136 replies to this topic

[Warlune]

just an idea I had that relates to this
http://mwomercs.com/...04#entry2152404

[Nightfangs]

Victor Morson, on 29 March 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

With Clan equipment looming on the horizon, I am growing increasingly concerned with the current MC direction. Namely, that Clan equipment will be available for Inner Sphere pilots on a wide scale, including chassis.

No. No, no, no. NO. Do not do this.

I'm entirely behind allowing Clans into the game, and supporting them, but the minute you allow people in the IS to buy Clan tech, even at enhanced prices, all you're going to do is muddy the faction line and not make being IS/Clan mean anything at all.

I would be OK with some exceptions, like "Experimental builds" with 1 or 2 clan hard points - but if you start allowing Inner Sphere pilots to buy Mad Cats, they will, and then that's pretty much all they will use.

You'll hurt the faction dynamic and utterly crush the game if you do large scale mix-tech. You'll accelerate this even further if you make crossteching an MC thing. Just leave a clear divide between the factions and let players go to where they'd like: Worry about balancing through other methods like BV or some kind of Clan limitation.

tl/dr: Do NOT give the IS the ability to buy Mad Cats, and don't give the Clans the options to buy IS 'mechs, either. Keep the factions separate. Maybe introduce experimental IS 'mechs that can use Clan tech, or 2nd line mechs that can use IS tech, but that should be the absolute maximum extent of cross-tech.

THIS!

Don't freaking try to mix/balance things that were NEVER meant to be mixed/balanced! Please, please, please.
Why was every little MC-purchase up to now a sacrilege, but THIS is not p2w?

And they could sell Clan-Tech for MC only without mixing it with IS-Tech! Don't just use the "they need the money"-card for every stupid mistake that could happen.

[Khobai]

Quote

MW2 and MW3 had clan tech capabilities

Yeah huge time gap between those games and MWO... in MW2 and MW3, innersphere had developed their own omnimechs.

MW2 = 3057
MW3 = 3059
MWO = 3050

[Brilig]

Everyone who is playing the game should be able to access any of the Mechs, and weapons in the game. I don't want to have to create two accounts to play all of the Mechs I like. You should also be able to use clan weapons on IS Mechs.

[Demos]

Balance ClanTech versus other means.
Drops will be 5 vs. 8 or 10 vs. 12 (with matchmaking improved to account for some combat values/tonnage)

Also, give Clan Players a (slight) negative income and XP for Kill Assists.
This would reflect Zellbriggen quite perfectly and will lead to clanners killing themselves. Muahahaha!

[Billygoat]

Victor Morson, on 29 March 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

It would be much more financially viable for them to instead allow alternate pilots and make each pilot tied to IS/Clan. That way you'd have people paying MC for both IS and Clan stuff in some cases (if they're in a unit on one side or the other, but want to mess with the new stuff). That'd be totally cool in my book.

This idea way back page 1 is probably the best one as regards mixing tech & player access. Allow every account to have a "Clan pilot" and an "IS pilot" with separate inventories & XP pools (shared GXP is probably fine) but no mixing tech between factions. Then allowing clan tech to be "better" (though some possible downsides like increased heat generation, no customisation beyond pods on Omnimechs, etc) would be fine and balance could be achieved at a faction level rather than at an individual item level.

[Fooooo]

Billygoat, on 30 March 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

This idea way back page 1 is probably the best one as regards mixing tech & player access. Allow every account to have a "Clan pilot" and an "IS pilot" with separate inventories & XP pools (shared GXP is probably fine) but no mixing tech between factions. Then allowing clan tech to be "better" (though some possible downsides like increased heat generation, no customisation beyond pods on Omnimechs, etc) would be fine and balance could be achieved at a faction level rather than at an individual item level.

I'd say this is the most likely route.

Either through a 2nd pilot that can only use clan mechs, or some button where you can switch your mechbay to "clanner" (and also take on the flag of the clan faction you chose, obv you only get to choose this once).

There would imo have to be some type of timer or something to stop people switching willy nilly.......so say once you choose to swap to your clanner mechbay, you can't go back to IS for a week or something.

Edited by Fooooo, 30 March 2013 - 10:14 AM.

[Shadowsword8]

Victor Morson, on 29 March 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

tl/dr: Do NOT give the IS the ability to buy Mad Cats, and don't give the Clans the options to buy IS 'mechs, either. Keep the factions separate. Maybe introduce experimental IS 'mechs that can use Clan tech, or 2nd line mechs that can use IS tech, but that should be the absolute maximum extent of cross-tech.

