152 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Damn dude.

Look, you and I have disagreed over a LOT in this game. And it ain't always been pretty. And in truth, that will probably remain that way. But this is one of the best reasoned posts, with no hyperbole, no rants or halfazz opinions. Just a well researched, well worded matter of fact post.
And I agree with it pretty much 100%. (ok, I might disagree with you about the viability of some of the Trial Mechs, but I digress). You pretty well sum it up with none of the chicken little rhetoric that some people on here post, but also aren't brown nosing the Devs on the fact that the game, and TBH, the community, has a hell of a lot more we COULD do to make this game more new player friendly.

Salute, dude. This post should he pinned as a constant reminder to koolaid sipping Dev and doom saying forum warrior alike, as to what could and should he done, as well as a ln HONEST appraisal of where our new user experience stands in contrast to the games.

[Nordhammer]

War Thunder also has a nice tutorial...but....one hell of a grind/money sink past a certain level

[QuantumButler]

Valk is perhaps one of the most well spoken and, for lack of a better term, 'sane' of us. Even if he makes a well written post you don't happen to agree with it is probably best to consider what it says.

[MacKerris]

QuantumButler, on 27 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Valk is perhaps one of the most well spoken and, for lack of a better term, 'sane' of us. Even if he makes a well written post you don't happen to agree with it is probably best to consider what it says.

While I may agree with you.....Backing your teammate is rather.......obvious

btw, If he is sane then that makes the rest of us....oh crap

[QuantumButler]

MacKerris, on 27 March 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

While I may agree with you.....Backing your teammate is rather.......obvious

btw, If he is sane then that makes the rest of us....oh crap

Well of course it's obvious, but such is life in the Inner Sphere.

[MacKerris]

lol, point taken

[valkyrie]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

Damn dude.

Look, you and I have disagreed over a LOT in this game. And it ain't always been pretty. And in truth, that will probably remain that way. But this is one of the best reasoned posts, with no hyperbole, no rants or halfazz opinions. Just a well researched, well worded matter of fact post.
And I agree with it pretty much 100%. (ok, I might disagree with you about the viability of some of the Trial Mechs, but I digress). You pretty well sum it up with none of the chicken little rhetoric that some people on here post, but also aren't brown nosing the Devs on the fact that the game, and TBH, the community, has a hell of a lot more we COULD do to make this game more new player friendly.

Salute, dude. This post should he pinned as a constant reminder to koolaid sipping Dev and doom saying forum warrior alike, as to what could and should he done, as well as a ln HONEST appraisal of where our new user experience stands in contrast to the games.

Thanks Bishop. I don't ever make statements about game balance unless I legitimately think it'll make the game better in the long run. When offering criticism and suggestions like this, I do my best to be as objective and impartial as possible, and try to stay open to things I may not have considered. For what it's worth, if I butt heads with you, it's nothing personal.

QuantumButler, on 27 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Valk is perhaps one of the most well spoken and, for lack of a better term, 'sane' of us.

Only when I'm not screaming bloody murder at my monitor over awful pubs. <3

[Postumus]

So riffing off of what the OP was saying about training for new players, I know that the devs have poo poo'd PVE and single player, but it would be extremely worthwhile to throw in say 3 or 4 tutorial or PVE missions, with a script and narration to cover all of the various mechanics. If you need inspiration, go back and play the MW4 mercs tutorial, that gets you piloting a mech in no time. Drop em in a hunchie, make them circle a target while twisting to keep it centered, target several enemy mechs in succession, zoom to snipe with an AC or PPC, lock missiles, use jumpjets, etc. Then make a few advanced scenarios, like making them core out an atlas from the back in a light mech (can give it really dumb AI, but still), or escort a lance under an ECM bubble in a raven, or designate an ECM'd target for missile support. Once artillery and such get introduced they could have tutorials for those.

Reading about these things or watching a video is one thing, but to really grasp the concepts it's important to actually do it all yourself. Hell, even Hawken has a freaking in-game tutorial, they have had since their first closed beta. Quit being lazy.

[Warma]

jeffsw6, on 27 March 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

I went like 20 matches without killing my first enemy mech. It was very frustrating. Dropping on different maps all the time, especially River City Night, sucks for a newbie, too!

