So always fill the engines.
  • It really, really feels like you are not bringing enough ammunition. UAC/5s eat through ammo quickly, and 2 tons is really low, and one ton of SRM ammo isn't much either.
This is how I would suggest changing the LB10X version: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9c39f8496379d69

This is a blunt upgrade for the UAC/5 version, but doesn't address ammunition: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...23c5a9569708975

The thing about 2 LPlas + 2 UAC/5 + 2 MLas + 2 SRM6 is that it's a lot of guns, so getting a good engine in there is tough.

If you are okay with slowing down the UAC/5 build, this will give it the ammunition it needs to last a longer fight: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7ceaf06be88ff8f



And the one other thing I want to add is that I like the MLas + LPLas combination for two reasons - first, it fits. But second, and more importantly, the (fire time + cycle time) for both weapons are identical, so you can group all the lasers together and keep them firing in synch.

All of these designs do strike me as a little over-gunned, and quite hot, as well, I thought I'd add.

#25 Just wanna play

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • LocationInside the Womb of a Great Turtle

Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:34 PM

View PostProtection, on 25 March 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:


Going to have to tinker a bit here, but just a couple things that I dislike here:
  • Max leg armour is usually only for light mechs. Atlas legs are thick and it's quite rare for them to ever get legged - you are safe to lower it down to around 60 points without it being at all a risk.
  • Mixing a medium pulse laser with a medium laser is just weird. After a shot or two, they will be out of synch and then you are going to start spraying damage all over rather than focusing it in one place.
  • Engine Heatsinks == Super Important. Heatsinks inside the engine count as 2.0 heatsinks. Outside of the engine (taking up critical slots) they only count as 1.4 heatsinks. So always fill the engines.
  • It really, really feels like you are not bringing enough ammunition. UAC/5s eat through ammo quickly, and 2 tons is really low, and one ton of SRM ammo isn't much either.
This is how I would suggest changing the LB10X version: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9c39f8496379d69


This is a blunt upgrade for the UAC/5 version, but doesn't address ammunition: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...23c5a9569708975

The thing about 2 LPlas + 2 UAC/5 + 2 MLas + 2 SRM6 is that it's a lot of guns, so getting a good engine in there is tough.

If you are okay with slowing down the UAC/5 build, this will give it the ammunition it needs to last a longer fight: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7ceaf06be88ff8f



And the one other thing I want to add is that I like the MLas + LPLas combination for two reasons - first, it fits. But second, and more importantly, the (fire time + cycle time) for both weapons are identical, so you can group all the lasers together and keep them firing in synch.

All of these designs do strike me as a little over-gunned, and quite hot, as well, I thought I'd add.


first off, i didn't notice that one of the mediums wasn't a pulse, i meant for both 2 be pulses, second you are confused with the double heat sinks thing, its up to the first 10 heat sinks in the engine (hence some engines having 10+X heat sinks, extra ones you add manually are still only 1.4) so heat sinks in that extra space wouldn't do anything except increase the chance of a weapon getting hit by a critical hit, its there to save critical space, so for the builds you made, you actually made mistakes with the heat sinks, anyways... do you recommend the lbx10 or the uacs??? remember the dual lbx10s are essentially a close range ac/20 with much better fire rate, while the uacs are mini guns

pft, over gunned, to me the atlas is just a well armored ctf with another ballistic and energy point, and imo its dumb all mechs have the same amount of critical slots, even when some are a lot bigger then others

my ctf does fine with 100 rounds of srm ammo, and it also has dual srm 6s, but then again you can never have to many explosions :D

and i don't want to remove leg armor because i know some people shoot there because its always has reduced armor, im guessing because of when people think like you are, one guy said in another forum said, when duelling an atlas, he shot its leg and it instantly turned red, so yeah, don't want to be that atlas.....

#26 Ser Barristan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 108 posts
  • LocationWesteros

Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:35 PM

I wouldn't mind a check of my hunchie.

HBK-4G(F)

I'm currently grinding my HBK-4SP but once that is complete I'll need to level up this one and its the least confident build I have.

Edited by Ser Barristan, 25 March 2013 - 03:37 PM.


#27 Just wanna play

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • LocationInside the Womb of a Great Turtle

Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:35 PM

i still can't figure out the uacs, they are just awkward, high rate of fire, but less ammo per ton, and then there's the jamming...

#28 Raptor6789

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Big Brother
  • 27 posts

Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:45 PM

Hey, nice thread. Would you mind imparting some of your thought processes and methodology in making these mechs more efficient? Or would someone be able to point me to a source with this sort of info?

#29 Just wanna play

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • LocationInside the Womb of a Great Turtle

Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:50 PM

well, im sure mwo wiki helps, i use it pretty often

#30 Mazzyplz

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,292 posts

Posted 25 March 2013 - 04:20 PM

hey thanks for the input on the 8T, protection, somehow i had missed your post;
i took some inspiration from your suggestions and made an even better 8T:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6503a3eaf65e3f8

this one is guaranteed to put the hurt on some guys, only 1 ER LL.
3 Largepulse is what gets the kills
you can pepper the medlas when running hot.

promising on testing grounds, i'm taking it out for a spin now, will be back with feedback later.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 25 March 2013 - 04:21 PM.


