114 replies to this topic

[focuspark]

Death Storm, on 11 April 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

I am sorry guys but I disagree with this Vote

I mean no disrespect to anyone only to voice my concerns

Some of you guys are talking about adding a timer targeting system to streaks, you got to remember light mechs these days have ECM that completely through s the idea using LRM these days out the window, these day you will not see lot people using LRMs because of the EMC issue. You are now talking about adding timer and altering the turn accuracy of streaks, Remember Assault mechs are not as fast at turning as light Mech i.e an Atlas for example, this would leave an Atlas vulnerable to Light Mechs as assult classes and heavy classes are not as fast at turning meaning a 3 or 5 second timer a nightmare for lock on. The idea of the thread is about balancing weapon and not making life far more easier for light mechs.

This EMC is over powering and leaves LRM relativity use less in combat at same time it defeating the purpose of using your brain and tactics to out smart the enemy, (THE FEAR OF LRMS IS GONE) and I feel game is now unbalanced, and what you guys are suggesting makes the other classes of mechs Vulnerable to light mech attacks.

Remember Light Mechs Role is to Scout the area ahead watch for enemy movement to report back to team mate use hit and run tactics not overpower assault Mech and pretty much beat it. Remember guys there needs to be balance in the game, idea is to get you work more efficiently think about unseen event and learn how to over come them and out think your enemy using tactics.

First, this proposal includes removing ECM blocking SSRM lock on.

Second, I believe ECM should have no impact on LRM if the launcher has LOS to the target.

Third, SRM and LB-X are very viable anti-light weapons.

Fourth, lasers are still the best anti-light weapon in the game.

Edited by focuspark, 11 April 2013 - 07:40 PM.

[Grey Death Storm]

focuspark, on 11 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

First, this proposal includes removing ECM blocking SSRM lock on.

Second, I believe ECM should have no impact on LRM if the launcher has LOS to the target.

Third, SRM and LB-X are very viable anti-light weapons.

Fourth, lasers are still the best anti-light weapon in the game.

Hi

First off whats LOS ? are you referring to Tag or the laser sighted targeting system, that still no good if you have to get a laser/Tag sight lock on a mech, Try doing that with light mechs again they are fast making it difficult to maintain a lock also LRMS do not work at short range distances, so if you are talking about trying laser sight a mech in line off sight or hiding behind a building it not a really good plan because one LRMs are not good at short distances and you cant TAG a mech hiding behind a building.

Yes you are correct about laser i.e large lasers being a anti light tactics however that still dosen't mean Streaks need to change.

So Tag and Laser are not best Solution to encounter EMC also remember what said in top paragraph and making excuses for using other weapons as an anti terr-ant is still not a viable reason for changing streak And ECM still remains over powered.

Again I mean no disrespect but I am pointing out some hard facts that need to be thought about.

[blinkin]

Death Storm, on 13 April 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Hi

First off whats LOS ? are you referring to Tag or the laser sighted targeting system, that still no good if you have to get a laser/Tag sight lock on a mech, Try doing that with light mechs again they are fast making it difficult to maintain a lock also LRMS do not work at short range distances, so if you are talking about trying laser sight a mech in line off sight or hiding behind a building it not a really good plan because one LRMs are not good at short distances and you cant TAG a mech hiding behind a building.

Yes you are correct about laser i.e large lasers being a anti light tactics however that still dosen't mean Streaks need to change.

So Tag and Laser are not best Solution to encounter EMC also remember what said in top paragraph and making excuses for using other weapons as an anti terr-ant is still not a viable reason for changing streak And ECM still remains over powered.

Again I mean no disrespect but I am pointing out some hard facts that need to be thought about.

i think the language gap is killing the debate.

if i understand what you are saying (heavy emphasis on the "if"), i am pretty sure he has already responded to all of those issues directly.

i will try to answer some of this though.

there are many places on any of the maps where a mech can have line of sight and be at long range or even out of range for any of the weapon systems. besides i think the LOS for LRM is a side note that he added in for something he would like to see that is only mildly related to the main topic.

as far as your streaks comment, something needs to change. either streaks are severely OP or everything else is thoroughly underpowered. my view is that streaks need to be reworked so that they require at least some basic skills and effort to operate.

and i am having trouble making any sense out of your tag statement. it is largely unrelated to anything mentioned here. it is used as an example to demonstrate how this streak system would work, but TAG itself is largely inconsequential to this debate.

[Grey Death Storm]

blinkin, on 13 April 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

i think the language gap is killing the debate.

if i understand what you are saying (heavy emphasis on the "if"), i am pretty sure he has already responded to all of those issues directly.

i will try to answer some of this though.

there are many places on any of the maps where a mech can have line of sight and be at long range or even out of range for any of the weapon systems. besides i think the LOS for LRM is a side note that he added in for something he would like to see that is only mildly related to the main topic.

as far as your streaks comment, something needs to change. either streaks are severely OP or everything else is thoroughly underpowered. my view is that streaks need to be reworked so that they require at least some basic skills and effort to operate.

and i am having trouble making any sense out of your tag statement. it is largely unrelated to anything mentioned here. it is used as an example to demonstrate how this streak system would work, but TAG itself is largely inconsequential to this debate.