A large majority of players will lean toward clan mechs. Because it's more powerfull for solo pugs, and because the perspective of playing a non-competitive mech will only appeal to roleplayers, and challenge lovers.

If you want to keep a clear separation, all you'll do in practical terms will be push the players that want to play both clan and IS into the pure Clan side.



The best way to make IS chassis viables on a one on one basis (yes, one on one, the fans of the 5v8 theory are deluding themselves, as it would make the waiting queue intolerable for clan pilots) without turning background on it's head, would be to give IS mechs special "spellcasting" abilities, namely aerial and artillery bombardement (though the current versions would need a boost), and/or slaved weapons (tanks, choppers) as auxiliaries.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Khobai, on 30 March 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

Yeah huge time gap between those games and MWO... in MW2 and MW3, innersphere had developed their own omnimechs.

MW2 = 3057
MW3 = 3059
MWO = 3050

Their own omni mechs doesn't mean their own Clan Tech. All it means is pod based mech design.

Also, Clans can drop against Clans. Not sure if anyone has factored this in.

[FupDup]

Shadowsword8, on 30 March 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

The best way to make IS chassis viables on a one on one basis (yes, one on one, the fans of the 5v8 theory are deluding themselves, as it would make the waiting queue intolerable for clan pilots) without turning background on it's head, would be to give IS mechs special "spellcasting" abilities, namely aerial and artillery bombardement (though the current versions would need a boost), and/or slaved weapons (tanks, choppers) as auxiliaries.

There can also be some special weapon quirks associated with Clan weapons to reduce their cheesiness, such as:

Clan Lasers: Longer beam duration (i.e. CERLL would be 1.5s, compared to ISLL of 1.0s)
Clan ERPPC: Can't disable ECM
Clan Flamers: Nobody uses Flamers, lol
Clan LRMs: Can't indirect fire, should also do really low damage in close quarters (no minimum range + full damage = Splatcat that kills at all ranges with lock-on)
Clan SRMs: Wider spread and/or slower missile speed?
Clan SSRMs: Slower lock-on time and/or slower speed?
Clan Narc: Nobody uses Narc
Clan Ballistics: Slower reload time (reload rates aren't canon, after all) and/or slower projectile speed
Clan MGs: Nobody uses MGs


If that's not enough, the pilot tree could even get an overhaul for Clanners. IS mechs get to have generic +stat boosts like +10% speed, etc. Clan mechs could start out with a highly-restrictive hardpoint system like IS mechs, but could make their mounts more open-ended as they progress through the pilot tree. Example: A Timberwolf's left arm might start with one energy hardpoint. When you get enough XP, you could upgrade it to Direct Fire (ballistic or energy allowed) or Heat Generating (missile or energy allowed). After they get both upgrades for that one hardpoint, it becomes an Omni hardpoint (can fit any weapon).

The main drawback of such a new pilot tree, though, would be that it could allow for some seriously cheesy configurations.

[Victor Morson]

Brilig, on 30 March 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

Everyone who is playing the game should be able to access any of the Mechs, and weapons in the game. I don't want to have to create two accounts to play all of the Mechs I like. You should also be able to use clan weapons on IS Mechs.

I'm all for allowing two pilots under the same account, so you can share premimum time and MC pools, but if you "give all the mechs you like" to both pilots/factions, all that will happen again is trashing 50% of the 'mech inventory and knocking it to "2nd class" status. You don't REALLY want that.

What you want is to drive your favorite 'mech, not EVERYONE to be driving your favorite 'mech. You need to think this through.

Long story short, I do entirely endorse the idea of allowing multiple "pilots" on a single account when CW shows up in general. Even outside of the Clan/IS pilot idea, some players might like to have a faction soldier alt to go with their Merc Corp pilot or something. I think sharing premium time / MC between them is paramount.

At least with that system you would let pilots like yourself have access to both the IS 'mechs and the Clan 'mechs, without having access to both at the same time, the last part being the most important.

Hell, I'm a die-hard IS player and I would like to toy with Clan tech on a "second pilot" when it arrives, even if it's not something I'd play seriously.

tl/dr: Give everyone access to everything but NOT at the same time; keep faction pilots with their unique major faction 'mechs!

