1089 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Ghogiel, on 03 April 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

I'll wait for your proof that ECM is broken.

show me something else in the game that is 1.5 tons and can only be mounted on very specific chassis that has as much effect in how people build their 'Mechs, the tactics they play the game, the counters revolving around it, the amount of equipment like radar, communication, and missiles it defeats, and has absolutely no negative such as heat or skill to use and I'll admit it is fine and not broken.

Edited by DocBach, 03 April 2013 - 07:29 PM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

PGI - We have our observations ... in our view ECM is over-powered, and the only viable counter is more ECM.

In organized (8-man) teams, that's OK ... the team gets to make a conscious decison to bring ECM or not. In random matches, it appears imbalanced when one team drops with more than one ECM mech, and the other has zero.

1v0 ECM is not a big deal, the team with none focus fires on the one ECM mech, and the game is (more or less) back to normal.

2 (or more) ECM vs. 0 ECM, and probably 3 (or more) ECM vs. 1 ECM appears to be a major influence in who wins the match. That means, ECM is imbalanced, at least it is for it's minimal drawbacks (1.5 tons and 2 crit slots).

You have the data ... it may actually be that matches between teams with significantly unequal amounts of ECM work out to about 50/50 win/loss, but I seriously doubt it. No one piece of equipment should be that important to the outcome of a match.

Letting us see IFF on friendlies inside ECM makes sense, if they have line-of-sight to another friendly outside of ECM.

Projectile hit-state fixing affects all mechs equally, and should not be considered as a counter to ECM.

<edited for spelling>

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 03 April 2013 - 07:41 PM.

[MischiefSC]

The proposed changes and the existing effects for ECM counters are irrelevant to the issues ECM/missile balance generates.

Team stealth shield and a feast/famine design for LRMs shafts pugs. That is exactly what it does and it does it pretty well. In order to use ECM and/or LRMs to full effect you have to drop with a team designed to use them effectively together.

That's bad balancing for pugs. It is a design specifically based around the idea of helping premade teams beat pug teams. That's it. It serves no other purpose.

To fix it make ECM slow, not block, missile lock. The whole 'have to be in X range with LOS, TAG, two glass beads in your left pocket while hopping on one foot for LRMs to work but only on Tuesdays when someone on your team has 1 ton of MG ammo in their left foot but no MGs loaded' concept is bad. I'm exaggerating to make a point but I feel the point is valid.

It really feels like there's this desire to create an overpowered item (ECM or LRMs or both) that's 'balanced' by coordinated mech loadouts or one-off stuff like PPCs or range modifications or modules or the like.

Don't do it. Don't. It's never going to work well for anyone save premade teams playing against pugs. It's not a good balance idea.

Balance each item relative to every other item. Weapons like LRMs are balanced by long range and indirect fire vs having a minimum range, weight and heat. ECM should deal with the mech equipping it, it should delay (not block) locks and should blocks its paperdoll from detection, possibly the paperdoll of nearby mechs. It should be available to every mech.

The current balance concept is designed, intentionally or otherwise, to punish people for pugging. That's it. For obvious reasons I don't find it a good idea, please take it a different direction. Please.

[Karr285]

Deathlike, on 03 April 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

I remember someone had some really nice idea for PPCs to completely disable ECM until the mech shut down. This is an awesome idea IMO... because it does a few things:

why has this not even been tried yet? seriously hello you keep saying BETA but you refuse to TRY a fix your community asks for to fix your broken mechanic . you could at least put in a 1 week patch that just does this alone and see what the community thinks. (just rollback the patch if ppl hate it)

Hell put a survey in the game at the end of the week that prompts when you log in so you can get 100% player feedback.

Edited by Karr285, 03 April 2013 - 07:38 PM.

[Corros]

So the counter to ECM is lower TTK? TTK is already low for all mechs. ;

My problems with ECM were never related to hit detection. My complaint was its not fun to have your weapons completely useless while the enemy has full function without much trade off. 3 tons 2 slots is hardly a reasonable trade off for the benefits gained. Now the hardpoint system may help a bit but judgement shall be reserved until I see it in game.

[hammerreborn]

Deathlike, on 03 April 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

I get the strong feeling here that ECM is supposed to make a mech "preferable" to use in the end... for the meta-game.

It still doesn't factor in that the non-ECM light variants simply cannot be competitive... outside of the Jenner.

