1089 replies to this topic

[Twisted Power]

I am lost, I have been scourging these forums looking for the post for the changes to BAP. Anybody have the link?

[hammerreborn]

Twisted Power, on 03 May 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

I am lost, I have been scourging these forums looking for the post for the changes to BAP. Anybody have the link?

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2315318

[DocBach]

hammerreborn, on 03 May 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Other than all of the other benefits BAP gives you, you are completely correct, 1.5 tons of useless tonnage.

waiting for PGI to release the Beagle metrics - I wonder how much of the player base use Beagle compared to ECM?

Do you think more people will be using Beagle strictly to counter ECM, or for the additional sensor range and ability to target shut down 'Mechs? The only builds that will be useful for is Streak boats, LRM boats are still shafted by ECM until they either add TAG as a seperate equipment type that doesn't require energy hardpoints, or they loosen ECM's death block against missiles.

[Wintersdark]

I get that people will disagree with me here... But even as it stands (pre-ecm counter) Beagle isn't bad. Some of its effects are replicated by modules (and I'm uncertain of which stack) but those effects can be quite worthwhile.

Target information gathering speed, for example, can make the difference between just damaging an essentially random section and shearing off an already damaged component.

Being able to target shutdown Mechs is quite useful too, particularly if you're running lock on weaponry. It's rather annoying to lose your lock because a silly ppc stalker overheated.

Is it worth the size and tonnage? That depends. If you're already armored and good for heat (or only have two slots free and couldn't fit another sink regardless) it can be quite a useful tool.

[Wintersdark]

Adding ECM blocking takes it from a situational and generally underpowered (but definitely not useless) price of equipment to being a good piece of kit.

Of course, when the change comes in, a LOT of people will equip it, rendering ECM virtually ineffective. Everyone will stop running ECM, then gradually all those mechs with BAP will start dropping it in favor of other uses of the space/tonnage because they don't need it to pierce nonexistent ECM.... Then ECM will start appearing again.

The above process is why balance changes happen very slowly here, by the way. Things need time to reach an equilibrium.

[Twisted Power]

Thanks for the link. I will have to test all this when it comes out. Though I wish the "fixes" for ECM were actually to ECM. This does not make ECM ineffective at all, if you within 150 M of an ECM mech like say a DDC then you are within 400 M from 6 of his teammates are about to die. But, again I will at least attempt it. Otherwise just gunna stick with my 6 PPC stalker.

Edited by Twisted Power, 03 May 2013 - 01:23 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

The issue with the BAP is that not only can you acquire targets faster, so too can the enemy target you quicker. If that is not a feature of PGI's BAP, then it's wrong from the get-go

[hammerreborn]

Wintersdark, on 03 May 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Adding ECM blocking takes it from a situational and generally underpowered (but definitely not useless) price of equipment to being a good piece of kit.

Of course, when the change comes in, a LOT of people will equip it, rendering ECM virtually ineffective. Everyone will stop running ECM, then gradually all those mechs with BAP will start dropping it in favor of other uses of the space/tonnage because they don't need it to pierce nonexistent ECM.... Then ECM will start appearing again.

The above process is why balance changes happen very slowly here, by the way. Things need time to reach an equilibrium.

ECM > BAP from anywhere greater than 150m (number still being adjusted). BAP > ECM within 150m. So if tons of people carry BAP it only hurts non-ECM lights because they'll be detected even easier than they currently are.

Edited by hammerreborn, 03 May 2013 - 09:56 PM.

[zztophat]

I like the change to BAP and ECM, lock reliant mechs can now use A tag for greater ranges and BAP at close ranges to use their weapons against ECM mechs. It's not very convenient but it does prevent those mechs from being hard-countered while at the same time still allowing ECM to have a use.

[Sudden Reversal]

Wintersdark, on 03 May 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Being able to target shutdown Mechs is quite useful too, particularly if you're running lock on weaponry. It's rather annoying to lose your lock because a silly ppc stalker overheated.

You can only target an unpowered mech within 120m. Not really useful for LRM's.

Once again it is the SSRM that is the winner here with the BAP changes.

I ran a BAP on half my mechs before these changes, now it's omission will be the exception.

[ExAstris]

hammerreborn, on 03 May 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2315318

This is the first time I've logged in to post in over a month.
I haven't played in over two months.
This change is overdue by five.

Its still unfortunate we weren't heard earlier (and were treated so dismissively on this issue), but this will go a long way towards smoothing out the aweful wrinkles ECM put into the game.

And I will happily be rejoining you all on the field on the 21st.





I would like to thank SimCity, Dragon Age II, Battlefield 3, Civilization V, Mass Effect 3, Guild Wars 2, and Defense Grid: Awakening for their support during these dark times.

[Gamgee]

ExAstris, on 05 May 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

This is the first time I've logged in to post in over a month.
I haven't played in over two months.
This change is overdue by five.

Its still unfortunate we weren't heard earlier (and were treated so dismissively on this issue), but this will go a long way towards smoothing out the aweful wrinkles ECM put into the game.

And I will happily be rejoining you all on the field on the 21st.





