183 replies to this topic

[Skadi]

Caleb Lee, on 31 March 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

No... I'm saying that I am constantly paired with the following types of players as the other 4 on our teams:

1) Little to no damage, can't hit what they do shoot at.
2) Run in as singletons.
3) No cohesiveness when they are a team, i.e. Pugs
4) Tell you to F*** off if you give any directions whatsoever.
5) No patience or situational awareness.
6) STOCK mechs.
7) Run out of ammo with cheese builds like 6 AC2 Jaegermechs.

Yeah, it's been fun. Really... Wasn't this bad prior to ELO.

Did you just make fun of my 6 AC2's? ***** BRING IT ON

[deforce]

or..... everyone is getting better and you have reached your skill cap.

[Yokaiko]

deforce, on 01 April 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

or..... everyone is getting better and you have reached your skill cap.

.......yeah, no.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Caleb Lee, on 31 March 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

No... I'm saying that I am constantly paired with the following types of players as the other 4 on our teams:

1) Little to no damage, can't hit what they do shoot at.
2) Run in as singletons.
3) No cohesiveness when they are a team, i.e. Pugs
4) Tell you to F*** off if you give any directions whatsoever.
5) No patience or situational awareness.
6) STOCK mechs.
7) Run out of ammo with cheese builds like 6 AC2 Jaegermechs.

Yeah, it's been fun. Really... Wasn't this bad prior to ELO.

Do you announce that you have 4 and/or try to help keep them together?

Do you have proof of these claims?

[jay35]

Vermaxx, on 31 March 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

His team cannot be that good if it isn't doing any pub-wrangling and their stats are 'dropping like rocks.' His ELO was artificially inflated well past his skill by a never ending series of wins prior to even our baby-steps matching.

People are quick to whip out this rejoinder and claim it's the complaintant's fault and they're just "not as good as they thought they were", when in reality the matchmaker has to drag a couple high ELO players into much lower ELO matches all the time just to fill out the teams. We know this is happening because of the percentage of games we play where the matchmaker can't even fill out an 8v8 team and it's 8v7 or 8v6. That means not only did it try to match players in the same ELO bracket, it went beyond that bracket and still couldn't find enough players to fill out the match.

So before you accuse the person who is frustrated by ELO of just not being as good as you/they think, stop to consider that their complaint is quite likely legitimate and they are routinely being paired up with lower ELO teams. Because that is the reality of the matchmade games most of us have played lately, and that means you have likely experienced that as well even if you didn't realize it. You perhaps haven't actually considered what it means when the matchmaker can't even fill out a full 16 players. It means that given the frequency of incomplete teams, many of the rounds where you did have a full 16, some of those players were pulled from other ELO brackets. So that is apparently occuring fairly commonly. Thus his complaint rings more true than you might realize.

Edited by jay35, 01 April 2013 - 12:55 PM.

[deforce]

Yokaiko, on 01 April 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

.......yeah, no.

well ELO hasn't really affected my KDR or W/L.... sooo yeah....

and yes a team of 4 can carry 4 noobs/baddies who end games with less than 50 damage and no kills.

Edited by deforce, 01 April 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[Yokaiko]

deforce, on 01 April 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

well ELO hasn't really affected my KDR or W/L.... sooo yeah....

and yes a team of 4 can carry 4 noobs/baddies who end games with less than 50 damage and no kills.

Sometimes.

[NinetyProof]

jay35, on 01 April 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

So before you accuse the person who is frustrated by ELO of just not being as good as you/they think, stop to consider that their complaint is quite likely legitimate and they are routinely being paired up with lower ELO teams.

ELO is not a guarantee that you *will* be matched with players of your caliber.

People have to remember that the objective to MATCHMAKING is to actually create matches and get you into the game playing. How much more QQing would there be if you routinely got the "No Match Found" message 5, 10, 15 times in a row?

Also keep in mind that, at least from what I have seen, the people doing the most complaining are the ones that choose "assault" only for their game preference. That right there is going to put you *lower* on the totem when match making. Why? because everyone that choose "either" and it's their turn for conquest, can't be paired with you, or against you.

