114 replies to this topic

[focuspark]

When discussing Streak Short Range Missiles [SSRM], it seems that all balance questions / arguments come down to the lock on mechanic used. It gives an incidental bonus to mechs capable of equipping ECM and causes the "impossible" attack angles seen with the current version of SSRM (because the can't miss and lock on can be held at any angle).

Therefore, SSRM should drop the lock on mechanic. Instead, when the trigger is pulled SSRM should emit a 270m long targeting beam for up to 2.0 seconds. If the beam can be kept on target for 0.5 seconds continually, or 1.0 seconds cumulatively the missiles fire and work as they do now. If not, the missiles do not fire, ammo is not consumed, heat is not wasted.

It's a simple, easy to understand model. Launchers is separate body locations would lock on independently and rely on convergence like nearly every other weapon system, giving reasons to place SSRM in arms. Pilots could not lock on before being in range or preserve their lock on between launches. Finally, because SSRM would behave like lasers when attempting to lock on, they would require skill and missiles would launch directly at the target and not require fancy trajectory manipulation to make them strike their targets.

Of course, using this new model ECM should no longer affect SSRM there by removing the special case benefit ECM enabled light mechs have over non-ECM enabled versions.

Finally - assuming this change was made, damage and heat values would need to be looked at for additional balancing; but that should go without saying for all weapon systems all the time.

[Chuckie]

They are not impossible angles. The ones saying that are fighting Commandos that have arms (Where our SSRMs are mounted) and a larger torso twist. So the effect can sometimes look wrong.. combined with lag... its a visual graphics thing..

Run the SSRMs in mechs like Atlas', Awesomes, etc.. they have a limited firing arc from the torso. So they are no where near as effective.

With the new profile info its easy to see if you pilot different mechs. Some mechs are built with the SSRM in mind and some are not. The Commando is effective with SSRMs like the Catapult is with LRM20s

[Mypa333]

Chuckie, on 01 April 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

They are not impossible angles. The ones saying that are fighting Commandos that have arms (Where our SSRMs are mounted) and a larger torso twist. So the effect can sometimes look wrong.. combined with lag... its a visual graphics thing..

Run the SSRMs in mechs like Atlas', Awesomes, etc.. they have a limited firing arc from the torso. So they are no where near as effective.

With the new profile info its easy to see if you pilot different mechs. Some mechs are built with the SSRM in mind and some are not. The Commando is effective with SSRMs like the Catapult is with LRM20s

Did you meet a SSRM Catapult ? Because I met LRM lights, staying away from battle and getting good hits.

[Voivode]

SSRMs are wonky and need some disadvantage similar to the UAC5 jamming. Some risk you take in bringing them to the fight that can act as an offset to the reward of having autohit weapons you don't have to aim.

[HarmAssassin]

How to "fix" streaks:

1. Have them hit randomly (all but head).
2. Don't allow streaks on mechs that equip an ECM.

[Team Leader]

Yes, far better than what we have.

[Mad Porthos]

What about Streak Lrms? You do know the technology is eventually adapted to LRMs as well, yes? Streak Lrms fire direct only, losing the options for indirect fire, but when fired directly do the same "guarantee of hits". May prove troublesome.

What of Swarm Missiles as well? These adaptations are all things people would prefer cause they think it would show more "skill", ie. be harder to do so thus a worthwhile "hoop" for you to jump thorugh, in turn for being effective... but forget that the streak mechanic applies to other things which eventually would be coming along in the BT universe. Beams of light that you keep on target for two seconds? Hows that going to be different than tag when people are using Streak LRMs? We'll have to see... but don't just give in and tweak it.

More than anything else, I'd think that streaks SHOULD lose lock once they fire. You are acquiring a lock for the missiles you have in the tube NOW. Once they fire, you should have to aquire a new lock for the next batch. That might be appropriate, since it would mean the target decay module and possibly the 360 lock module would no longer give the exceptional boost they do to streaks. Yes, you could still SEE the targets behind you... on radar, as it's meant to be... but breaking lock on fire means that the target decay module shouldn't allow the maintenance of a constant lock the way it's doing now - even on targets you aquired two minutes ago and have been running from ever since, facing completely away from.

This means that yes, if you have a lock from say, torso twisting and having streaks on an arm, yes you can still probably hitan opponent, even right behind you... but the target must then be REACQUIRED, by fully turning and putting the effort into keeping him in your reticle... even if it's just from that same torso twist and moving the "arm" reticle over to aim on the enemy.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 01 April 2013 - 04:27 PM.

[focuspark]

bump for EU time zones

[Cyke]

I'm assuming we independently came to similar conclusions..

http://mwomercs.com/...39#entry2162139

Cyke, on 01 April 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

Here's something I posted a while ago..
Maybe Streaks shouldn't have a "hold, achieve confirmed lock-on, fire" mechanic, but instead should have a bit of a "risk" involved.

- You must point at an enemy 'Mech with your torso/arm crosshair, and click fire
- If you're on-target, the Streaks immediately fire with full tracking, almost a sure hit
- If you're off-target, the Streaks do not fire (thus no ammo consumed or heat generated), but need to go through their full 3.5 second cooldown cycle.


Unlike current lock-on, you can't "pre-guarantee" a hit before firing. There's also a big risk of "wasting" a cooldown cycle, thus adding the risk of a "miss" (though the miss uses up no ammo).
Also, you may notice that in this idea, the skill used is basically about the same as firing a laser. Sure, you don't need to continue tracking the target for 1.0 seconds like a laser, but on the other hand, you can't target a specific body location (each individual missile should randomly track and hit different body parts on the enemy).