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 March 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[Victor Morson]

A response to the few people ludicrously bringing up Zell:
- We're talking about IS pilots with Clan 'mechs, making Zell a moot point
- Zell is hard as hell to keep track of when you have ten minutes a turn and a notepad
- Zell is a terribly overcomplicated system that could seriously use a reboot, nobody could possibly honor it even if they were trying to in a real time environment.

This is not nor ever will be a way to balance Clan tech in MW:O. The closest I would accept is a small XP penalty for engaging a target recently shot at by someone else (very small), conveying the spirit of the thing. Honestly this isn't a good idea but it's the only thing I could see working in realtime.

Shadowsword8, on 30 March 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

A large majority of players will lean toward clan mechs. Because it's more powerfull for solo pugs, and because the perspective of playing a non-competitive mech will only appeal to roleplayers, and challenge lovers.

No matter how it's balanced when it comes out, they hopefully will have considered putting something akin to a BV system in by then, to try to match make enough of a weight (if not outright numbers) difference to balance it.

While it could have used some tweaking, Living Legends had interesting battles in organized play largely because Clantech was MUCH more expensive - with some Clan lights running into the price of an IS Assault - and it worked out very well. If Matchmaker starts throwing larger/far heavier IS forces against lighter/less numerical Clan forces, I think you could balance their equipment on a metagame level rather than a per-shot level.

Lots of pugs would still chose them for the power, sure, but plenty would still prefer having the weight, even with inferior weapons.

I'm just saying that IS vs Clan balance can be done well; we just need an improved matchmaker, but that's something we already needed.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 March 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[PANZERBUNNY]

BV would be great. Every weapon on your machine or taken off your machine raises or reduces your BV.

Depending on your drop load out it may benefit your team to have an under armed Atlas or other heavy mech.

[Hedonism Robot]

Yup pretty sure when clan tech comes out i will be able to install it in my IS mechs. The only big difference will be the omni slots on the clan chassis. As long as the process of building the mech is a bit different in mechlab I will be happy. To the people that are upset about this from a lore standpoint, the game already breaks canon by every mech being loaded with massively expensive rare hardware (double heatsinks, ferro, endo, etc). Keep in mind the IS mechs that got stomped by the clans were the trial mechs in the game, not our supped up custom jobs.

That said, I am very curious to see how PGI handles the Clan weapons. If they were thrown into the game using TT rules it would turn the game into a one shot alpha strike slaughter. Imagine 6 Clan ER PPC Timberwolf hitting for 90 dmg with less heat than current ppcs. Other things like UAC 20's would also destroy the game.

[Victor Morson]

Hedonism Robot, on 30 March 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Yup pretty sure when clan tech comes out i will be able to install it in my IS mechs. The only big difference will be the omni slots on the clan chassis. As long as the process of building the mech is a bit different in mechlab I will be happy. To the people that are upset about this from a lore standpoint, the game already breaks canon by every mech being loaded with massively expensive rare hardware (double heatsinks, ferro, endo, etc). Keep in mind the IS mechs that got stomped by the clans were the trial mechs in the game, not our supped up custom jobs.

While I am a lore person, I always also am a "MW:O first" player as well. I will bust lore in 5 places if it something necessary for the game, and maintains the "spirit of the thing."

The problem with cross faction tech, again, is not from a lore standpoint. Not with me.

The problem is if you allow the purchase of Clan equipment and 'mechs, you remove the point from the IS equipment and 'mechs, or relegate them to second rate status - hard. You are literally throwing half the game's content in the trash.

It's pretty much the same principle that prevents popular RTS games from allowing unrestricted faction unit mixing. There's no point in HAVING factions if you do this.

By keeping the factions separate (and again, allowing people to toggle pilots to play either) you create, instead, all kinds of tactical depth and complexity to the game as each side tries to figure out how to use their advantages and avoid their disadvantages. This is why I'm a big fan of metagame faction balancing, and also why I believe there won't be a point in faction balancing at all if IS forces are allowed to buy Clan technology.

Long story short: You give Clan tech to everyone, you destroy half of MW:O's content. You keep the factions separate, you add tons of complexity instead.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 March 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Merky Merc]

Mixtech allows for IS mechs to not become obsolete. Puretech only leads to the eventual extinction of our current mechs. While a few will certainly continue to use them for RP purposes or what have you, it is probable that most players will migrate into clan mechs either through becoming "clanners" or through the eventual obtaining of clan mechs by IS units.