Please note I did state in the top paragraph i did add - (whats LOS ? are you referring to Tag or the laser sighted targeting system) you are correct in your assumptions its not in the debate, this is not a miss understanding, The top paragraph talks more on the disadvantages of these devices and on fact at short range LRMS do not work.

To answer question I thought focuspark was referring to LOS as a Tag anti EMC counter measures or the Laser sighted target locking system , Tag weapon works in sense of you fire a homing device projectile at the enemy that allows Missile lock to be acquired.

What do you mean by this Statement ( either streaks are severely OP or everything else is thoroughly underpowered) I am trying to get an understanding what you mean. ?

Answer your comment - (my view is that streaks need to be reworked so that they require at least some basic skills and effort to operate.) There is No skill to operate an EMC is there !.

Every time people want to change some weapon type they use the excuse that there is no skill in using that weapon so we need to change it to make it harder to use.

Edited by Death Storm, 13 April 2013 - 03:56 AM.

[MasterBLB]

Streaks only need their damage be calculated properly,but the devs are working on that.All other is fine.
Now,think guys a bit about particular streak aspects:
1.Impossible angles
Yes,that's a fact they can turn insanely tight.But just try to figure out what'd be if they couldn't - heavy mechs could not use streaks against close light mechs due to flight trajectory,while light ones would have no problems with proper aiming.So as a consequence there would be more disproportion beetwen lights and other mechs.
2.Lock on and hitting
For everyone thinking obtaining and keeping lock is requires absolutely no skill I advise to equip streaks in a light mech then go into a dogfight against another light.You'll see how 'easy' is really is,especially on hilly terrain.
Now add to that a new module "Instant track signal lost" in near future,the fact streaks are dump and you have to be careful during firing not to hit a terrain or friendly mech and you'll see streaks are just fine as they are.Only freeborns like focuspark keep whinning about them.

[focuspark]

@Death Storm wrt to the LRM discussion (and pretty much any discussion) LOS means Line Of Sight. It means you see the target without obstruction. What I'm say wrt to LRM is that it is my opinion that if you can see the target, ECM should not prevent missiles from being against the target and ECM should only protect against indirect fire (aka attacking without LOS).

The reason I bring this up is because my proposal would remove ECM's influence on Stream SRM and I believe to keep balance, the ECM impact on direct LRM fire with LOS needs to be changed. Blinkin has covered the rest.

[General Taskeen]

MasterBLB, on 13 April 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Streaks only need their damage be calculated properly,but the devs are working on that.All other is fine.
Now,think guys a bit about particular streak aspects:

They already tried that and failed. MW3/4/LL all have superior lock-on missile systems that are better balanced. In the case of SSRMs, they actually require skill to aim and shoot in those games. That is the fundamental change that needs to occur in a skill-based game that MWO tries to be.

Edited by General Taskeen, 13 April 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[shabowie]

Just make them require a new lock for every volley. Then tweak the lock time and basket area the reticle is required to be inside for the lock until you start seeing very similar damage over times rates between 2 SSRM2s and a single SRM 6 which are equal to each other in table top in performance and weight (except ammo not consumed and heat not produced on a miss by SSRMs).

Edited by shabowie, 13 April 2013 - 02:26 PM.

[Moomtazz]

Just take them off of lights. Its that simple. I have no problem hitting another light with my lasers when I am playing my spider.

The problem with having them is that it takes awhile to take down an enemy light using my lasers, and if they have streaks their TTK is much faster than mine. Plus they have lasers to go along with the missiles.

Leave them alone for other chassis. They are a definite help for the slower turning mechs against lights.

Edited by Moomtazz, 13 April 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[hercules1981]

I'm just gonna say 3 damage people not a big deal, leave them the way they r even if they buff the LRMS and Srms keep steaks at 1.5 this game needs a fire and forget weapon and no I don't have any ravens or lights at all for that matter but I do like to hit those pain in the*** lights that **** me off when I'm trying to get in position to deal with the big boys.

[Moomtazz]

hercules1981, on 13 April 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

I'm just gonna say 3 damage people not a big deal, leave them the way they r even if they buff the LRMS and Srms keep steaks at 1.5 this game needs a fire and forget weapon and no I don't have any ravens or lights at all for that matter but I do like to hit those pain in the*** lights that **** me off when I'm trying to get in position to deal with the big boys.

Streaks are fine for any mechs but Lights.

[focuspark]

Moomtazz, on 13 April 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Streaks are fine for any mechs but Lights.

