136 replies to this topic

[OneEyed Jack]

FupDup, on 29 March 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

If you fish out any other thread about the Clans, look for a post proposing that Clan tech gets toned down even just a little (such as something I like to do of proposing that Clan lasers have a longer beam duration). Whenever that happens, the purists come in and demand that Clan tech remains untouched. They haven't come to this thread yet, but it's only a matter of time.

Clan equipment needs to be better than IS equipment to retain any resemblance to the IP at all, or make any sense for that matter. If you throw out the IP you alienate all the fans of said IP and wasted money paying for the rights.

You claim TT fans don't want balance, which is entirely false. We just want the balance to be more in implementation than in a massive nerf to all things Clan. Smaller nerfs, fine, but bringing everything to IS level would be stupid, and bring the IS instantly up to Clan tech level would be just as bad.

No, anyone that gives a damn about the IP doesn't want 1:1 balance, because if the balance is 1:1 why the hell are the Clans steamrolling the IS? That doesn't mean we don't want balance.

S3dition, on 29 March 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

While I share your concern, the problem is that nobody will ever run an IS mech again. Why would you ever pick an IS mech over a clan mech if you know better?

Without clan equipment, IS mechs are going to be a very rare sight (and will be dispatched very, very quickly).

Plenty of people still prefer playing as IS. You're correct that if they just say "a mech is a mech" and throw everything together, then there would be no IS mechs. That's why they need to balance forces, with advantages to the IS that aren't just tech-based.

FupDup, on 29 March 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

2. Clanners only have to follow Zell if their opponents do as well. This means that as soon as Spheroids try to focus fire on them, they are no longer bound to follow Zell.

I'm not arguing for it, but that mentality is something the Clanners only developed later.

[Zerberus]

Victor Morson, on 29 March 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

With Clan equipment looming on the horizon, I am growing increasingly concerned with the current MC direction. Namely, that Clan equipment will be available for Inner Sphere pilots on a wide scale, including chassis.

No. No, no, no. NO. Do not do this.

I'm entirely behind allowing Clans into the game, and supporting them, but the minute you allow people in the IS to buy Clan tech, even at enhanced prices, all you're going to do is muddy the faction line and not make being IS/Clan mean anything at all.

I would be OK with some exceptions, like "Experimental builds" with 1 or 2 clan hard points - but if you start allowing Inner Sphere pilots to buy Mad Cats, they will, and then that's pretty much all they will use.

You'll hurt the faction dynamic and utterly crush the game if you do large scale mix-tech. You'll accelerate this even further if you make crossteching an MC thing. Just leave a clear divide between the factions and let players go to where they'd like: Worry about balancing through other methods like BV or some kind of Clan limitation.

tl/dr: Do NOT give the IS the ability to buy Mad Cats, and don't give the Clans the options to buy IS 'mechs, either. Keep the factions separate. Maybe introduce experimental IS 'mechs that can use Clan tech, or 2nd line mechs that can use IS tech, but that should be the absolute maximum extent of cross-tech.

Aff. You are either a clanner, or you`re not. And in canon it would not be allowed for quite some time.

Put us exclusively in 8 vs 12 matches, or only match us against each other, or give us some other disadvantage (like LRMS being incapable of indirect fire, inability to equip tag or Narc on many variants to reflect zell ideology, canon-appropriate hardwiring of internals limiting configurability to weapons and ammo), or , or , or, but do not blur the line this soon.

Edited by Zerberus, 29 March 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[VanillaG]

S3dition, on 29 March 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

While I share your concern, the problem is that nobody will ever run an IS mech again. Why would you ever pick an IS mech over a clan mech if you know better?

Without clan equipment, IS mechs are going to be a very rare sight (and will be dispatched very, very quickly).

Simple, you change what you can customize based on the type of mech:

IS Mech - can change engine, heatsink type, structure, and armor to free up weight and space but have hardpoint limitations.

Clan Mechs - cannot change engine, heatsink type, structure, and armor so they have fixed weight and space but have no hardpoint limitations.

