106 replies to this topic

[Mazzyplz]

Royalewithcheese, on 26 March 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

It actually might be, if 3xLPL is all you can afford to fire in close-range on an 80-ton robot.

IMO your main issue is that SRM stacking is now a lot less viable than it was pre-hotfix, which makes some robots comparatively less powerful, the 8R being one of them, and forces you to lean more heavily on a weapon type (lasers) that it sounds like you're a lot less comfortable with. If it were me with this problem with a particular set-up, I'd get more comfortable with accurately firing my lasers, and possibly shift the build more in that direction in general.

no it's not all i can afford to fire, the 8T has 5 laser hardpoints, 1 of them is only 1 slot big, can only fit medlas (head)
so 3LPL is all i can afford TO PUT IN THE DARN THING because i save 1 of those for a ER LARGE LASER, that helps me shoot in large maps.

in fact you're right on the second part. srm is crap now, and that's a big part of the problem. i recognize i'm not great at shooting lasers, but i'm not interested in them, the 8T laser boat is a recent build i made because PPC is not cutting it.

and that's another thing. why would you even boat PPC anymore, 2 or 3 do very little damage for the ammount of heat they put out. if it weren't for the fact that it temporarily negates ECM, most everyone would be using ballistic.

it still doesn't prevent my side torsos from going kaboom thanks to the hole i pointed out earlier, and it still doesn't give me the option to put XL engine back in. since 80kph boomjag can track me down fast and focus me down.
my sidetorso has 48 armor front 20 back, so 2 shots... JUST 2! will cripple me or more often than not kill me, since putting XLs in the thing is no longer viable, and i repeat. it was viable in march 18th
i was holding my own against all the mechs march 18th with XL engine. now the jagermech shoots twice and i'm down HARD a bag of trash rolling down a landfill.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 26 March 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Mazzyplz, on 26 March 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

no it's not all i can afford to fire, the 8T has 5 laser hardpoints, 1 of them is only 1 slot big, can only fit medlas (head)
so 3LPL is all i can afford TO PUT IN THE DARN THING because i save 1 of those for a ER LARGE LASER, that helps me shoot in large maps.

in fact you're right on the second part. srm is crap now, and that's a big part of the problem. i recognize i'm not great at shooting lasers, but i'm not interested in them, the 8T laser boat is a recent build i made because PPC is not cutting it.

Well, I'm not sure the ERLL is the best call for you laser-wise. How much do you think one ERLL is contributing to a long-range fight, anyway? But even so, is there a reason you're not alpha-ing with all four lasers? ERLL isn't optimal, but it still contributes up close.

(And TBH if I was personally not a fan of lasers, not sure I'd be running an Awesome right now.)

[Troggy]

I'll stop with the the tongue and cheek now, b/c I am serious about this. Basically, you have roughly equivalent speed (you are a bit slower, but not a ton)

However, the real problem is, with this mech, as you have pointed out, is it's speed. Reversing in your mech multiplies this advantage 4 fold. It makes you twice as easy to hit where he wants, but it also makes him twice as hard when you want to shoot him, b/c he can adjust direction at twice the rate.

With regard to turning your back, this is a mostly awful idea, and rarely necessary. The real goal here is to spread damage. By any math you can have him out gunned in sheer damage (and you certainly have him out ranged). But, he does all his damage pinpoint (and presumably can time his shots). So you need to be aggressive, run at him at a diagonal. Configure the torso-lock, arm aiming function so you can shoot him with arms only (it's available, you just need to bind it to a mouse or keyboard key). Hit him hard on one side, when you have taken a beating on one side, switch sides on him and come straight at him. He will back up to try to track, giving you more target, but removing his ability to hit you (if he wants to protect the bad side), b/c you have never crossed his midline, and are coming through one of his arms, he is unable to protect his injured side effectively. I have little trouble making this work on this Jager with a 4LL dragon. I presume the 5LL awesome would be even more suited to it.


