136 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

With Clan equipment looming on the horizon, I am growing increasingly concerned with the current MC direction. Namely, that Clan equipment will be available for Inner Sphere pilots on a wide scale, including chassis.

No. No, no, no. NO. Do not do this.

I'm entirely behind allowing Clans into the game, and supporting them, but the minute you allow people in the IS to buy Clan tech, even at enhanced prices, all you're going to do is muddy the faction line and not make being IS/Clan mean anything at all.

I would be OK with some exceptions, like "Experimental builds" with 1 or 2 clan hard points - but if you start allowing Inner Sphere pilots to buy Mad Cats, they will, and then that's pretty much all they will use.

You'll hurt the faction dynamic and utterly crush the game if you do large scale mix-tech. You'll accelerate this even further if you make crossteching an MC thing. Just leave a clear divide between the factions and let players go to where they'd like: Worry about balancing through other methods like BV or some kind of Clan limitation.

tl/dr: Do NOT give the IS the ability to buy Mad Cats, and don't give the Clans the options to buy IS 'mechs, either. Keep the factions separate. Maybe introduce experimental IS 'mechs that can use Clan tech, or 2nd line mechs that can use IS tech, but that should be the absolute maximum extent of cross-tech.

EDIT: As talked about through much of the thread, I am also very much behind the idea of players having multiple pilot profiles with different loyalities, so everyone CAN access their Clan / IS tech at will, but you can't represent an IS/Merc faction with Clan gear and vice versa. I'm all for letting people have all the toys, but not at the same time.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 March 2013 - 09:32 PM.

[Zolaz]

Guess what ... *puts on prediction hat* PGI is going to do what you fear. You should probably just go ahead and be prepared for it. You know since it happened in TT and all the Mech Warrior games.

[DegeneratePervert]

Sorry man, but PGI knows they can make bank on Clan weapons and tech. They'll allow mixing.

[Victor Morson]

DegeneratePervert, on 29 March 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Sorry man, but PGI knows they can make bank on Clan weapons and tech. They'll allow mixing.

My concern is this will basically tank any income they have from the Inner Sphere 'mechs as EVERYONE will move to Clan tech. It's throwing out over half of their for-sale inventory.

It would be much more financially viable for them to instead allow alternate pilots and make each pilot tied to IS/Clan. That way you'd have people paying MC for both IS and Clan stuff in some cases (if they're in a unit on one side or the other, but want to mess with the new stuff). That'd be totally cool in my book.

But if they mixtech - and I agree, it's likely because I've seen a FRIGHTENING lack of long-term thinking in the MC pricing - they just end up outdating well over half the game. That's good for no one, including their bottom line after the initial month.

[INSEkT L0GIC]

Zolaz, on 29 March 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Guess what ... *puts on prediction hat* PGI is going to do what you fear. You should probably just go ahead and be prepared for it. You know since it happened in TT and all the Mech Warrior games.

They'll need to advance the timeline about 15 years or so for that.

[FupDup]

Victor Morson, on 29 March 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

But if they mixtech - and I agree, it's likely because I've seen a FRIGHTENING lack of long-term thinking in the MC pricing - they just end up outdating well over half the game.

They've already done this to SHS and on most mechs Endo as well, and are going to do it again when LBX gets solid slugs, and most variants are obsolete already...Battletech was built from the ground up to submit to power creep.


Note that I'm not saying I want MixTech (because I don't like direct-ugprades in competitive PvP games), I'm just saying that Battletech was built to be a powergamer's wet dream come true. PGI seems to be thinking the same thing right now with some of the things mentioned above...

Edited by FupDup, 29 March 2013 - 02:31 PM.

[DegeneratePervert]

Victor Morson, on 29 March 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

My concern is this will basically tank any income they have from the Inner Sphere 'mechs as EVERYONE will move to Clan tech. It's throwing out over half of their for-sale inventory.

It would be much more financially viable for them to instead allow alternate pilots and make each pilot tied to IS/Clan. That way you'd have people paying MC for both IS and Clan stuff in some cases (if they're in a unit on one side or the other, but want to mess with the new stuff). That'd be totally cool in my book.

But if they mixtech - and I agree, it's likely because I've seen a FRIGHTENING lack of long-term thinking in the MC pricing - they just end up outdating well over half the game. That's good for no one, including their bottom line after the initial month.

I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that the clan tech we get won't be "true" clan tech, in the table-top sense. It'll likely be pricier variations of current tech, with downsides. Since we won't be "Clan" pilots (as far as I can tell), we'll be IS robot-jockeys in stolen clan gear, rigged together with duct-tape and superglue. It probably won't be OP as hell, at least I hope.

Also, of course everyone is moving to Clan tech, people love the Mad-Cat. Personally, I'll be sticking to my Atlas and Jagermech.

[Tennex]

no IS chassis will be viable. this is the only way

i for one would like to see as many mechs as possible in competitive play


I think faction specific mechs would be cool though. but with the limited amount of content now, that just means that PGI gets to sell less stuff

so it probably won't happen.


Though i think a discount for faction specific mechs would be nice.

Edited by Tennex, 29 March 2013 - 02:27 PM.

[FupDup]

DegeneratePervert, on 29 March 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

It'll likely be pricier variations of current tech, with downsides.

