1089 replies to this topic

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 08 May 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

Umm.. the way they used to do it..

Terrain.

Then what does ECM do? Make terrain pop up. Way to not respond to the situation or question.

Twisted Power, on 08 May 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

You do not "grant sneaky movement". The player uses sneaky tactics, which by the way ECM is not a tactic it is an object. Being under ECM isn't sneaky when you can still see them right in front of you. And by your logic then why just LRMs? Why not grant immunity to all weapons being able to fire at you. Then you would be super sneaky!

Quote

But it's no worse than the Guardian-suite turning from supporting sneaky movement

There are plenty of maps that give you lower visibility that don't effect radar range. There are plenty of places where you can't see a mech against a dark background but can see them with 1200m radar range. And if your suggestion is to "use terrain", then what does ECM do?

Way for both of you to give dumbass answers to a simple question.

HURR DURR USE TERRAIN.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 08 May 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Then what does ECM do? Make terrain pop up. Way to not respond to the situation or question.

Can you rephrase that? In current edition, it makes no sense.

[Twisted Power]

I believe ECM prevents you from acquiring a target even if it is right in front of you so that the target is immune to all guided missile systems. Once again nothing "sneaky" about it.

[hammerreborn]

Twisted Power, on 08 May 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

I believe ECM prevents you from acquiring a target even if it is right in front of you so that the target is immune to all guided missile systems. Once again nothing "sneaky" about it.

Okay, so how do you go about implementing a "sneaky" ECM which you said it should be

Quote

But it's no worse than the Guardian-suite turning from supporting sneaky movement

without blocking radar locks/targeting? Which is the question I asked, and neither one of you have answered...twice.

Note I have supported getting lock ons from hovering over an untargetted mech (under ECM or otherwise) for a certain period of time (whatever the extended lock on period is) + 1s delay or so before the lock begins so you can't just swipe over terrain to find targets.

Livewyr, on 08 May 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Can you rephrase that? In current edition, it makes no sense.

I asked how you would change ECM to keep the sneaky nature of ECM (which twisted said it should be) without having radar locks, and you replied use terrain as thats the way they used to do it (ECM used to use terrain).

Edited by hammerreborn, 08 May 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 08 May 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

I asked how you would change ECM to keep the sneaky nature of ECM (which twisted said it should be) without having radar locks, and you replied use terrain.

ECM is not supposed to provide sneak value:
ECM is supposed to reduce the effectiveness of other advanced electronics. (You know.. ElectronicCountermeasure..)

Sneaking is supposed to provide sneak value.. lurking in the valleys and behind hills and buildings...

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 08 May 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

ECM is not supposed to provide sneak value:
ECM is supposed to reduce the effectiveness of other advanced electronics. (You know.. ElectronicCountermeasure..)

Sneaking is supposed to provide sneak value.. lurking in the valleys and behind hills and buildings...

Not my wording, it's Twisteds. Again, way to dodge the question.

Edited by hammerreborn, 08 May 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 08 May 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Not my wording, it's Twisteds. Again, way to dodge the question.

No, I answered your question. It went like this: "ECM is not supposed to provide sneak value:"

Thus it answers your question before it's even asked.

[General Taskeen]

I'm pretty sure sneaking involves one or more of the following equipment:

(note difficult != can't)
- Null Signature (sneaky no heat signature, shields from radar detection, difficult to acquire lock other than short range)
- Null Signature + CPS = (sneaky NPS benefits + no can see invisibile!)
- Stealth Armor + ECM (SA replicates NPS sneaky benefits + ECM canceling of Artemis Accuracy/NARC/C3 Info Sharing, difficult to acquire lock other than short range)
- Void Signature System + ECM (super no can see invisible! + ECM benefits, difficult to acquire lock)

So if people want SNEAKY sneak, then ask PGI for those things which also require tonnage/crit space and in some cases generate heat when active.


- ECM Vanilla (As above, Cancels Artemis Accuracy Bonus/Shuts off NARC SRM-LRM unguided seeking abiility in vicinity/Cancels Mech Info/Jams Beagle when in range - they can't see what you have, does not prevent lock) <-Game play purposes lock takes longer
- AECM Vanilla (As with ECM + bonus Cancels Artemis V Accuracy, Cancels Beagle, Cancels Bloodhound, Cancels C3i, Cancels Streaks - Streaks can dumb fire) <-Game play purposes lock takes longer

- Early Electronic Warfare Equipment (7.5 tons, 4 Crits, Combines Beagle Probe with ECM, shorter range)
- Watchdog System (1.5 Tons, 2 Crits, Regular Clan Probe + Clan ECM)

- Beagle Probe/AEP (Detects shut down mechs, enhances detection range, cancels ECM info blocking if in range, if near ECM, Probe is aware it is being jammed)
- Bloodhound Probe (As with BP/AEP, + Increased Range, Can Detect Stealth Armor, Void Signature, Null Signature, and detect ECM units faster)


Allof this equipment is a big paper-rock-scissor in its original format. ECM provides bonuses against certain other bonuses (soft counters), but does not block missiles, except for AECM blocking streak seaking, but not LRMs.