I would like to thank SimCity, Dragon Age II, Battlefield 3, Civilization V, Mass Effect 3, Guild Wars 2, and Defense Grid: Awakening for their support during these dark times.

ExAstris, on 05 May 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

This is the first time I've logged in to post in over a month.
I haven't played in over two months.
This change is overdue by five.

Its still unfortunate we weren't heard earlier (and were treated so dismissively on this issue), but this will go a long way towards smoothing out the aweful wrinkles ECM put into the game.

And I will happily be rejoining you all on the field on the 21st.





I would like to thank SimCity, Dragon Age II, Battlefield 3, Civilization V, Mass Effect 3, Guild Wars 2, and Defense Grid: Awakening for their support during these dark times.

I didn't play in a month either, now that I know these balance changes (machine gun buff finally!!) are coming I am coming back.

[Sturmforge]

Se essentially to defeat ECM now all LRM users will need TAG and all SSRM users will need BAP. Think they need to do something about TAG so an LRM user does not need to sacrifice defensive weaponry and use up a slot to mount it.

[Twisted Power]

I still don't think BAP will stop large groups of mechs from stealthing half way across the map. Thus.... fail. You can still not use LRMS at 800m but u can use any non-missile weapon at 800M out. Won't fix the problem of LRMS and ECM.

[Mynder]

It depends. If a scout with BAP can move close to the enemy and cancel out their ECM for the LRM boats (and fire up a UAV for longer-lasting ECM piercing)...that scout just has to find a way to survive at range < 150m, which will be even harder now.

My original suggestion was to make NARC cancel out the ECM shield for the target that was hit, i.e. LRM mechs can lock on to the NARC-ed enemy mech, through its ECM cover (possibly with longer lock-on times).

NARC would have to have a longer duration to justify the weight, though.

[Sturmforge]

Mynder, on 06 May 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

It depends. If a scout with BAP can move close to the enemy and cancel out their ECM for the LRM boats (and fire up a UAV for longer-lasting ECM piercing)...that scout just has to find a way to survive at range < 150m, which will be even harder now.

My original suggestion was to make NARC cancel out the ECM shield for the target that was hit, i.e. LRM mechs can lock on to the NARC-ed enemy mech, through its ECM cover (possibly with longer lock-on times).

NARC would have to have a longer duration to justify the weight, though.

Actually once the brawlers and harassers close, if any of them are carrying BAP it should open up the bubble for LRM fire. I will be trying to squeeze it in my Centurion as not only does it have 2 SSRM, but I will take all the supporting fire I can get.

[Twisted Power]

Well the problem is that warfare right now is lots of long range weapons firing out from an ECM bubble 800 M out.

The Bap change does almost nothing for LRM players. Your brawlers normally do not get close without dying on the way. If you get a scout over there then you have 1-2 scouts in a group of 5-8 heavy and aslt mechs and then they die.

This BAP change is really just for streaks. Now you can put streaks on your mech with BAP and except for the 30 M range where ECM is bigger than BAP you can fire streaks. Like your light mech can now fire streaks at things like raven 3Ls.

[Burning Chrome]

So nothing really new...same bizarre approach to "balance" by continuing to make weapons/equipment do things it never did in function in ways outside of Battletech lore.

I find it puzzling why the obvious and simplest solution (IMO) of "rolling-back" ECM to TT rules isn't considered. Instead, PPCs, TAG and now BAP are changed to do things outside of their normal function which creates additional problems.

Seems pretty obvious the BAP changes will make piloting any light without ECM even more pointless. Sure, those variant must be driven to unlock upgrade tiers...sounds like "fun".

TAG is still ridiculous. Increased range and guiding LRMS to target in 3049...right. Arrow IV is the only thing that could take advantage of TAG at this point. Semi-guided LRMs (which is what we apparently have now) aren't introduced until late 3050s IIRC.

This game probably would have been better off set in 3039 or mid 3040s with limited access to L2 tech that could be earned/unlocked for each chassis similar to the performance tweaks now.

There are a few changes coming that seem to be in the right direction, but as it is, MWO still appears not to be worth the time or disk-space unfortunately.

[Twisted Power]

Thontor, on 07 May 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

The BAP change is huge for LRM users. No longer will LRMs be able to be turned into dead weight simply because some ECM light mech decided to make you their *****.

I for one know that I will never take an LRM mech without BAP, because nearby ECM completely preventing me from getting a lock was one of the most frustrating and annoying things about ECM.

All my LRM mechs have BAP already. I do not have problems with ECM mechs blocking my missiles from locking because they signal jam me in their 180m bubble. I have problem with ECM mechs blocking my locks because there is an ECM mech behind a rock far away stopping me from locking onto mechs standing still in the open at 800M. You will still not be able to fire LRMS at targets at long range. The whole point of a LRM if you didn't know is LONG RANGE missile. Hence LRM.

Edited by Twisted Power, 07 May 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[Twisted Power]

Thontor, on 07 May 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

I don't have a problem with mechs 800m away because it only takes a second to move 50m to 750m and get a lock with TAG

Then several mechs alpha you because you are now in the open and you get hit in the face by 11 PPC's and 3 gausses and die!