In the absence of ECM, even Assault mechs can get cheezed to death by pop-tarting with Streaks. They require no skill to use and seek the CT regardless of the launch angle. IMO: they need to fixed.

[Macheiron]

Actually, SSRMs don't target CT like that anymore. Yes, they focus on the torso as a whole, but i've seen 2 missiles from the same launcher hit opposite ends of a mech on a regular basis. Streaks need a separate lock mechanic from LRMs, and they must require a new lock for every volley. It might be as simple as disallowing streaks to lock while a (the) launcher is on cooldown.

[zorak ramone]

Moomtazz, on 13 April 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Streaks are fine for any mechs but Lights.

Even if this was true, there's no way anyone would think it was true once SSRM4s and 6s are introduced. Imagine 3xSSRM6 on a DDC that can counter your ECM. Even in their current nerfed state, that would be too much. The SSRM mechanics need to be fixed.

[Nihtgenga]

MasterBLB, on 13 April 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Streaks only need their damage be calculated properly,but the devs are working on that.All other is fine.
Now,think guys a bit about particular streak aspects:
1.Impossible angles
Yes,that's a fact they can turn insanely tight.But just try to figure out what'd be if they couldn't - heavy mechs could not use streaks against close light mechs due to flight trajectory,while light ones would have no problems with proper aiming.So as a consequence there would be more disproportion beetwen lights and other mechs.

Streaks are not meant to be weapons that can defy physics! The original description does not say that they can hit anything every time and regardless the circumstances, like they are implemented now.

The mechanic needs to be changed so that there is no missile fired, when it can not hit with reasonable physics.

[focuspark]

Nihtgenga, on 17 April 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Streaks are not meant to be weapons that can defy physics! The original description does not say that they can hit anything every time and regardless the circumstances, like they are implemented now.

The mechanic needs to be changed so that there is no missile fired, when it can not hit with reasonable physics.

Then please vote 'Yes' on the poll at the top of the thread

[blinkin]

MasterBLB, on 13 April 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Streaks only need their damage be calculated properly,but the devs are working on that.All other is fine.
Now,think guys a bit about particular streak aspects:
1.Impossible angles
Yes,that's a fact they can turn insanely tight.But just try to figure out what'd be if they couldn't - heavy mechs could not use streaks against close light mechs due to flight trajectory,while light ones would have no problems with proper aiming.So as a consequence there would be more disproportion beetwen lights and other mechs.
2.Lock on and hitting
For everyone thinking obtaining and keeping lock is requires absolutely no skill I advise to equip streaks in a light mech then go into a dogfight against another light.You'll see how 'easy' is really is,especially on hilly terrain.
Now add to that a new module "Instant track signal lost" in near future,the fact streaks are dump and you have to be careful during firing not to hit a terrain or friendly mech and you'll see streaks are just fine as they are.Only freeborns like focuspark keep whinning about them.

i guess wanting mechs to aim occasionally makes me a freeborn too.

due to the screwed up hit tracking for lasers most players have 80% or better accuracy with lasers. now what does this tell us? THAT IT IS INCREDIBLY F---ING EASY TO SWEEP THE RETICLE ACROSS A TARGET WITHIN THE SPAN OF A SECOND OR AS LOW AS 0.50 SECONDS. i am sorry that you are so inept that you can't manage to sweep the crosshairs accross the target ONCE every TWO SECONDS, but compared to EVERY OTHER WEAPON IN THE GAME streaks require almost no effort.

[zorak ramone]

MasterBLB, on 13 April 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Only freeborns like focuspark keep whinning about them.

Sorry I missed this, but did you seriously just try to insult someone by calling them a freeborn? Please tell us this was an attempt at a joke or something.

EDIT: actually, please, please tell us it wasn't.

Edited by zorak ramone, 18 April 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[Nihtgenga]

As SRMs are not dumbfire like implemented now in MWO, I would propose to give SRMs a similar mechanic as the LRMs have, with the difference of Streak SRMs not firing despite having a lock, unless a hit probability (to be defined) high enough is reached, which could be indicated visually by the locking reticle (flashing, colour change,...).

Yes, this will promote mashing the fire button, yes it is not canon as the Streaks still have a small chance to not hit the target, but
- it is very close to the description of Streak SRMs
- it is less intrusive into game mechanics than other solutions, thus quicker and easier to implement
- can be buffed fine-grained (if necessary) by giving Streaks slightly better values in target locking, turning radius, obstacle circumvention or deviation pattern to regular SRMs, or nerfed (e.g. by increasing needed probability value for firing)
- does not only help with Streak balance, it also brings SRMs closer to their MW-Universe description than the current dumbfire rockets, that even have a spread wide like a pornstars' legs on merely 270m...

[Nihtgenga]

On a second thought: Thinking about how a Multi-SSRM6 clan build would wipe the floor with any IS enemy in range, if the current SSRM concept is not changed, I do really not think, that the SSRM-logic would be considerable as "working as intended".