Also MW:LL ECM (this is how they made it for scouting and "sneaking"):

* When in Passive Radar Mode and have ECM, no active or passive radar can detect you. You're detection range on radar is 0m. Locks against you take even longer. If anyone sees you, they can point their cursor at you and achieve a lock if they have a lock-on weapon, otherwise they can obviously use a direct fire weapon.
* Downside to Passive Radar - All lock on weapons dumb fire, they do not seek, can not detect anything on radar, you receive no warnings for incoming missiles

Edited by General Taskeen, 08 May 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[Twisted Power]

I never said it should be sneaky, you did. I do not think ECM should prevent target acquisition. ECM should negate the effects of BAP and Artemis and the jamming from 180m radius should slow lock on times for LRMS and SRMS.

Edited by Twisted Power, 08 May 2013 - 11:32 AM.

[MammaMu]

A good way to get feedback from players!


In a game I tried recently they added a small pop up window in the pre-launch UI with a multiple choice question about the game and updated it from time to time.

Games that are interested in making money should be interested in the views of their customers and I think that this would be an excelent tool to use in Mechwarrior as well.

Start by posing a couple of questions about ECM! A very small percentage of players posts on the forums so it's kinda hard to know the views of the majority by reading the forums. If this games developers are so sure that the majority of the players of Mechwarrior enjoy the current state of the ECM then putting this question to players at large should only confirm this.

Of course you have to put some thought into formulating unbiased questions and you might need to ask more then one question about a subject to be able to understand what players think about a certain subject.

Some possible questions:

1. Do you think that ECM in it's current state is generally balanced and improves gameplay?
(1. Unsure 2. Yes 3. No)

2. Do you feel that light mechs using ECM+Streaks has an unfair advantage over lights that do not have ECM? (1. Unsure 2. Yes 3. No)

3. When your team has no ECM and the opponents have many ECM do you usually find that the match is fun and balanced? (1. Unsure 2. Yes 3. No)

[Livewyr]

MammaMu, on 09 May 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

A good way to get feedback from players!


In a game I tried recently they added a small pop up window in the pre-launch UI with a multiple choice question about the game and updated it from time to time.

Games that are interested in making money should be interested in the views of their customers and I think that this would be an excelent tool to use in Mechwarrior as well.

Start by posing a couple of questions about ECM! A very small percentage of players posts on the forums so it's kinda hard to know the views of the majority by reading the forums. If this games developers are so sure that the majority of the players of Mechwarrior enjoy the current state of the ECM then putting this question to players at large should only confirm this.

Of course you have to put some thought into formulating unbiased questions and you might need to ask more then one question about a subject to be able to understand what players think about a certain subject.

Some possible questions:

1. Do you think that ECM in it's current state is generally balanced and improves gameplay?
(1. Unsure 2. Yes 3. No)

2. Do you feel that light mechs using ECM+Streaks has an unfair advantage over lights that do not have ECM? (1. Unsure 2. Yes 3. No)

3. When your team has no ECM and the opponents have many ECM do you usually find that the match is fun and balanced? (1. Unsure 2. Yes 3. No)

I'm sorry sir, but that would remove ECM's current protection under the "The individuals with voiced opinions represent a small demographic and not the gaming population as a whole [who obviously like ECM where it is.]"

But thank you for trying.

[Twisted Power]

Livewyr, on 09 May 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

I'm sorry sir, but that would remove ECM's current protection under the "The individuals with voiced opinions represent a small demographic and not the gaming population as a whole [who obviously like ECM where it is.]"

But thank you for trying.

This. In a real beta test they have all sorts of ways to give feedback in game. If PGI cared that would have been done a long time ago. Instead they put up a forum to post on and then said that most of the players who posts about gameplay in a direction that is other then what PGI's vision is, gives worthless feedback because they are a small minority of the player base.

Edited by Twisted Power, 09 May 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[Kaijin]

The whole beta's been a sham, both open and closed. Beta "testers'" purpose has been primarily to stress the servers and as a bonus to put money into PIG's pockets. It's been made abundantly clear they're not interested in anything we've got to say about MWO. Any fault mentioned concerning Development or Management is grounds for disciplinary action.

[Kyone Akashi]

hammerreborn, on 08 May 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Okay, so how do you go about implementing a "sneaky" ECM

Disable the Mechs under ECM automatically showing up as blips on enemy sensors. Take them out of the targeting rotation so they are not "accidentally" discovered just by cycling through R. Yet make them still targettable if a player holds the crosshair over their physical profile and holds R for a second or two - representing the player manually telling his computer that there's something there and the electronics should do a visual lock. Missile weapons continue to function as normal.

As already mentioned, ECM by itself isn't "sneaky", but it should support sneaking.

