136 replies to this topic

[Merky Merc]

Victor Morson, on 30 March 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

This is what I'd like to see again. Metagame balancing to Clan forces to allow for tonnage-mismatched teams. It might take a few patches to get smooth but it seems infinitely more desirable to me than simply removing half of the weapons from the game.

I have yet to see evidence in MWO that tonnage mismatched teams will ever be balanced. As for the second part, in every game things eventually become "obsolete" barring some FPSes. If MLs go extinct in favor of CERMLs then we're not losing some amazing element to the game as I suspect the development time to make these new weapons is going to take all of 5 minutes. And mixtech allows for our IS mechs currently in game to still have a place even when clan mechs and IS omnimechs come into play, without mixtech you will eventually see some chassis go extinct, which you seem to want to avoid.

[Pinselborste]

Clan tech and IS tech both need downsides, doesnt matter if canon or not.Overpowered clan tech will lead to 90 % of players playing clan and the rest to leave the game.

most of the players dont even know the TT game, they just want a fun and fair game and not being free kills for the guys in the overpowered mechs.

This game shouldnt be here for TT fans onl, it has to get a bigger player base.

Edited by Pinselborste, 30 March 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[LordBraxton]

At this rate I expect the to allow mixed tech

because ever since open beta they have been doing everything they can to ruin this game

[Jakob Knight]

The simple fact is that they cannot introduce Clantech into the game and not make it available to all players without violating their own guidelines for the game...namely that all players will have equal access to all technology.

This has already been the case in the game, with all players able to get advanced weaponry such as ERPPCs, Ultra Autocannon, TAG, and others, regardless of national affiliation. Clantech is no different than this in terms of game access.

And, in game terms, there is no reason not to allow Inner Sphere pilots to use Clan items, as all are competing in the same arenas, and so the playing field must be leveled if the game is to remain competitive. Restricting advanced technology just because a certain section of the playerbase wants to have exclusive rights to that technology to feel superior to others is in no way a valid reason for doing such.

And, from a Lore standpoint, it was quite possible for Inner Sphere units to use salvaged Clan technology on their 'mechs. Thus, from a game balance, lore, company veracity, and common sense standpoint, there is no reason to restrict technology.

[Victor Morson]

Jakob Knight, on 30 March 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

This has already been the case in the game, with all players able to get advanced weaponry such as ERPPCs, Ultra Autocannon, TAG, and others, regardless of national affiliation.  Clantech is no different than this in terms of game access.

All of these technologies are spread around the IS thanks to how salvage works in the BattleTech universe.  In the InnerSphere, you can aquire any at the right price - and eventually loyalty points will serve to show that difference.  It's just not implemented yet.  (Well not just salvage but sale sale - FWL got rich exporting it's tech in the 3050s to fight the Clans.)

Clan tech is, however, UNIQUELY different to IS technologies; not just one or two faction-improved weapons. It's just flat out better in 3050, with the IS only possessing a heat advantage on a ton for ton basis in general.  It should be kept that way; it's lighter, hits harder and has more range.  While some things might need to be tuned (like ER PPC damage being brought more into line between them), overall, this is the spirit of Clan tech.

Now if a player can pick a pilot for either faction and flip at will he's basically going to see:

CLAN - Superior tech, inferior (Numbers / Tonnage / Battlevalue / Something metagame)
IS - Inferior tech, superior tonnage, armor, tends to run cooler, possibly numbers

That's cool.  That's two entirely different play styles right there.  That means IS vs IS, Clan vs Clan, and Is vs Clan all have their own flavor.  Every player has access to both techs, but not at the same time; they're either playing Clan or they're not.

I'm all for that.  However, if you instead simply give both sides access to everything, that's gone.  No distinction.  No unique play style.  Just inferior IS stuff and superior Clan stuff, the IS stuff going in the trash bin.  Maybe it'll get dusted off and fit with Clan weapons on some gimmicks.

It will suck.

There's no reason to do it.  Making the two "major overfactions" split you're going to do a huge service to the game for both sides and make it a more unique, memorable and dynamic experience.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 March 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Ecouto]

But... But ? Can I haz madcat :c ? and I dont want to be an evil clanner!

[Victor Morson]

Ecouto, on 30 March 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

But... But ? Can I haz madcat :c ? and I dont want to be an evil clanner!

This right here is the kind of player (well, the one you're mocking anyway) that'll doom us. They want to be an IS house with the latest Clan gear, removing any distinction between the factions.