A lot of people say this, but it just sounds strange. I started with trials like everybody else and went a total of 1 match without killing an enemy. The controls are the same as in the older games and the mechanics match. On top of that, it's not any different than driving a tank in some battlefield game, so why would a person be that disadvantaged?

Of course, it might be that you are a person who has not played all of the old games or military action games in general. If you are one, could you describe what mechs feel like in general and whether the coolness of the setting has any relevance to you? Is the customization aspect as important for you as it is for us?

[QuantumButler]

Warma, on 27 March 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

A lot of people say this, but it just sounds strange. I started with trials like everybody else and went a total of 1 match without killing an enemy. The controls are the same as in the older games and the mechanics match. On top of that, it's not any different than driving a tank in some battlefield game, so why would a person be that disadvantaged?

Of course, it might be that you are a person who has not played all of the old games or military action games in general. If you are one, could you describe what mechs feel like in general and whether the coolness of the setting has any relevance to you? Is the customization aspect as important for you as it is for us?

Not everyone has the skills to compensate for their overheating junk heap of a trail mech, it sounds like you're a above average to good player: keyword, above average, the average player has a miserable time in the trail mechs.

[Malora Sidewinder]

I feel like trial mechs could be done so much better in various different ways...

but that's the thing. each of those different options, even if executed poorly, is *still* better than the trial mech system currently.

bigger, more expensive mechs oftentimes don't do nearly as much damage as a less-optimized mech with a skilled pilot at the controls.

example, i just saw a spider get second place in damage on the enemy team- he had 400 damage done with TWO MEDIUM LASERS.
of the 2 atlas DDCs he had, they each had 300 ish damage.

since bigger, more expensive mechs don't auto-win, why not give players a mech of their choice when they start? if they can choose any mech they want, i don't see why they couldn't have a cbill or xp penalty. this motivates them to play enough to get to their own mech and drop the original.

or, instead of free choice reign, why not offer any variant of a single mech from each class? for this option, i doubt c-bill/xp penalties would be warranted.

a new player wants to try a light mech? cool, he can have any stock variant of the jenner he wishes.

a new player decides that medium mechs, with their combination of firepower and speed at the expense of armor seems their style. awesome, why not let them take their pic of a hunchback?

a new player wants versatility and some survivability?
give them their pick of the catapults. (i'd say dragon, but dragons are actually very difficult to pilot correctly)

a new player wants to jump right in and pilot an assault mech? give them an awesome, any which one they want, and let them play in an assault mech from the get go.


if they aren't using trial mechs, they won't be able to afford upgrades for their chosen mechs for (usually) a few days worth of play, leaving them with a mech that, for all intents and purposes *IS* a trial mech... but it just has an element of permanency.

[maXe72]

+1

The cadet bonus is another story to mention.

Rookies simply do not know that there IS a cadet bonus and how long this would last.
So they (as i did..) waste the CB for trying weapons and mechs that are nearly ineffective and uncompetetive.
As there was no Training Grounds, they had to compete online with highly trained warriors while eating up
your 25 "Bonus" Matches.

The Training Ground is a step into the right direction, but there has to be some cadet school with some
kind of Trainer which guides the rookie trough the basics of MWO :
- Torso-Arm crosshairs + Movement
- Weapon Grouping
- Heat managemant
- Radar capabilities
- Target designation
- weapon handling (LRM, Target leading)
- Targeting components

And the one important factor that differs MWO from other FPS/Sims
- they have to learn the amazing advantage of team acting in formations and concentrated fire.

At the moment they have to learn it the hard way, which will mostly result in simply dropping
off the game.