In addition to affecting BAP and Artemis, it should also actively jam sensors and communications with the following effects:

• jam minimap of enemy 'Mechs in jamming range
  
• prevent enemy 'Mechs in jamming range from exchanging sensor data with their team
  
• disable friend/foe identification of enemy 'Mechs in jamming range, having the pilots rely on visual identification

Ironically, the last point is exactly what's being removed with the planned change. I would have vastly preferred the devs addressing concerns regarding teamplay with the following supporting features:

• every few seconds, let the true ID of the 'Mechs show, representing the sensors temporarily overcoming the jamming (can be improved via modules)
  
• the jamming 'Mech has a high chance of being highlighted as such (red "<ECM>" marker), as the sensors manage to track the source of the incoming signal storm, thus allowing jammed opponents to more easily kill the jammer rather than panicking and shooting everybody

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 11 May 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Sheraf]

ECM should have effective range increased to 500m, and also jam your interface

[StalaggtIKE]

The current state of ECM makes me very sad. ECM was supposed to be one of the many tools within Information Warfare, but instead became the sole impacting part of IW, as well as a hardcounter to missiles. It took the devs a while to acknowledge its balance issues and when they finally did, they felt the best way to balance it was to slightly buff things around it. In their wisdom they concluded the best way to have ECM harmonize within the game is to temporarily remove it from battle through hard counters. For instance, PPC were buffed (greater speed and less heat) to compensate and we're now experiencing those effects (snipe fest). This resulted in arm race; where the battle is decided more by what you have brought rather than how you use it.

Now on the 21st, BAP will no longer be desired for its innate abilities to extend radar detection, but instead for the fact it will also hardcounter ECM. Finally they've decided to actually tweak ECM, however the result is to simply remove its IFF stripping abilities, thus removing one of its greatest IW abilites and solidifying its role to that of a goldenglorified AMS. Maintaining the ridiculous AMS abilities are unnecessary because, despite hack job after hack job, missiles are finally getting addressed. It seems only ECM, will remain forever in a state of cluster ****ery. All due to stubbornness.

[Sheraf]

I often joke about giving the streakcats ECM. Now they kinda give it ECM, half of ECM feature
I have no problem with streakcats, but everything still revolve around ECM. Maybe ECM is the one that should be changed, not modifying everything around it to counter it.

BAP shouldn't become a must have equipment just like ECM was. Everything need to be an option, not a necessity.

Edited by Sheraf, 20 May 2013 - 06:17 AM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Give it a few weeks ... RVN-3Ls and COM-2Ds will not be as common, and as their numbers decrease, so will the BAP+Streak boats ... who knows what the next-next flavor-of-the-month build will be?

In the meantime, play what you have fun in ... nothing's "for keeps", yet.

[Hoaggie]

Niko Snow, on 03 April 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

ECM should not cut out friendly signatures on the battlefield. Friendly Mechs should always be identifiable and not obscure team play.

TL;DR, not trying to run your s*** but, seeing friendly icons should be a skill, specifics in spoiler

The devs make a lot of good points, it is nice to see their thought process, and I want to preface what I am about to say with the fact that I hate ECM to begin with; however, I really think that just giving it a blanket nerf is not the best thing for the overall enjoyment of the game.

I'm not typically one to tell people how to make a game, and I'm not suggesting that I know better how to ballance the ECM system, but I believe I have a different perspective and that it is easier to think freely without the pressure that comes with developing a game like MWO.

Not seeing friendly icons really adds a sense of gritty realism to the game, it makes the fight desperate, and requires that a pilot think before pulling the trigger. Just giving friendly icons makes a game winning difference, the EMC becomes half as effective because the enemy mechs are still apparent.

I think it would be better balanced if there were a skill required to show friendly icons inside an enemy ECM bubble. Not a skill for each person to level on their own, but a skill that if held by the commander or lance leader would show the friendly icons. Doing this would create an effective in-game balance/counter for ECM, allow new players to benefit from the experienced veteran players on their team, foster a better team attitude, and would make the commander/lance-leader positions relevant.

Because I drank a lot of coffee today and because I want to see the game develop in a direction where victory is determined by player skill rather than equipment and game features, I have outlined some ideas for the skill the blow spoiler.

Spoiler

Skill name, “Know your mechs” or “Known friendlies”
It would work the same as visually spotting non-ECM’ed enemy mechs, but based on the idea that a lance leader or commander would be able to visually distinguish their subordinates, either by their mech class or by their distinctive markings, tehn relay that information to the rest of the mech in the area.

• When a friendly mech is in an enemy ECM bubble their icon is not visible by default, the lance leader or commander has to be looking at them.
  
• A commander or lance leader with the approximate skill can spot and “relay” their subordinates ID to the rest of the team if they are outside the ECM bubble.
  
• The icons should be a color that indicates they are under ECM
  
• No data beyond the friendly triangle is available (health, name, mech type, and ECM icon should not be displayed)
  
• Locations and facing on the map may be displayed, but at a delayed rate and the icons do not update in real time (think about a lance leader frantically relaying the mech’s locations vocally), it may be that if the leader is busy fighting or maneuvering the updates will take longer.
  
• If the commander/lance leader is killed the identification of friendly mechs ceases

• Hey, maybe it would even require a command console for the skill to work

Just sit back and let it think for you, no need to actually know what the mechs on your team look like.

[Valaska]

Guys! There's a fix for ECM coming!!


http://www.kickstart...-gear-assault-0