I just want a game where the factions have their own unique feels - in particular in the IS vs Clan setup - and don't allow for rampant crossteching. I think if they did just add a small amount of, say, "Clan slots" to a few 'mechs it'd be kind of unique and not entirely out of canon, but the minute they start selling Clan chassis and 'mechs that can mount more than a couple, IS tech tech is entirely dead.

EDIT: I would be OK with very specific exceptions, like if crossteching was only allowed if you were in the top 3 ranks for a major unit, depending if they keep their original pitch of how each unit in the IS will have it's own ranking structure, or something neat that way. Having it be a one-in-a-thousand thing would be fine, if people want to cite lore stuff on this. But if it's "Mad Cat: Buy now! 10,000mc!" everyone will have one, PGI will get one big paycheck and then see a huge drop as it gets boring as hell immediately afterward.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 March 2013 - 04:55 PM.

[Pinselborste]

players should be allowed to own clan mechs and Is mechs at the same time, for CW, have to different ratings, one for clan mechs and one for IS ones.

[Merky Merc]

Victor Morson, on 30 March 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

This right here is the kind of player (well, the one you're mocking anyway) that'll doom us. They want to be an IS house with the latest Clan gear, removing any distinction between the factions.

We can already use mechs across "factions" that are supposed to be faction specific. Apparently we're already doomed anytime any non-Liao is in a ECM mech, or any (er) pulse laser user that isn't a kurita.

Mechs/weapons being specific to certain factions is not going to work. Making certain things cheaper for certain factions will. And a FedSun pilot in a Mad Cat isn't going to suddenly kill off community warfare in whatever form it ends up taking.

[El Bandito]

Sure Clan gear might be expensive but so what? With enough time everyone can grind it. Just make it super expensive.

Don't think of Clan gear as OP. Think of it as an upgrade. You don't stick with your starter tank in WoT right? Same thing here. IS weapons are never going to be extinct as newer players are better off playing IS tech due to high cost/benefit ratio.

PGI can even make separate Clan tech/IS tech queue.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 March 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

El Bandito, on 30 March 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Sure Clan gear might be expensive but so what? With enough time everyone can grind it. Just make it super expensive.

Don't think of Clan gear as OP. Think of it as an upgrade. You don't stick with your starter tank in WoT right? Same thing here. IS weapons are never going to be extinct as newer players are better off playing IS tech due to high cost/benefit ratio.

PGI can even make separate Clan tech/IS tech queue.

As I explained previously, higher cost does not solve any problems, it just creates more problems. It needs to be unavailable entirely to Inner Sphere Houses. No one would ever have a reason to buy IS stuff or IS hero variants anymore; they would just get Clan Tech instead. IS Tech would be obsolete. Everyone would roll in a Madcat or Shadow Cat; the game would get broken/stupid, and very quickly. People that bought IS hero variants will NOT be happy if a shiny new Clanner hero renders it obsolete. Not only would it make little to no sense for IS to get Clan Tech, but it'd also create a huge host of balance issues. Best solution=Keep Clan Tech away from IS Houses. Restrict it to a Clan Faction(s). Make unevenly sided IS vs Clan game modes.

[Merky Merc]

Bluten, on 30 March 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

No one would ever have a reason to buy IS stuff or IS hero variants anymore; they would just get Clan Tech instead. IS Tech would be obsolete. Everyone would roll in a Madcat or Shadow Cat; the game would get broken/stupid, and very quickly. People that bought IS hero variants will NOT be happy if a shiny new Clanner hero renders it obsolete.

That clan medium is really expensive. Good thing I can buy some Clan weapons to stick in my HBK so I'm not outgunned and so my favorite mech doesn't serve as target practice for clanners.

Oh hey triple clan UAC/10 Ilya. I would not be upset about the inclusion of clan weapons + my shiny (ish) hero mech.

[Pinselborste]

Bluten, on 30 March 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

No one would ever have a reason to buy IS stuff or IS hero variants anymore; they would just get Clan Tech instead. IS Tech would be obsolete. Everyone would roll in a Madcat or Shadow Cat; the game would get broken/stupid, and very quickly. People that bought IS hero variants will NOT be happy if a shiny new Clanner hero renders it obsolete. Not only would it make little to no sense for IS to get Clan Tech, but it'd also create a huge host of balance issues. Best solution=Keep Clan Tech away from IS Houses. Restrict it to a Clan Faction(s). Make unevenly sided IS vs Clan game modes.

if clan tech is overpowered and is only available to clans, nearly every player will switch to clans, wich will make the servers obsolete cause the game will be dead than.