If they can't even make Inner Sphere upgrades have downsides, I doubt that MixTech would be any different. Plus, all of the hardcore BT fans would burn down PGI's office and kill everyone inside and write "Helter Skelter" on the walls in their blood if PGI even dared to make Clan tech not obsolete the entire game twelve times over. The TT grognards simply will not tolerate balance.

Edited by FupDup, 29 March 2013 - 02:28 PM.

[Teralitha]

I think they already said somewhere that mixing tech will not be allowed. I wouldnt worry.... but then again they flip flop alot... so maybe you should worry.

[General Taskeen]

Yes, mix tech, because all Mech games had it and lore. Stop being a pre-emptive scared billy goat.

However, why worry about this over other issues present in the game already? The balance of some of the current game content is already whacky and needs to be addressed.

Edited by General Taskeen, 29 March 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[SgtMagor]

don't think there is any IS mechs that are compatible with clan tech in 3050 yet?

[OneEyed Jack]

FupDup, on 29 March 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

If they can't even make Inner Sphere upgrades have downsides, I doubt that MixTech would be any different. Plus, all of the hardcore BT fans would burn down PGI's office and kill everyone inside and write "Helter Skelter" on the walls in their blood if PGI even dared to make Clan tech not obsolete the entire game twelve times over. The TT grognards simply will not tolerate balance.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[FupDup]

OneEyed Jack, on 29 March 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

You have no idea what you're talking about.

If you fish out any other thread about the Clans, look for a post proposing that Clan tech gets toned down even just a little (such as something I like to do of proposing that Clan lasers have a longer beam duration). Whenever that happens, the purists come in and demand that Clan tech remains untouched. They haven't come to this thread yet, but it's only a matter of time.

Edited by FupDup, 29 March 2013 - 02:50 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

why don't ya wait until CW is introduced and then Clans before you sweat mixtech? Might not actually matter.

[Victor Morson]

General Taskeen, on 29 March 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Yes, mix tech, because all Mech games had it and lore. Stop being a pre-emptive scared billy goat.

While some IS pilots have clan tech in the lore, let's take a look at them - almost all of them are Princes, military commanders and the top level COs of very, very high level mercenary groups. More common are IS 'mechs modified to adopt 1 or 2 Clan weapons in the fluff; why I would be very cool with "Experimental" variants that can take a similar style of limited Clan tech.

What you did NOT see in the lore or any leagues governing past games (for this very reason) is entire armies of the IS fielding Daishis.

General Taskeen, on 29 March 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

However, why worry about this over other issues present in the game already? The balance of some of the current game content is already whacky and needs to be addressed.

Because if they are going to keep anywhere near their time table, in about two or three months we'll see the first Clan 'mechs. If those clan 'mechs are "available now for MC!" to IS pilots, we can throw our other designs out.

If the factions are kept restricted mostly, we can balance them in other ways. I'm all for - ALL for - allowing pilots to have an "alt" under the same account for the purposes of playing with Clan / IS stuff as well.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Teralitha, on 29 March 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

I think they already said somewhere that mixing tech will not be allowed. I wouldnt worry.... but then again they flip flop alot... so maybe you should worry.

Is that the same promise that 3PV wasn't for this game and anything they said about consumables?

*whistles*

[S3dition]

Victor Morson, on 29 March 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

With Clan equipment looming on the horizon, I am growing increasingly concerned with the current MC direction. Namely, that Clan equipment will be available for Inner Sphere pilots on a wide scale, including chassis.

No. No, no, no. NO. Do not do this.

I'm entirely behind allowing Clans into the game, and supporting them, but the minute you allow people in the IS to buy Clan tech, even at enhanced prices, all you're going to do is muddy the faction line and not make being IS/Clan mean anything at all.

I would be OK with some exceptions, like "Experimental builds" with 1 or 2 clan hard points - but if you start allowing Inner Sphere pilots to buy Mad Cats, they will, and then that's pretty much all they will use.

You'll hurt the faction dynamic and utterly crush the game if you do large scale mix-tech. You'll accelerate this even further if you make crossteching an MC thing. Just leave a clear divide between the factions and let players go to where they'd like: Worry about balancing through other methods like BV or some kind of Clan limitation.

tl/dr: Do NOT give the IS the ability to buy Mad Cats, and don't give the Clans the options to buy IS 'mechs, either. Keep the factions separate. Maybe introduce experimental IS 'mechs that can use Clan tech, or 2nd line mechs that can use IS tech, but that should be the absolute maximum extent of cross-tech.

While I share your concern, the problem is that nobody will ever run an IS mech again. Why would you ever pick an IS mech over a clan mech if you know better?

Without clan equipment, IS mechs are going to be a very rare sight (and will be dispatched very, very quickly).

[PANZERBUNNY]

They will have a way to enforce Zel and this will reduce mass effectiveness of Clan mechs.

They said some time ago that they were working on something.

IS will most certainly have to be crafty, but with our ability to pinpoint components, we won't have to worry about random dice rolls telling us where our shots land on a superior opponent.

[FupDup]

PANZERBUNNY, on 29 March 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

They will have a way to enforce Zel and this will reduce mass effectiveness of Clan mechs.

There are two downsides to Zell:

1. It would be boring to play as and encourage Rambo-esque playstyles.

2. Clanners only have to follow Zell if their opponents do as well. This means that as soon as Spheroids try to focus fire on them, they are no longer bound to follow Zell.

Edited by FupDup, 29 March 2013 - 03:25 PM.