[One Medic Army]

Malora Sidewinder, on 28 March 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

since bigger, more expensive mechs don't auto-win, why not give players a mech of their choice when they start? if they can choose any mech they want, i don't see why they couldn't have a cbill or xp penalty. this motivates them to play enough to get to their own mech and drop the original.

or, instead of free choice reign, why not offer any variant of a single mech from each class? for this option, i doubt c-bill/xp penalties would be warranted.

a new player wants to try a light mech? cool, he can have any stock variant of the jenner he wishes.

a new player decides that medium mechs, with their combination of firepower and speed at the expense of armor seems their style. awesome, why not let them take their pic of a hunchback?

a new player wants versatility and some survivability?
give them their pick of the catapults. (i'd say dragon, but dragons are actually very difficult to pilot correctly)

a new player wants to jump right in and pilot an assault mech? give them an awesome, any which one they want, and let them play in an assault mech from the get go.

if they aren't using trial mechs, they won't be able to afford upgrades for their chosen mechs for (usually) a few days worth of play, leaving them with a mech that, for all intents and purposes *IS* a trial mech... but it just has an element of permanency.

This is something that was discussed quite a bit (on the forums and on TS) back in the closed beta. I remember the general consensus being that most new players if given the option to take any mech, would immediately take the atlas (like I did). And no offense to people who like the awesome, but it's a terrible mech to give a beginner. Most are spec'd for long-range support, a role the stalker is much better suited for.

The problem is that Assaults in MWO are actually fairly difficult to play well, so most people had the opinion that either the free mech should be after some "get used to the game" period (like what we have now with cadet bonus), or restrict the new players to non-assault mechs only.

I'd be completely behind a trials-only queue, or a cadet-only queue, the real question is if there's enough of a server population to support it. It also might be worth lowering the "base Elo rating" that new players get when they start, or in other words starting them in a lower bracket.

I think between the contest where we the players designed and selected a trial mech, and the cadet bonus they're on the right track on that end.

Game most definitely needs a real tutorial though.

[Slaytronic]

valkyrie, on 26 March 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

I've been playing World of Tanks a little bit as of late. Why? Because I'm a huge weeaboo who loved Girls und Panzer and had this nearly unscratchable itch to play around in a PzKpfw IV. World of Tanks looked to scratch that itch, and I figured "well, why not, it's halfway up the tech tree, can't be too hard to unlock."

Oh man, was I wrong. But, if nothing else, I learned some lessons about what I like and don't like as a new player that hopefully PGI can apply to MWO.

Things start out simple enough. You get a handful of Tier I light tanks that start out their country's respective tech trees. Germany gets the Leichttractor light tank, which leads then branches out into various light tanks, medium tanks, tank destroyers, and self-propelled guns. To move down the tree, you have to first get enough XP to research the parts to progress, then buy them. The first win of every day in each chassis gets you double experience, and I was lucky enough to have been given some starting currency at SXSW to kick things along. OK, let's roll out in the Leichttra-

Oh? What's this? An actual TUTORIAL? And I get rewards for doing it? Ok, why not?
*five minutes later*
Ok, simple enough. NOW let's roll out in the Leichttractor!

I got my *** handed to me. Again. And again. And again. I'm not bad at these sorts of games and I took to the concepts presented pretty quickly (being a BF3 tank ace has given me a real knack for armored combat). The difficulty came more from the fact that I was facing people with heavily upgraded tier I and tier II tanks. I'd shoot and reload, they'd shoot me three times in the span it took for me to get another shell in the chamber. They'd drive circles around me with upgraded engines and turrets, and hit more often than me because their crews were better trained. Nonetheless, I suffered through the first twenty or so games, scoring a few kills and wins as I learned the maps better and slowly upgraded my lowly tank. A few hours later and I had progressed down the tree to the PzKpfw 38(t) - only two steps to go until I could rock the PzKpfw IV! That's when the REAL game hit me like a sack of bricks.

Game after game, my PzKpfw 38(t) would be dropped against Churchills, StuG IIIs, PzKpfw IVs, M3 Lees, M4 Shermans, etc.,all of which were clearly labeled as one or two tiers above my tank's tech level. I'd frequently move along the borders of the map, trying to avoid contact simply because any shots I -did- hit with would frequently bounce off. The enemy, on the other hand, could fire one shot at my front armor and turn my light tank into a piñata. Game after game I'd lose to swift, blinding death from nowhere, then see in spectator mode that many of these much heavier tanks were frequently not only packing way more firepower than I was, but moving as fast if not faster and with better maneuverability to boot. After my tenth spontaneous explosion for the night at the hands of the PzKpfw IV I so desperately wanted, I realized I was making all of about 90XP per loss. The PzKpfw IV requires 15,000XP to research, and no amount of Gold in the world could buy me one before that. Oh, and I still had to research, buy, and upgrade the PzKpfw 38nA before THAT.