This give you 2 different ways to build mechs, you can build around fixed space and weight or around hardpoint limitations. Sure you could boat more clan weapons on an IS mech but you are limited by hardpoint constraints. Clan mechs give you more options of precisely placing your weapons but you can't mess around with available space or weight.

[KingDerp]

Clan Tech will be a monstrous mess.

Anything superior will be what the players instantly gravitate to.
Everyone will migrate to clan tech and no one will play IS mechs.

[Zolaz]

DegeneratePervert, on 29 March 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Also, of course everyone is moving to Clan tech, people love the Mad-Cat. Personally, I'll be sticking to my Atlas and Jagermech.

lol ... Wait till you get a load of the Dire Wolf ...

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

So you rather have half the mechs in this game simply inferior? At least if you mix tech the weapons, it still allows the IS mechs to be competitive in the super op utter bulls--- world that is Battletech Clan Tech.

You are are a fool if you want Clan Tech to be as strong as it is in TT. I'd use more colorful language, but I rather not have my post be deleted.


Mixtech is good. Allowing Clan Tech to remain ultra OP, is not.

[PANZERBUNNY]

They get less mechs on a drop.Have to play with the honour system or face penalties.

So what if weapons are slightly cooler, faster recharge and slight range benefits.

The weapons don't have to be overboard.

[FupDup]

OneEyed Jack, on 29 March 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Clan equipment needs to be better than IS equipment to retain any resemblance to the IP at all, or make any sense for that matter. If you throw out the IP you alienate all the fans of said IP and wasted money paying for the rights.

You claim TT fans don't want balance, which is entirely false. We just want the balance to be more in implementation than in a massive nerf to all things Clan. Smaller nerfs, fine, but bringing everything to IS level would be stupid, and bring the IS instantly up to Clan tech level would be just as bad.

No, anyone that gives a damn about the IP doesn't want 1:1 balance, because if the balance is 1:1 why the hell are the Clans steamrolling the IS? That doesn't mean we don't want balance.

Usually when I try to suggest things like Clan lasers having a much longer beam duration (i.e. CERLL would be 1.5s, to increase skill required to use), Clan ERPPCs not disabling ECM, the Clan pilot tree not giving stat buffs (IS gets stuff like +10% speed, maybe Clanners could just modify their hardpoint options until eventually becoming full-Omni) and other little negative quirks like that I don't get very good reception.

You seem more sensible than the stereotype folks I'm portraying, though.

Edited by FupDup, 29 March 2013 - 05:55 PM.

[Dudeman3k]

PGI will actually make Clan tech consumable modules. you spend 150MC on one piece of clan tech per/match. It's going to be awful. hahahahaha (I really hope they don't do this)

[S3dition]

OneEyed Jack, on 29 March 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Clan equipment needs to be better than IS equipment to retain any resemblance to the IP at all, or make any sense for that matter. If you throw out the IP you alienate all the fans of said IP and wasted money paying for the rights.

You claim TT fans don't want balance, which is entirely false. We just want the balance to be more in implementation than in a massive nerf to all things Clan. Smaller nerfs, fine, but bringing everything to IS level would be stupid, and bring the IS instantly up to Clan tech level would be just as bad.

No, anyone that gives a damn about the IP doesn't want 1:1 balance, because if the balance is 1:1 why the hell are the Clans steamrolling the IS? That doesn't mean we don't want balance.


Plenty of people still prefer playing as IS. You're correct that if they just say "a mech is a mech" and throw everything together, then there would be no IS mechs. That's why they need to balance forces, with advantages to the IS that aren't just tech-based.


I'm not arguing for it, but that mentality is something the Clanners only developed later.

They prefer playing IS from a lore standpoint. But how long would you play if you lost every match? How long would you play if LRM boats could run up and alpha strike from 20m away for full damage? How long do you think jenner pilots will stick around when clan lights run SSRM6 boats?