#31 Protection

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,754 posts
  • LocationVancouver

Posted 25 March 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostSer Barristan, on 25 March 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

I wouldn't mind a check of my hunchie.

HBK-4G(F)

I'm currently grinding my HBK-4SP but once that is complete I'll need to level up this one and its the least confident build I have.



Got you a little more armour and speed: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0350d67f2ffde9b

Alternatively, you can take away 2 points of armour from the original and go for a second M-Gun: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7721fd73b39a6b9 while still improving the speed.

Trick was moving to a 250 engine - gave you the criticals you needed for ferro-fibrous, giving you an extra ton to spend on weapons and ammo.

If you're going to go with the second design - I'd suggest you take a couple more points off the arms, and keep the legs around 30. The arms are only housing one medium laser - they are not so important that they absolutely need to be maxed.

#32 Ser Barristan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 108 posts
  • LocationWesteros

Posted 25 March 2013 - 04:51 PM

Thanks Protection much obliged. I have a HBK-4SP with a similar engine/armor loadout, would switching to the 250 and Ferro be worth while on her as well?

#33 Mazzyplz

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,292 posts

Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:00 PM

alright so the build i posted above is pretty damn good!
only 1 er LL is needed. if sticking close to team (left alone a few times there) 3 large pulse kick serious arse!!
im sticking to this build until they nerf lasers (LOL)

#34 Just wanna play

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • LocationInside the Womb of a Great Turtle

Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:08 PM

if you have it set up with ferro armor, putting in endo will just lighten it up, and welcome to the 26% heat club! nice a toasty huh?

will cost more tho, but its only an improvement

#35 Protection

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,754 posts
  • LocationVancouver

Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:18 PM

View PostRaptor6789, on 25 March 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Hey, nice thread. Would you mind imparting some of your thought processes and methodology in making these mechs more efficient? Or would someone be able to point me to a source with this sort of info?


Your goal is generally to scrimp tonnage wherever you can, and in order of efficiency. XL engine is the best savings, of course, but comes at a very serious drawback - so it is a player choice, not a flat out optimization. So I wont really cover that. Otherwise, you want:
  • Double heatsinks are a must on every build. It's 10 free tons, and if you keep the engine over 250. Even for zero heat builds, like the Gaussapult, it doesn't hurt to have doubles - and if you have any heat generation you pretty much require them. This should be the first upgrade on any new mech you get. Single heatsinks are a waste of tonnage, and unless you need 35+ single heatsinks, then they are a waste of critical space as well (ironic to some).
  • Endo Steel if possible. Endo Steel gives you back 5% of your weight to spend elsewhere, albeit at a heavy cost of critical shots. Every single light, medium, and most heavy loadouts should have zero difficulty fitting in Endo Steel. It is a little trickier when it comes to Assault Mechs -- sometimes you can (most competitive players usually want to), but builds requiring lots of heatsinks just cannot spare the extra space.
  • Ferro Fibrous is a pretty poor savings, usually only around a ton or so of extra weight to work with -- but it is a savings so if you can fit it in, then so much the better. Lights can usually do this fine, and so can most mediums, but it becomes very very hard on Heavies and impossible on Assault mechs.
  • Use as many of the critical slots as you can. There's no reward for being a minimalist. Most "optimized" designs (some exceptions) try to leave themselves with anywhere from zero to two critical slots left unused.
  • Don't put armour where it is not needed (again, a few exceptions - like the Centurion shield arm can sometimes apply). Light mechs need maximum leg armour, but almost no one else does - its a safe place to strip a ton or so without it being a risk. Same with arms. Unless you have your most important weapons in your arms, you can get away with taking a little bit off. Torso armour is usually maxed for all mechs, but lights can get away with taking points off of the head.
Now all five of the above synergize with this fourth point - which is the big one:
  • Engine size. There are optimal engine sizes, and there are sub optimal engine sizes. There isn't exactly a pattern, and I can't really go engine to engine, but it's something you just need to watch for. The 250 engine is generally the benchmark -- if you have anything smaller then you have to waste internal slots on heatsinks that would otherwise be in the engine. This makes is less likely that you can cram in endo steel or ferro fibrous, meaning you have fewer tons to work with - but if you spend a little more on the engine, then you can make all that cost back in the bonus from Endo Steel or Ferro Fibrous. Generally any Engine multiple of 25 is a good engine. Every 25 points of engine mean you can insert one extra heatsink inside the engine, meaning you can add a heatsink without spending 3 criticals of internal structure, meaning more chance of Endo Steel/Ferro Fibrous, meaning more tonnage savings and thus more optimization.
  • Atlas builds usually aim to run a 325 or 350 engine, Stalkers like 275 and 300, Awesomes almost all go for 300 (or 350/375). Fifty ton mediums usually want a 250 or 275 if it is allowed. Light mechs usually use the largest or second largest engine they can get, and heavies can vary pretty dramatically, so I wont bother.
  • After all your optimizations are added, your loadout is finished, and all your critical slots are used up or to the point where you are totally happy with all the stuff you have crammed in there -- then, at that point, if you have tonnage left over, then you look to increase the engine size a little bit more. If you can get a full 25 points larger, you might need to redesign a bit, but otherwise, this is where you can move a 250 up to a 260, or a 300 up to a 310 or 315. It's hard to know which ones are good deals and which ones are bad, but take a look at the tonnage numbers (and don't worry about the price spikes every 25 points). Also keep an eye out for some weird ones -- the 200XL is a terrible deal and you are better off with a 195XL. The 260XL and 265XL are the same tonnage, so why not take more speed for free. Anything over 325 really starts to get into diminishing returns territory, and anything over 350 means you are paying an awful lot for very little -- unless you are running, say an Awesome 9M, where you have nothing better to do than up the engine size, you probably dont want to go past the 350 mark, or even the 325.
After you go through all that, you should be looking at a fairly optimized mech. There's more to it, of course, I didn't really cover heat efficiency (on smurfy, a cooling efficiency in the 20's is pretty hot, 30's is decent, 40's is pretty good, and 50's is quite cool) but these are the things you are aiming to achieve when assembling an optimized mech. Ammunition is pretty consistent -- LRMs is usually 2 tons for every size 10 or larger launcher, SRMs is one ton per missile rack (maybe 4 tons for 3 SRM6s), Ballistics are 3 tons per gun (4 for AC/20, 2 for AC/5 and /2, 1 for MGun). Of course it varies by player preference - some LRM boats really want to have all the ammo they ever need. Some brawlers can get by with a little less ammo to spend more on heatsinks or engine size - so it's your call.