I said "**** this," Alt+F4'd, and jumped on MWO, where I proceeded to faceroll some unsuspecting team in my Ilya Muromets. Will I go back to WoT to get my PzKpfw IV? Probably. Will I put any money into the game? Probably not - I just don't enjoy it that much, mostly due to my experiences as a new player.

So, what's this got to do with MWO? Simply put, it's pretty clear that PGI wants 3rd person (amongst other things) in to help improve the new player experience. By looking at what made me ragequit WoT earlier tonight, we might be able to figure out what isn't working in MWO for the average new player, who usually is lacking a support base or pre-existing MC to play with as most of us had.

Now, don't get me wrong, MWO isn't NEARLY as brutal on new players who go "I want that!" as WoT is, but there's still room for improvement. Here's some suggestions based on what I noticed worked (and didn't) for me as new player in WoT, and how they could apply to MWO. It's a short list, I promise:

• An actual, scripted tutorial. While I understood most of WoT's mechanics because I'm not stupid and pick up on things pretty quickly, the tutorial still gave me a few pointers I otherwise would've missed, like using shift for first person zoom, and hiding from enemy LOS entirely by hiding in bushes (I had no idea you actually didn't RENDER when you were hidden. In comparison, MWO is a far, FAR more complex game, and frankly, YouTube videos are not going to cut it. When you have the incredible array of things you're asked to understand and manage in MWO (spotting, radar, heat management, commander view, ECM, lock-ons, weapon groupings, location-based damage...the list goes on), you HAVE to walk people through it. Learning that your torso and legs move independently of one another is of minimal concern in comparison. Otherwise, they'll end up overwhelmed and leave before they spend a single cent.
  
• Revise the ENTIRE Trial 'Mech system. I've since realize that the reason I'm so hopelessly outclassed at all times in WoT is because I'm not putting the time into each tank to upgrade it and make it viable because I'm busy tech rushing right to the tank I want. MWO doesn't have this issue since you just buy everything outright, but the Trial 'Mechs present a serious issue. They're very, very rarely competitive in the metagame at all - the Hunchback -4SP and Catapult -K2 having thus far been the sole exceptions. Chances are it would be far better to fully explain how the game and 'MechLab work, have the player play some in 'Mechs that are custom designed to help new players learn the system rather than designed for TT, then give them a free 'Mech of their own to continue tweaking and learning the ropes on - ideally a Hunchback of their choice, since it can easily fill almost any role sans "ECM *******." This way, they'll have an opportunity to learn different playstyles and have something that could actually be rebuilt to stay competitive, as well as start them on the right foot towards whatever ride they eventually decide they really want. Of course, if they like the game enough to want to buy a 'Mech outright with MC, that's fine too - perhaps give them a one-time "new player discount" on a stock (read: non-Hero) 'Mech option instead of the free Hunchback. However, to get them to stay long enough to spend money, they have to actually like the game first, which will be greatly helped by the aforementioned tutorial far more than something like 3PV.
  
• Don't throw them to the sharks right off the bat. While I haven't played it myself, I understand that League of Legends doesn't actually allow you to play ranked games until you've completed a certain number of games. MWO could benefit from this too, pooling new players under a certain game number together, perhaps along with low ELO players. The important part is to keep them from being tossed in against Cataphract jump snipers and PPC boating Stalkers right off the bat. Nothing kills fun faster than a sense of hopelessness. Frankly, if I hadn't been penned in with the rookies in Tier 1 of World of Tanks, I would've dumped it a long time ago. Nobody likes dying in a few hits to experienced players, especially in games where you're not only just learning the ropes, but it takes forever to actually kill someone in comparison to most modern games.

tl;dr read the whole thing, don't be lazy. MWO, while less grindy than some of it's competitors, is still far from new player friendly. Third person view is ultimately putting a band-aid on a bullet hole - the new player experience needs significant reworking if PGI ever hopes to attract more than the most dedicated players.