[VanillaG]

FupDup, on 30 March 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Clan Lasers: Longer beam duration (i.e. CERLL would be 1.5s, compared to ISLL of 1.0s)

Actually for clan lasers you could increase the range, keep the damage the same but decrease the beam duration. With a lower duration it gives the feeling of more damage because the damage is more concentrated.

[FupDup]

VanillaG, on 30 March 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Actually for clan lasers you could increase the range, keep the damage the same but decrease the beam duration. With a lower duration it gives the feeling of more damage because the damage is more concentrated.

The issues with that:

1. Goodbye IS Lasers (assuming Mixtech)
2. HOW DARE THEE COMMIT THE HIGH HERSEY OF ASKING FOR A CLAN WEAPON TO NOT DO MORE DAMAGE! WE MUST CALL THE SPACE TT POPE IMMEDIATELY AND EXCOMMUNICATE THE APOSTATE!

Edited by FupDup, 30 March 2013 - 06:15 PM.

[Merky Merc]

FupDup, on 30 March 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

The issues with that:

1. Goodbye IS Lasers (assuming Mixtech)

I don't see how this is a problem. People are attached to their mech, not the laser in it.

[FupDup]

Merky Merc, on 30 March 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

I don't see how this is a problem. People are attached to their mech, not the laser in it.

Because items that exist for the sole purpose of being noobtraps don't have much of a place in an already tutorial-less game that doesn't exactly encourage nubcakes to stick around very long. Trial mechs are garbage enough as it is...just wait until everybody is boating CLRM20, CUAC/20, and CGR against them.


Not related to lasers: imagine a Craven loaded with a Clan XL engine and CSSRM6...

Edited by FupDup, 30 March 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[Merky Merc]

FupDup, on 30 March 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Because items that exist for the sole purpose of being noobtraps don't have much of a place in an already tutorial-less game that doesn't encourage nubcakes to stick around very long. Trial mechs are garbage enough as it is...just wait until everybody is boating CLRM20, CUAC/20, and CGR against them.

This is both a problem with the stock trial mechs, which seem to be going away in favor of custom trials, and the lack of an explanation for many of the weapons. But I agree that these problems would be exacerbated by new weapons in general. But ISMLs would still function well enough in lower brackets that as players figure out up from down that they should also slap in some shiny new CERMLs or what have you.

[FupDup]

Merky Merc, on 30 March 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

But ISMLs would still function well enough in lower brackets that as players figure out up from down that they should also slap in some shiny new CERMLs or what have you.

I actually see a fair amount of trial mechs running around in my games. I don't think I'm a member of the steering wheel underhive, because otherwise I wouldn't repeatedly drop with people like Mischief SC, M A L I C E, Harlequin HC, Frost Collar, and other forumites that I can't remember off the top of my head over multiple weeks.

Elo casts a pretty large net right now, meaning that steering wheel underhivers don't always get opponents of the same level. Also, Elo is per weight class. This means that somebody can grind up to a mountain of C-Bills for one class, fully min/max a mech of a new class, and then go absolutely apeshit with Clan tech on hapless newbies while their Elo is still in the process of increasing.



As for the ML, that's already balanced against the CERML already because of the CERML generating 2 more heat (that's TT values, MWO might be different when the invasion comes).

The real issue is the CERML versus the IS Large Laser. The CERML has identical range, less heat, only takes 1 crit, weighs 4 tons less...all for the hilarious downside of doing 1 less damage (in TT, but in MWO the LL does 1 more damage than TT).

Edited by FupDup, 30 March 2013 - 07:10 PM.

[Nutlink]

Without R&R, IS tech would be obsolete as soon as you let people use Clan tech on IS mechs (obviously). However, if R&R returned, it's entirely possible that that you could make Clan tech so expensive as to be almost undesirable. For example, right now we get roughly 120k a round, average. With R&R that would be upped, so lets say up to an average of 600k a round. If a single Clan Gauss Rifle cost $400k to replace, you'd constantly lose money if it was shot off.

The downside to that is that you allow experienced pilots to have an even larger advantage over less experienced pilots, and at that point you might as well include kill streaks.

Personally I vote to keep things puretech. I don't mind Houses using Clan mechs eventually either, but not for a while, and sure as hell not when the Clans first get introduced.