And of course, the better you are, the more likely you are to drop as a group. That also cuts down on who you can play with/against.

The bottom line is that ELO is at least trying ... versus? nothing? If there was *nothing* keeping track of skill level? any of you actually think that is better for the game? Seriously ... going back to *nothing* would cause a lot more weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Yokaiko]

NinetyProof, on 01 April 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

The bottom line is that ELO is at least trying ... versus? nothing? If there was *nothing* keeping track of skill level? any of you actually think that is better for the game? Seriously ... going back to *nothing* would cause a lot more weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Yes.

Pug games solo dropping were a lot better before ELO.

[jay35]

NinetyProof, on 01 April 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

You still don't get it ... if ELO is working right, your Win/Loss would be 1 ... and your K/D would be closer to 1 (depending upon the weight class your playing).

This brings up the biggest bugbear with ELO: Above average players no longer have the same level of success they are used to experiencing in FPS games where they are consistently among the best players in every match they play. That is their expectation and it is legitimate. If they are better than the average player in most FPS games when they play a pub match, then they should be near the top of the results. So when they are artificially forced to only play against people with a similar skill to theirs, it is actually much less fun for many of them.

I don't always want to face a fierce challenge every round in pub matches. When I play a pub game, I want to face a normal proportion of the total playerbase. Facing a completely random assortment of players on the enemy team means that on average a player who is above average should win more than half the time. If they are no longer winning more than half the time, it is quite plainly providing a less fun experience for them compared to what they are used to.

I generally play games to relax, not to be stressed out by fierce competition, particularly in a pub match. And guess what, that's my prerogative, because if I'm not entering a contest or a tournament, and I'm just here to relax and enjoy the game, then that's a reasonable expectation. If the game is instead delivering to me a frustrating or stressful experience in pub matches, I'm more likely to put it aside in favor of a game that provides me a more enjoyable experience. And that really doesn't create a negative experience for average players, as it would be equivalent to what they face in every other FPS game.


At the end of the day, outside of tournament and competitive play, there's no need for ELO type systems. Same thing as a casual game of chess with friends where it's entirely for fun, vs a tournament play where people track ELO type rankings.

Edited by jay35, 01 April 2013 - 01:19 PM.

[jay35]

NinetyProof, on 01 April 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

People have to remember that the objective to MATCHMAKING is to actually create matches and get you into the game playing. How much more QQing would there be if you routinely got the "No Match Found" message 5, 10, 15 times in a row?

Traditionally, FPS games don't use some ghetto matchmaker system, they have a proper server browser and lobby system. You aren't rolling the dice to get a match, you scan and filter a list to find a populated server with the settings you desire and you choose to join it. Simple, effective, worked fine for about 15 years of FPS games, until companies got cheap/control-paranoid and didn't want to allow dedicated servers, rented servers, etc, and decided instead to push peer-to-peer models and variants that evolved from that model like matchmaking systems.

Edited by jay35, 01 April 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[Scrawny Cowboy]

Aside from the obvious need of closer tonnage pair ups, would seperate Elo's for solo play and group play help?

[Caleb Lee]

Skadi, on 01 April 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Did you just make fun of my 6 AC2's? ***** BRING IT ON

Hey... just saying it runs incredibly hot, has low ammo and burns through it. You also have an XL. I've heard many times on Tourmaline from people with similar builds "I'm out of Ammo, off to cap"

I LIKE the Jaegermech, just wish it had another 5-10 tons then it'd be perfect.

[Soy]

The previous MM system and the current Elo MM system are the exact same result - crappy imbalanced matches.

There is no love for solo play really in the current state, which is of course mindless TDM with no meta whatsoever nor intricate strats.

The overall level of play is not high so the baseline is close to it, anyways.

Honestly this is a game for internal reflection at the moment rather than outward - there is not a lot of skill involved in actually playing the game, the playerbase is not very large nor particularly skilled [most 45 year old dads who played old BT not actual gamers], not a very complex or deeply intwined content system at the moment compared to the lore, etc.