Yes, there are people who prefer to play IS (I lean towards it myself) but why would I ever want to spend an afternoon as free kills for clan pilots? People will become frustrated and either A) go clan or quit playing.

They can do some balancing acts like make it 12 vs 10 or distribute clan technology to go on IS mechs.

[FupDup]

S3dition, on 29 March 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

They can do some balancing acts like make it 12 vs 10 or distribute clan technology to go on IS mechs.

If PGI decides to go with asymmetrical team sizes, 12v10 would be horrible because it assumes that each Clan mech is only 20% better than an IS mech (there is no definitive % of superiority for Clan mechs, but it sure as heck is higher than 20%). 5v8 is the smallest possible team size variation that could work for that (it assumes that Clan mechs are 60% better, which sounds more realistic).


Putting Clan tech on IS mechs might fit the classic Battletech mold of straight-upgrades, but in practice it would break the game in half and remove IS tech from all mechs except trials and roleplayers. The way to avoid making IS mechs obsolete would be to use the aforementioned asymmetrical teams...but the problem with that is that you effectively split up groups of friends who want to play together (what if Billy runs a Clan mech but wants to play with his IS buddy Joe?).

I honestly don't see any humanly-possible way out of this dilemma. I don't envy the people who have to attempt to balance the monster that is the Clans.

Edited by FupDup, 29 March 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[S3dition]

FupDup, on 29 March 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

If PGI decides to go with asymmetrical team sizes, 12v10 would be horrible because it assumes that each Clan mech is only 20% better than an IS mech (there is no definitive % of superiority for Clan mechs, but it sure as heck is higher than 20%). 5v8 is the smallest possible team size variation that could work for that (it assumes that Clan mechs are 60% better, which sounds more realistic).


Putting Clan tech on IS mechs might fit the classic Battletech mold of straight-upgrades, but in practice it would break the game in half and remove IS tech from all mechs except trials and roleplayers. The way to avoid making IS mechs obsolete would be to use the aforementioned asymmetrical teams...but the problem with that is that you effectively split up groups of friends who want to play together (what if Billy runs a Clan mech but wants to play with his IS buddy Joe?).

I honestly don't see any humanly-possible way out of this dilemma. I don't envy the people who have to attempt to balance the monster that is the Clans.

It wouldn't break the game. An atlas with clan tech isn't better than a dire wolf with clan tech. Why would you use IS tech in IS mechs? You wouldn't They come with it and it's super, super expensive to purchase. It's an upgrade path.

[FupDup]

S3dition, on 29 March 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

It wouldn't break the game. An atlas with clan tech isn't better than a dire wolf with clan tech. Why would you use IS tech in IS mechs? You wouldn't. They come with it and it's super, super expensive to purchase. It's an upgrade path.

This is where the great dilemma comes into play:

Option A: Mixtech (assumes that Clan and IS mechs are interchangable in team compositions)
Upsides: IS mechs not obsolete
Downsides: IS weapons and other gear become nonexistent in everywhere except the steering wheel underhive of Elo (CERML is practically a 1 ton/1 crit version of the ISLL, CLRMS have no minimum range, Clan XL doesn't cause death when you lose a side torso and only takes 2 crits, etc.). It would also cause some severe imbalances unlike anything this game has ever seen before (imagine a Splatapult loaded with 6 Streak SRM6...).

Option B: Asymmetrical Team Sizes (small Clan team vs larger IS team, can't mix the two)
Upsides: IS weapons and gear not rendered obsolete
Downsides: Splits up friends (IS players might want to play with their Clanner friends and vice-versa). It would also just be hard as heck in general to make it so each side has a roughly 50% win rate (one of the other would be at a huge advantage most of the time depending on the numbers chosen).


Maybe I'm just not creative enough, but I don't see any way out of this that doesn't come with significant drawbacks.

Edited by FupDup, 29 March 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Belorion]

Mixed tech is part of the fun...

I can see possibly having a period of time with no mixed tech, but then as the IS win more battles that clan tech will start to trickle into general usage.