The other, last point, is generally try to keep yourself to 3 weapon groups or fewer. Having 4 or 5 weapon groups gets really hard to manage and control, and even if you are great at it, having so many different weapons means that you are often shooting and hitting enemies in different locations with each shot, making the damage really imprecise. 30 points of damage to one exact location is often better than 40 points of damage split across four different sections. So it helps to keep your weapon groups simple, organized and effective.

#36 Protection

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,754 posts
  • LocationVancouver

Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:26 PM

View PostSer Barristan, on 25 March 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Thanks Protection much obliged. I have a HBK-4SP with a similar engine/armor loadout, would switching to the 250 and Ferro be worth while on her as well?


It depends on what exactly the build is loaded with.

This build is generally considered the "standard" 4SP build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...39588175fc0d392
(occasionally with minus one MLas and plus one Double Heatsink)

This design has held up well (it's generally a solid recommendation for any player's first mech - it's cheap, it's durable, it's focused, and it functions well even half dead), and was still being used often in competitive play.

It is hot, and needs the criticals for heatsinks, so Ferro Fibrous never gets installed. The Hunchback engine restriction limits what you can do, because you can't push for a 275 and an extra heatsink like you can in a Centurion.

#37 Just wanna play

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • LocationInside the Womb of a Great Turtle

Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:26 PM

what is your opinion of the uac? and what do you think about dual lbxs???

#38 Just wanna play

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • LocationInside the Womb of a Great Turtle

Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:36 PM

wanna see what you can do with my cataphract????
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...789a801395827aa

#39 Protection

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,754 posts
  • LocationVancouver

Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:45 PM

View PostJust wanna play, on 25 March 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

what is your opinion of the uac? and what do you think about dual lbxs???


UAC/5 is a good weapon on paper, but in game only works in large quantities.

One UAC/5 is generally bad. It's low damage, high tonnage, and unreliable.

Two UAC/5s is decent. It's good DPS, but still has some problems from jamming.

Three UAC/5s is quite good. You fire a Gauss Rifle worth of damage in each shot, and can fire three times as fast.

(The 3xUAC/5 Ilya is considered a very solid build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...57fb6db9187ab46)

Four UAC/5s would be glorious - if only there was a mech capable of running them.
(The Jager is about ten tons too light to do so without totally ruining speed and armour to the point where it has no serious chance.)

The big drawbacks are the fact that they chew through ammunition. The Ultraphract (Ilya) requires 10 tons of ammo, and still has problems in long games. Jamming can be irritating, and the other issue is that you need to be constantly facing your target to constantly fire - so you have less opportunity to "shoulder" damage (by turning your less important arms to take a hit aimed at your torso).

LB-10Xs really only work at very close range, and could use a bit of a buff. They aren't terrible, but the critical bonus is a joke, and beyond 100m they are really ineffective since focused damage is so much better than spread damage.

#40 Just wanna play

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • LocationInside the Womb of a Great Turtle

Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:50 PM

so how is my ctf??? if i put large lasers, or large pulse laser on it like it used to have, i wouldnt be that far off the 3 uacs dps wise, maybe even better, although slower

and you dont think dual lbx10s would be great for a brawler???





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users