The TT "hit" or "miss" roll result is translated into the realtime MWO skill of "crosshair on target" or "crosshair not on target" at the moment the player presses the fire button.
This is completely consistent with the (well-accepted) manner in which a TT hit or miss for a laser is translated into realtime MWO.

There is the additional benefit of future-proofing Streak SRM design for the coming of the Clans.. since larger Streak missle packs (4 and 6) can be balanced with a longer recycle time (as is already common practice in current weapon design), this also effectively increases the time cost of a "miss".

Whatever the case, I agree completely.

Your additional idea of requiring the firer to hold the trigger on the target for a certain period of time (about 0.25 to 0.5 seconds) would add additional difficulty, and make it even more similar to the player action required to effectively use lasers. I think this is good.
Furthermore, the hold-on-target duration will add a further variable that can be tweaked for balancing (as a purely hypothetical example, future SSRM6s could require 0.6 seconds hold-on-target, while SSRM2s only require 0.2 seconds).

The TT is really responsible for the core of the idea.. that a "miss" is possible with Streaks, but the miss causes the Streak launcher to refrain from firing entirely... but still require a reset time period (of one recycle duration) before re-attempting target acquisition.

It's rare that an idea will accomplish both pleasing the TT crowd and (in my opinion) greatly benefiting gameplay.. and I do believe this is one of those ideas.

Edited by Cyke, 01 April 2013 - 11:27 PM.

[FiveDigits]

This is a great idea. You have my full support.

[Khobai]

Don't like this idea. Streaks are not some primitive laser-guided missiles. They are magnitudes beyond that.

Streaks are mostly fine how they are. They just need a chance to miss. They shouldnt orbit around targets ridiculously until they either hit or run out of fuel.

Edited by Khobai, 02 April 2013 - 12:33 AM.

[FiveDigits]

Khobai, on 02 April 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

This is a terrible idea. This is not at all how streaks are supposed to work. Streaks arnt laser guided missiles lol.

How are they supposed to work then? SRMs aren't dumb fire missiles in TT either, yet they are in MW:O.

Quote

... a special feature of this system [is] preventing the weapon from firing at a target when there is no lock-on, saving ammunition by preventing shots that would miss anyway.

[source: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM]

This is what separates Streaks from plain SRMs in TT. The suggestion keeps that distinction. It also removes all of the issues SSRMs in their current implementation are causing.

Edited by FiveDigits, 02 April 2013 - 12:29 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

How are they supposed to work then? SRMs aren't dumb fire missiles in TT either, yet they are in MW:O.

SRMs shouldnt be dumbfire either. They should be lock-on weapons.

The only difference between SRMs and Streaks is Streaks dont roll on the cluster table and streaks dont waste ammo or hea when they miss.

[FiveDigits]

Well then, we could have guided SRMs instead. Their tracking capability (maneuverability) should be significantly worse than current SSRMs.
How do you implement Streaks then? Magick the missiles back into their tubes when they hit a building or the ground instead of the targeted 'mech?

[blinkin]

FiveDigits, on 02 April 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Magick the missiles back into their tubes when they hit a building or the ground instead of the targeted 'mech?

that could be done, but it would be hard to make it look anything like realistic.

[Cyke]

FiveDigits, on 02 April 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Well then, we could have guided SRMs instead. Their tracking capability (maneuverability) should be significantly worse than current SSRMs.
How do you implement Streaks then? Magick the missiles back into their tubes when they hit a building or the ground instead of the targeted 'mech?

Well, my suggestion actually takes care of that.

Your hit or miss result occurs when you pull the trigger. If your crosshair is on target, they fire with their deadly tracking. If your crosshair is off target, it's a "miss" on the tracking attempt; the launcher goes into its 3.5 second recycle, but the missiles aren't fired.

[blinkin]

Cyke, on 02 April 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

Well, my suggestion actually takes care of that.

Your hit or miss result occurs when you pull the trigger. If your crosshair is on target, they fire with their deadly tracking. If your crosshair is off target, it's a "miss" on the tracking attempt; the launcher goes into its 3.5 second recycle, but the missiles aren't fired.

not exactly what i want, but i could live with this.

[FiveDigits]

blinkin, on 02 April 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

that could be done, but it would be hard to make it look anything like realistic.

Cyke, on 02 April 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

Well, my suggestion actually takes care of that. [...]

Sorry if my post was misleading. It was a response to Khobai's retorts to the OP.
I fully support the OP's suggestion.

Edit: I see Khobai edited his initial post. So the flow of the conversation isn't really obvious any more.

Edited by FiveDigits, 02 April 2013 - 03:58 AM.

[focuspark]

Khobai, on 02 April 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

Don't like this idea. Streaks are not some primitive laser-guided missiles. They are magnitudes beyond that.

Streaks are mostly fine how they are. They just need a chance to miss. They shouldnt orbit around targets ridiculously until they either hit or run out of fuel.

My suggestion doesn't make them laser guided, but lock acquisition from a specialized laser beam emitted just before launch. One launched, they track the mech itself - not the laser beam.

Cyke, on 02 April 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

Well, my suggestion actually takes care of that.

Your hit or miss result occurs when you pull the trigger. If your crosshair is on target, they fire with their deadly tracking. If your crosshair is off target, it's a "miss" on the tracking attempt; the launcher goes into its 3.5 second recycle, but the missiles aren't fired.

This is good (it's called ray-cast targeting) the problem is that it is just too easy to spam the fire button and hope for a hit. Same issues we have now, just a slightly different mechanic.

[Khobai]

Quote

My suggestion doesn't make them laser guided, but lock acquisition from a specialized laser beam emitted just before launch. One launched, they track the mech itself - not the laser beam.

So basically... laser guided. If you have to hold a laser on the target for X duration to hit it, thats laser guidance.