[Lord Psycho]

this is from sarna.net:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech
Disadvantages

Despite their flexibility and maintenance benefits, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics.
OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components: its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech. ^[19] While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms it from a OmniMech into a standard BattleMech. While they can be considered structural components, the lower-arm and hand actuators are themselves pod-mounted and easily removed to provide additional pod-space in the arms. However the mounting points for them are also utilized by larger bore weaponry such as Gauss Rifles, Autocannons and PPCs and so must be automatically removed to carry these weapon types an OmniMech's arms, hampering the close-combat abilities of these configurations. ^[20]
With further regard to costs, even OmniMechs constructed from standard materials are more expensive than comparable BattleMechs of similar weight to both construct and field. While the initial invasion gave the impression that Clan toumans consisted solely of OmniMechs, even they can only afford to outfit their front-line units with them, with their so-called second-line forces generally fielding more cost effective standard BattleMechs, albeit utilizing superior Clan technology.^[21]
The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, only the ammunition can be used interchangeably. Adding or removing the Pod connections is possible but adds additional time to repairs. If weaponry and equipment are mounted on an OmniMech without an OmniPod, this equipment is fixed. For mixed units of BattleMechs and OmniMechs this adds an artificial separation and duplication in supply chains and logistics for spare parts.^[18]

Yeah..I'd use a IS mech...with clan tech...and more then likely not use a CLan mech much unless they have about say...6 variants each?

[TB Freelancer]

I shouldn't be surprised that some neck beard is moaning about puretech. Its been happening for over a decade...

...thankfully the world of reality doesn't work like their fantasies.

[Teralitha]

Belorion, on 29 March 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Mixed tech is part of the fun...

I can see possibly having a period of time with no mixed tech, but then as the IS win more battles that clan tech will start to trickle into general usage.

Until what... the game becomes noting but clan assault mechs or IS mechs with all clan weapons and tech on board? How tech is handled needs to be static, not progressive. otherwise why wait? Let IS mechs load full clan tech on day one! Lets really break the game shall we.

This is not a tabletop game and this is not canon. Its an online computer game, and never at any time should mixed tech ever be allowed for the sake of fair game play. In order for MWO to be a fair and balanced game it must ignore may parts of canon battletech. They already messed up by adding double heat sinks and coolant pods. And a broken ECM with every possible IW advantage in it, and you saw how that went....

Devs... we dont need anymore canon stuff added to the game that only makes it more unbalanced. Its time to focus on what you have now and refine it, not add more broken crap from canon.

Edited by Teralitha, 29 March 2013 - 06:51 PM.

[Tezcatli]

I think it'd be kinda interesting if it wasn't simply a matter of buying whatever chasis or clan part they want. Like building a reputation with a faction by fighting under their banner in community warfare. Or something like that. At least they have to work through it with their regular gear and mechs. I know it's another grind and I hate grinds. But it would help to dissipate the amount of clan tech going around. Though I imagine the super hardcore fans will dominate the battlefield.

[Teralitha]

Tezcatli, on 29 March 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Though I imagine the super hardcore fans will dominate the battlefield.

The super hardcore fans dont even want clan tech in the game.

[Suprentus]

Teralitha, on 29 March 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

Until what... the game becomes noting but clan assault mechs or IS mechs with all clan weapons and tech on board? How tech is handled needs to be static, not progressive. otherwise why wait? Let IS mechs load full clan tech on day one! Lets really break the game shall we.

This is not a tabletop game and this is not canon. Its an online computer game, and never at any time should mixed tech ever be allowed for the sake of fair game play. In order for MWO to be a fair and balanced game it must ignore may parts of canon battletech. They already messed up by adding double heat sinks and coolant pods. And a broken ECM with every possible IW advantage in it, and you saw how that went....

Devs... we dont need anymore canon stuff added to the game that only makes it more unbalanced. Its time to focus on what you have now and refine it, not add more broken crap from canon.