troggy - actual advice about stop using reverse, appreciated. - the alternatives are to show my back to it (horrible idea) or keep shooting it (i'm outgunned in this instance)
torso twisting is a good way to get my weaker sidetorsos blown, losing weapons (and thus the fight) or having my XL engine (if i'm carrying one) explode instantly.
having it hit my arms would be a good bet, if it was wide enough, it's wide enough to eat some missiles but any ballistic can just ignore that portion and aim for my sidetorso or even ct at an angle.
it would be HARD to hit an arm with ballistics instead of what you're aiming for, even if i ONLY show you my profile

so while it does work against splatcats and atlas (when they were useful - more so now)
against ballistic this is a terrible tactic.

sadly no, srm + artemis doesn't kill it. it takes like 5 salvos from 4xSRM6 + artemis. i'm dead by then.
and i can't use the PPC in conjunction because it shuts me down faster than you can say "fromage"

i am already boating as many SRM and as many PPC as i can in all my builds. srm are a joke and ppc (read above)
besides the ER version, i use it but it's incredibly hot. something the jager doesn't have to deal with (heat)


again - i'm just gonna keep posting the same thing since your responses don't address the issue

awesome was quite balanced regarding the other chassis before the 19th.
come the 19th - jager is powerful but it's head is big and the srm can wreck it.

[Troggy]

Also, I would like to further the discussion by offering up this post:

http://mwomercs.com/...s-not-a-tactic/

It's not about your mech per say, but it is relevant. Much of the discussion here, especially on your end OP, is how to avoid/not get killed by/run away from 2xAC20 Jagernaughts (see what I did there). I would point out that the Jager mech is the softest of the Heavies - it has serious durability issues. Exploit them. Ruthlessly. 2 Alphas with any AWS laser boat will cleave an arm from 450 meters. Crashing into the side of the mech and opening up with SRMs will still wreck an arm in basically 1 hit. Fire support can be a dangerous trap to fall in to, it encourages a person to not optimize their build, b/c they "cannot fight cheese builds anyway". Work with a second person, hit decisively. If you cannot cripple a mech with your AWa in 8 seconds, your pretty much humped, because the Jagernaught can, my DDC can, the Stalker can, the splat cat can, the Hunchie SP can, and so on.

The AWS is a tough chassis to play. It's only advantage is speed. Moving backward, moving slowly or standing still, it is just an inferior Stalker.

--
Troggy

[Ralgas]

The sad part in all of this disscussion is that the ac/20 jagger isn't even it's final form. If they ever fix/ buff the jamming issues of uac5's the forums will be awash with jagger turret tears.


It still has serious tinfoil armor and mobility issues to fit the loadout but could potentially drop any mech in the game in under 8 seconds with a 540m range

[Royalewithcheese]

Ralgas, on 26 March 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

The sad part in all of this disscussion is that the ac/20 jagger isn't even it's final form. If they ever fix/ buff the jamming issues of uac5's the forums will be awash with jagger turret tears.


It still has serious tinfoil armor and mobility issues to fit the loadout but could potentially drop any mech in the game in under 8 seconds with a 540m range

IMO the basic issue is that fast heavies are a thing and will likely continue to be a thing

Like seriously if the Orion has its guns in the places I think it will and they release some of the variants I think they will, "75 ton DDC with the arms sawed off and no ECM going scary fast" is the first build I'm gonna try with it.

[DegeneratePervert]

And my Awesome 9M With 3x PPCs can core the side torso of a Jager in two volleys. Problem?

[D3athScyth3]

Bring said dual AC20 to stand toe to toe with my Phract.....we will see who walks away

They arnt very hard to take down, i have droped so many dual AC20 jagers in my Cataphract its not funny.