If you have similar experiences with other F2P games, I'd love to hear them and how MWO could learn from the successes and mistakes of others.

I prefer Tank Police check it out nice story and crazy action scenes

[Cravgar]

There a lots of very good suggestions in here about how things could change but changing the game is not necessarily the answer. MWO has been built around encouraging community gaming. He first thing new players should do is find themselves a friendly unit to play with and learn from them.

This game presents a steep learning curve to anyone new to the game.

By helping new players understand the basics and teaching them the basic skills this in my opinion will help people far more than changing current game mechanics.

[Thirdstar]

Cravgar, on 28 March 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

There a lots of very good suggestions in here about how things could change but changing the game is not necessarily the answer. MWO has been built around encouraging community gaming. He first thing new players should do is find themselves a friendly unit to play with and learn from them.

This game presents a steep learning curve to anyone new to the game.

By helping new players understand the basics and teaching them the basic skills this in my opinion will help people far more than changing current game mechanics.

No. You know why? Because a majority of online gamers do not join any kind of clan. They don't. This is well known.

In a majority of the cases, the first reaction of a new player is not to find a clan to play with. The first reaction is to simply see if they like the game at all. And that's where improved new player experience comes in.

I shouldn't have to explain this.

[Matthew Craig]

Just wanted to respond to the OP, it seems fairly safe to say that tutorials and tweaks to the matchmaker will happen. We agree that we don't want the matchmaker throwing new players in with even average players as they need time to adjust. It's also no secret that the UI is getting work for helping new users and that testing grounds opens us up to do better tutorials.

With regard to trial mechs there's been internal discussion but its best if I leave it for design to speak about anything in that area.

Thanks for the well thought out post, as usual we hear you and share similar concerns :-)

[Cravgar]

Thirdstar, on 28 March 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

No. You know why? Because a majority of online gamers do not join any kind of clan. They don't. This is well known.

In a majority of the cases, the first reaction of a new player is not to find a clan to play with. The first reaction is to simply see if they like the game at all. And that's where improved new player experience comes in.

I shouldn't have to explain this.

We are all allowed an opinion and it doesn't not require the instant dismissal you have just made. I do not agree with all of what you have said as I know of people who have joined community teamspeak as very green pilots to get help and play in a community. What I suggested is one of many options new pilots have. Some prefer to ask for game changes I on the other hand want to help new pilots by giving them access to a player base with good knowledge as I personally feel they will become better pilots this way.

[Thirdstar]

Cravgar, on 28 March 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

We are all allowed an opinion and it doesn't not require the instant dismissal you have just made. I do not agree with all of what you have said as I know of people who have joined community teamspeak as very green pilots to get help and play in a community. What I suggested is one of many options new pilots have. Some prefer to ask for game changes I on the other hand want to help new pilots by giving them access to a player base with good knowledge as I personally feel they will become better pilots this way.

I wouldn't be half as confrontational if you had just offered joining a Clan as one option among many. What you did instead was state that no improvements to the new player experience were needed and that it would all be handled by player groups. This is patently absurd as a only a small fraction of new players ever join organized units.

Don't put forward a silly idea in lieu of actual improvements to game and I won't come down so hard on you next time.

You're allowed an opinion and I'm allowed to call that opinion uninformed and myopic.

[Wardem]

As an experience gamer but new player to MWO who was thrown into the deep end and had to figure it out in brief bouts of gameplay before being blown up by mechsharks, the testing ground is good but I would like to raise a suggestion of what would make it really fun for me and what would keep me playing regularly instead of whenever i'm feeling slightly masicistic here goes:

A new selectable game mode, that involves a single team of 8 fighing on a random map as normal with usual rewards, but instead of facing an enemy team of 8 random players, they face a computer controled force of tanks, mechs, gun instillations, even infantry thats randomly choosen based on the total experience level of the team, and they can often have an assigned mission, maybe even a fortress they need to work together to destroy etc (one person takes out the power for some heavy defences, while others rush the guns while others ambush the reinforcements etc etc), promoting a greater level of teamwork and variety in play.

Thats my two cents, i think this game desperately needs an option for co-operative play, at the moment it's fight other players or shoot unarmed dummies