I could go on and on but I'm sure you see the point I'm getting at, which is this game is not particularly difficult to play well nor is it full of technically proficient gamers with high knowledge and tactics.

It's mostly a derpout of groups pooping on one another at the moment given fluctuations in team composition, simple map knowledge, fundamental tactics, yada yada... with the occasional 'beast mode' moment where someone goes off on half a team and chest thumps.

I almost cared to post a similar thread about 5 times in the past week since I've returned but my apathy and weariness makes that hard so I try and temper my attitude by reading other peoples threads who feel similarly and reinforce the notion that this game will actually have meta that matters by the time CW releases.

I'm not saying the game is easy, I'm not saying the game is hard, but it could be beyond what it is right now without a doubt. I honestly believe part of that is due to the community, part due to the nature of the game and the intent of design and business model, but ultimately the games headed in the right direction.

Harsh post for April Fool's Day, I know, but cba to gaf.

Edited by Soy, 01 April 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[flying1ace]

Hmmm. Stil do not get the idea of this thread. I looked at my stats and I realized I have played for 7 hours in my new jagermech and i only have 4 kills. Is anyone else having the same problem or am I just a horrible pilot?

[Skadi]

Caleb Lee, on 01 April 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Hey... just saying it runs incredibly hot, has low ammo and burns through it. You also have an XL. I've heard many times on Tourmaline from people with similar builds "I'm out of Ammo, off to cap"

I LIKE the Jaegermech, just wish it had another 5-10 tons then it'd be perfect.

They don't use their ammo correctly then, most people just SPRAY the **** out of it, I focus fire on larg targets and make sure im hitting.

[Whompity]

Mine is still climbing (1.11) but very slowly. I attribute it to trying my hardest not to make idiotic mistakes as much, though they still happen. I pug 99% of the time.

[Artgathan]

From your description it would appear that Elo is working, as your W/L is decreasing. The matches you play will be lopsided as your W/L is far above 1. When your W/L ratio hits 1 you'll start playing more balanced matches.

That said, Elo is still a work in progress - something many people are quick to forget.

[jay35]

Artgathan, on 01 April 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

From your description it would appear that Elo is working, as your W/L is decreasing. The matches you play will be lopsided as your W/L is far above 1. When your W/L ratio hits 1 you'll start playing more balanced matches.

It's not that simple and never will be.

The number one factor in match quality and balanced matches is team communication and teamwork. And that cannot be accounted for by any ELO or matchmaking system. By and large, the team that works together, wins.

The second issue is that the matchmaker is clearly already struggling to put together complete 8v8 matches, often leaving the teams 8v7, sometimes 8v6. And since the devs described how the matchmaker works as starting close to your ELO and then getting further and further away from it as it tries to fill out matches, knowing that it couldn't even fill out a match despite scouring all ELO groups, you can be fairly certain that many of your matches that take a while to fill out to 8v8 are already pulling in from a wide variety of ELO ranks.

So it's doubtful that it's actually providing high quality matches filled with people at a similar skill level, or ever will. Not to mention, one person's definition of a high quality match, let alone a fun match, is not the same as another's.

Edited by jay35, 01 April 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[Caleb Lee]

Well, let me ask you this... what part of Elo is fair?

The way I see Elo is that it's a glass ceiling. Regardless of any players skill, the system will artificially force you to the same win/loss ratio as anyone else.

Instead of pitting you against players of equal skill, it artificially swings things around drastically to try and get you to a 50/50.

So instead of great matches, it usually ends up over the top 8-1 or something with the odd close match here and there. It also doesn't factor in tonnage/class/battlevalue and if you don't play a very heavy damage dealer there's a good chance you just greatly increased the odds against you even further and the enemy will have an assault or something as your counterpart.

What ends up happening is instead of losing 50% of the time to great matches and well fought opponents, you end up losing because of complete stupidity or something along those lines. Instead of saying, man, I sucked that round (and it happens) then look to how to improve and learn from it, you also have a feeling of complete helplessness as you can't affect the random people that get assigned with you.