Dont stress learn to target there weak spots (ie usually there back or legs)

[ShinVector]

Mazzyplz, on 25 March 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

2xAC20 jagermech cores the awesome assault mech in 3 shots.

it's a completely broken game mechanic, players can't avoid it since the awesome is slow as molasses

Hmmmmm.... I guess you would shat your pants when you realise dual ac20 can single headshot any mech in the game.
But that also goes for quad large lasers, quad ppc, quad large pulse, etc.....

No one forced you to run an Awesome. Why complain the game is 'broken' because of it ?
Though I heard feedback from my Awesome pilot buddies that it kinda sucks due to its large CT.

I believe there are tactics you can pull by utilising torso twisting to spread damage.
Other then that is to ride a fast Awesome.


Additionally: Multiple dual AC20 mechs usually means a quick death.
I have seen a team in an 8 man bring in 8 dual ac20 cats before and they just maul through everything in its path.

Edited by ShinVector, 26 March 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[Ralgas]

Royalewithcheese, on 26 March 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

IMO the basic issue is that fast heavies are a thing and will likely continue to be a thing
.

Not so much a thing as a role, which is fire support (dragons excepted, theu are closer to mecanised assualt or meds) high dmg outpu, but not quite fast or sturdy enough to close combat skirmish with the big boys unless they already have an advantage

[Mazzyplz]

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No one forced you to run an Awesome. Why complain the game is 'broken' because of it ?
Though I heard feedback from my Awesome pilot buddies that it kinda sucks due to its large CT.

I believe there are tactics you can pull by utilising torso twisting to spread damage.
Other then that is to ride a fast Awesome.

yeah nobody is forcing me to play an awesome, they're just bad now.

so why are they in the game, why did they receive a buff 2 months ago?
because the developers don't want it in? because they think it shouldn't be played?

nice suggestion anyhow but look at the picture on the previous page, giving it my side is just as bad as anything.

i'll let you know, the reason i pilot an awesome is because it's a marik mech. simple as that.
when the orion comes out i'll get it ASAP because it's a marik mech, and i play those, call me a roleplayer or whatever.
however i hope that when it comes out it doesn't give me a guaranteed kill with any other mechs.
i don't see any reason any mech should be obsolete. bad maybe; the awesome was bad before. everyone would be hard pressed to say it was a good mech. right now it has fallen beyond that threshold and has become a mech that a heavy can do-in in 2 shots.
2 shots to the sidetorso, with a torso as huge as they are here, is just unreasonable.
in particular when the mech who is doing the killing is much lighter. assaults tend to have more firepower. but in less than 5 seconds you can get 2 shots in, and finish off the awesome, or just neutralize it for good.
(ac40 has 4 second cooldown, so basically less than 5 seconds)

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Configure the torso-lock, arm aiming function so you can shoot him with arms only (it's available, you just need to bind it to a mouse or keyboard key)

i love how you think i started playing yesterday. i have that function off all the time.
are you just telling me to L2P by being this patronizing? i said before i'm used to wrecking all other chassis.



i can't get anywhere near a jagermech, when did my assault mech become a wussy?
i don't have problems with the weapon, it's fine in the catapult.
this guy is just too fast and more difficult to headshot than the cat. it's way slimmer at range, and the chest doesn't stick out like an aeroplane.

thanks for the suggestions, maybe you can core him if he's static, but in a scenario where both mechs are torso twisting or even moving jager always comes out on top.

ps.
you know i have been playing mechwarrior since 1997, and i don't ever recall in those previous games killing any mech with 2-3 shots. maybe a light mech, certainly not an assault

Edited by Mazzyplz, 26 March 2013 - 06:07 PM.

[ShinVector]

Ahhh... Marik mech. A good reason as any.
Luckly for me... Liao mechs tends to be the 'good' ones.

Honestly for me the type of Awesome that I found very hard to fight with is the fast Awesome.
They are the sneaky type and their main aim to get behind slow Assault mechs and smash them from behind and stay there till their dead.
But I guess this tactics also got nerfed thanks to the Missile damage nerfing.
Direct fire weapons, especially lasers is the new flavour of the month now.
Tactics for lasers are different though...You need to stay at range while taking as little damage as possible.