[Victor Morson]

Merky Merc, on 30 March 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Mixtech allows for IS mechs to not become obsolete. Puretech only leads to the eventual extinction of our current mechs. While a few will certainly continue to use them for RP purposes or what have you, it is probable that most players will migrate into clan mechs either through becoming "clanners" or through the eventual obtaining of clan mechs by IS units.

Again, it does not have to work out this way.

Like I mentioned, Living Legends found a balance between Clan and IS. The Clan forces would clock in much lighter than the IS forces, sure, but by valuing the Clan 'mechs higher (and in matchmaker terms, seeking these kinds of pairings out automatically), there's no reason you can't have really fun asymmetrical fights.

For example, in LL (as a base point), you could get a team of Awesomes, Maulers, Bushwackers and a scout or two up against a star of Pumas, Shadow Cats and a couple Thors and it was a blast. The IS tech's advantages (less heat per shot) could be played to maximum potential and the fights with this IS vs Clan kind of mindset were very unique and different than Clan vs Clan or IS vs IS.

This is what I'd like to see again. Metagame balancing to Clan forces to allow for tonnage-mismatched teams. It might take a few patches to get smooth but it seems infinitely more desirable to me than simply removing half of the weapons from the game.

Please keep in mind this is NOT single player MW4, where the Clan 'mechs and weapons were clearly the "T2 upgrade." Alas, it's not late enough in the timeline where I could argue the factions are "different but equal" like I could after the invention of the HGR and RAC. But by matching value we have a great solution ready to go.

[Stone Profit]

Victor Morson, on 29 March 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

With Clan equipment looming on the horizon, I am growing increasingly concerned with the current MC direction. Namely, that Clan equipment will be available for Inner Sphere pilots on a wide scale, including chassis.

No. No, no, no. NO. Do not do this.

I'm entirely behind allowing Clans into the game, and supporting them, but the minute you allow people in the IS to buy Clan tech, even at enhanced prices, all you're going to do is muddy the faction line and not make being IS/Clan mean anything at all.

I would be OK with some exceptions, like "Experimental builds" with 1 or 2 clan hard points - but if you start allowing Inner Sphere pilots to buy Mad Cats, they will, and then that's pretty much all they will use.

You'll hurt the faction dynamic and utterly crush the game if you do large scale mix-tech. You'll accelerate this even further if you make crossteching an MC thing. Just leave a clear divide between the factions and let players go to where they'd like: Worry about balancing through other methods like BV or some kind of Clan limitation.

tl/dr: Do NOT give the IS the ability to buy Mad Cats, and don't give the Clans the options to buy IS 'mechs, either. Keep the factions separate. Maybe introduce experimental IS 'mechs that can use Clan tech, or 2nd line mechs that can use IS tech, but that should be the absolute maximum extent of cross-tech.

Well, since the difference between clan and innersphere tech is the size of the equipment, it would not be the problem your describing. Just let us put clan weps on is mech, no engines armor heat sinks or IS though.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I'm one of those who will stay IS. Victor has many good ideas, hopefully some of them will be used by the Dev's.
As someone mentioned already, the mechs running in MWO bear no relationship to the cannon mechs slaughtered by the Clans.
Yes there is a tech gap, but it's lower than some think.
For those saying - I want it all - no, there has to be a distinction or the game becomes pointless.
Maybe some of the "weird" balance decisions have been because they have been looking at Clan tech on their test servers as well as IS.
Going by the timelines we have been given for CW, I'm not sure that we will see Clan mechs being available until the Autumn. Hopefully by then we will have a working MM.

[Zerberus]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 30 March 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

I'm one of those who will stay IS. Victor has many good ideas, hopefully some of them will be used by the Dev's.
As someone mentioned already, the mechs running in MWO bear no relationship to the cannon mechs slaughtered by the Clans.
Yes there is a tech gap, but it's lower than some think.
For those saying - I want it all - no, there has to be a distinction or the game becomes pointless.
Maybe some of the "weird" balance decisions have been because they have been looking at Clan tech on their test servers as well as IS.
Going by the timelines we have been given for CW, I'm not sure that we will see Clan mechs being available until the Autumn. Hopefully by then we will have a working MM.

Blasphemy!! How dare you inject logic into a discussion on these forums?

Next thing you know somebody will point to clan mechs being generally "run hotter" and therefore could be royally screwed by the current DHS implementation....