Edited by ShinVector, 26 March 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

ShinVector, on 26 March 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Ahhh... Marik mech. A good reason as any.
Luckly for me... Liao mechs tends to be the 'good' ones.

Honestly for me the type of Awesome that I found very hard to fight with is the fast Awesome.
They are the sneaky type and their main aim to get behind slow Assault mechs and smash them from behind and stay there till their dead.
But I guess this tactics also got nerfed thanks to the Missile damage nerfing.
Direct fire weapons, especially lasers is the new flavour of the month now.
Tactics for lasers are different though...You need to stay at range while taking as little damage as possible.

i'd say ballistic is the FOTM now.
yeah the fast awesome is great but costs money... LOL

[HarmAssassin]

For the past three days I've been playing a dual AC20 Jagermech, and I can say that I completely disagree with the Original Poster. Granted I did have one game with 5 kills (but every one was already damaged before I got to it), more often than not I'm lucky to get 1 kill with them.

Quite often, I'm dead before I can get into optimum range (by the 6 ERPPC Stalkers, the 5 Large Laser Cataphracts, etc.). Dual AC20's or dual Gauss Rifle builds may be annoying, but they are certainly not overpowered.

If you are consistently getting cored by them, you need to twist until after they fire, then aim and fire your own weapons, then twist away before they fire again. You also need to keep your distance.

Dual AC20 or dual Gauss Rifle builds are almost entirely useless against lights.

As for me, I've changed my Jagermech loadout dozens of times looking for the best build. I finally came back to 2 AC20's and 2 med lasers, that seems to work best for me... but that means only carrying 42 shots of ammo (21 if firing both together)... Very easy to run out of ammo, and as a 65 ton mech, even with full armor it is very easy to lose exterior armor and then have an ammo explosion.

[ShinVector]

HarmAssassin, on 26 March 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Dual AC20 or dual Gauss Rifle builds are almost entirely useless against lights.

No offense intended but only SUCK with them !!
They absolutely light KILLERS !!

Dual guass 30 damage is much less threathening than the dual AC20's 40 damage though.

I am a sucky shot probably my 250ms++ latency does not help.

Just to explain:

• 40 Instant damage to a lights leg. BOOM!! He is legged and soon to be dead.
  
• 40 Damage to a light XL engine side torso. BOOM!! He is dead.

I am not that great at it yet but I welcome having lights run past so, I can practice AC20 shots.
The strange part is. I actually specialise in light mechs.
BUUUT you have to play all mechs and all weapons to understand their PROs, CONs, how to use them and how to fight against them.

[PaintedWolf]

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Oh, I know!

We can set up the matchmaker so that it only launches with two teams of similar builds, and can determine if anyone is using any voip. That way, you can only play near mirror matches, all the time.

And, rather than just picking mechs AFTER we see the map, why not just have one map, that is perfectly symmetrical. And balanced for all weapons (wouldn't want the only map to be unbalanced, haha.) SO, it can be just flat, with perfect lighting. Because vision modes are OP.

Also, because [INSERT WEAPON] is op, we should trim the weapon selection down a little. Maybe to say... one.

Don't want to leave everything else balanced out, but not the different chassis, so lets put everyone in the same mech, too.

So, now everyone drops on MAP, in MECH, armed with GUN. See? Fair.

That'll be fun, right?

QFT.

[Melcyna]

Mazzyplz, on 26 March 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

i can't get anywhere near a jagermech, when did my assault mech become a wussy?
i don't have problems with the weapon, it's fine in the catapult.
this guy is just too fast and more difficult to headshot than the cat. it's way slimmer at range, and the chest doesn't stick out like an aeroplane.

thanks for the suggestions, maybe you can core him if he's static, but in a scenario where both mechs are torso twisting or even moving jager always comes out on top.

ps.
you know i have been playing mechwarrior since 1997, and i don't ever recall in those previous games killing any mech with 2-3 shots. maybe a light mech, certainly not an assault

Headshot?
no offense but... you are supposed to be aiming at his arm or side torso, why are you aiming at his head unless you are certain you can score a hit from which your own statement obviously indicates you are not? I don't get it...

and you never killed mechs with 2-3 alpha before? you never played MW3 in multiplayer do you? well technically MW2 same thing but u don't explode instantly when you lose a leg at least, not that it did any good in multiplayer since ur still as good as dead except with JJ where u can be a pain in the arse hopping around with one leg at least, i can only assume that you seriously missed out on Mechwarrior games multiplayer since 1995.

[Capp]

As far as I've read, it seems to come down to this: The Original Poster found a single mech/loudout that he can't burn down with his mech/loudout and refuses to change or adapt so that new mech must be nerfed.

Basically:

Dear Devs,
Nerf paper, scissors are fine.
Rock

I've tried Jager, it's not that great, even with dual AC/20s. I don't plan on buying the other two. Maybe I'll try hunting Awesomes with it, maybe that's what they're best at.

[Melcyna]

Sure seems that way

[Mazzyplz]

Melcyna, on 26 March 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

Headshot?
no offense but... you are supposed to be aiming at his arm or side torso, why are you aiming at his head unless you are certain you can score a hit from which your own statement obviously indicates you are not? I don't get it...

and you never killed mechs with 2-3 alpha before? you never played MW3 in multiplayer do you? well technically MW2 same thing but u don't explode instantly when you lose a leg at least, not that it did any good in multiplayer since ur still as good as dead except with JJ where u can be a pain in the arse hopping around with one leg at least, i can only assume that you seriously missed out on Mechwarrior games multiplayer since 1995.

i became accustomed when it rolled out of production with a faulty head, so i keep aiming at the head with my styrofoam SRMS

at any rate arms are tiny on it, so i doubt i'll get good shots so i go for the chest area.
the k2 catapult has huge arms which are very easy to blast off. so that's another imbalance on that chassis for you. it isn't even fair to catapult pilots

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I've tried Jager, it's not that great, even with dual AC/20s. I don't plan on buying the other two. Maybe I'll try hunting Awesomes with it, maybe that's what they're best at.

you should try because you can kill em in a couple of shots.

Quote

Dear Devs,
Nerf paper, scissors are fine.
Rock

rock paper scissors balancing is crap.

let's play jankempo (rock paper scissors) online game where you must choose to be a rock all the time, or paper all the time, then jump into online matches to see how we did.
stupidest idea ever - but it's essentially what you're advocating

Quote

i can only assume that you seriously missed out on Mechwarrior games multiplayer since 1995.

i only played MW2 in multiplayer, and MW4 on LAN. but my friends weren't exploting anything on our lan parties
mw3 i played single player only at a friend's house

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QFT.

that's the truth indeed! sometime soon we will have only 1 gun in the battlefield, and only 1 mech.
ac20 and jager.
seems to be what you want.


so now tell me guys how ac40 can't 2-shot an assault side torso? i was under the impression 80 damage was a bigger number than 48 armor + internals on a front sidetorso

lemme see how it can't and i'll promptly delete the thread.

keeping away from brawlers is completely unrealistic, if it was atlas would never get to brawling range.
but it always could, even before ECM. now it's obviously worse.
any brawler can close the distance even in the biggest maps, if not by tanking shot or avoiding them with speed (like the jager) then hiding with ecm or straight up using the terrain for a two-pronged attack.
and don't even act like bases don't exist or aren't a factor. control of the bases is crucial in this game. so naturally i'll have to get close voluntarily at some point

or do you want me to keep a constant distance backpedaling at 40kph while the jagger does 80 forward?
maybe you want me to turn around and run, the embodiment of what it is to pilot an assault mech.
still wouldn't save me, top speed with trick is 66kph. my back armor is 24

Edited by Mazzyplz, 26 March 2013 - 07:45 PM.