I remember someone had some really nice idea for PPCs to completely disable ECM until the mech shut down. This is an awesome idea IMO... because it does a few things:

1) A light mech has a far better chance to "disengage" with the enemy due to its natural speed. Forcing it to "lose" its natural ECM barrier by fleeing can have a positive effect.. and if it doesn't choose to disengage, well, streaks ahoy!

2) An slow mech, like the ECM Atlases, it doesn't change their meta-game that much. Shutting down in combat as a bigger mech has lesser consequences (unless someone is watching). So, it's not that big a deal there.

The "temporary" disabling effect has very little impact as it requires a mech to have streaks and a minimum of 2 ppcs to keep firing at the enemy. I had expected a lot of PPC+Streak combos when the disruption effect was first instituted.... and it's come true for the most part.

PPCs+LRMs are still unusable in the current form, but technically they can be more useful in my proposed change. Since the light mech's ECM is disabled, it has a much more viable chance to get off an LRM to respond. It's not perfect mind you, but 4 seconds is simply not enough to make LRMs useful... forcing a light mech to get cover and shutdown can be a lot harder when the cloaking effect is disabled... especially on Alpine. The current system allows light mechs to "shrug the PPC effect" off of them... which isn't really a good enough solution at all.

Non Jenner/3L (aside from maybe the 2D and with current missile values even that is highly suspect) are non-competive even if ECM was removed today.

The biggest thing holding back Commandos and Spiders right now are the engine limits. Not ECM, not hardpoints, but the engine limits. If commandos could hit the ~200 like they could in closed beta they could escape the streak toting ravens and actually scout like they are supposed to. With all the Ravens running the same speed streaks become the primary weapon, and ECM is therefore the way to use them with the highest effectiveness.

[Peiper]

Karr285, on 03 April 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

why has this not even been tried yet? seriously hello you keep saying BETA but you refuse to TRY a fix your community asks for to fix your broken mechanic . you could at least put in a 1 week patch that just does this alone and see what the community thinks. (just rollback the patch if ppl hate it)

Hell put a survey in the game at the end of the week that prompts when you log in so you can get 100% player feedback.

You said two things that I very much agree with. 1. Tack a survey to the patcher to really get a full idea of what the players are hoping for, what they do and don't like. (And publish the results so that we on the forums can learn from the results and offer more appropriate feedback and suggestions.)

2. TRY some of the great ideas we've put out there for a week or two regarding ECM, and if they don't work rollback or tweak accordingly. Can it really hurt to know?

Many of us here, who've put hundreds or thousands of hours into playing the game know it quite intimately and can offer some great suggestions. Many of the suggestions we offer can be made using technology and that already exists in game, just by changing values and limits of gear.

I understand that PGI knows that letting the gamers have too much power can derail a game. But unlike many other titles out there, MWO is an evolution of previous games. We want a bigger, better, cleaner and nastier version of previous mechwarrior and related titles. Our visions for the game are 99% similar to PGI's. But we can also see things PGI cannot because WE'RE the BETA testers. We're the ones using the latest version of the product while the internal testers and developers are testing Clan mechs, 12 v 12, and a who knows what else. So yeah, you know things we don't, but WE KNOW THINGS you CAN'T know. Most of us here on the forums, I believe, aren't impulsive kids either - though some certainly spend more time making MEME's than actually adding something productive and useful. You get my point, though...

[hammerreborn]

MischiefSC, on 03 April 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

The proposed changes and the existing effects for ECM counters are irrelevant to the issues ECM/missile balance generates.

Team stealth shield and a feast/famine design for LRMs shafts pugs. That is exactly what it does and it does it pretty well. In order to use ECM and/or LRMs to full effect you have to drop with a team designed to use them effectively together.

That's bad balancing for pugs. It is a design specifically based around the idea of helping premade teams beat pug teams. That's it. It serves no other purpose.

To fix it make ECM slow, not block, missile lock. The whole 'have to be in X range with LOS, TAG, two glass beads in your left pocket while hopping on one foot for LRMs to work but only on Tuesdays when someone on your team has 1 ton of MG ammo in their left foot but no MGs loaded' concept is bad. I'm exaggerating to make a point but I feel the point is valid.

It really feels like there's this desire to create an overpowered item (ECM or LRMs or both) that's 'balanced' by coordinated mech loadouts or one-off stuff like PPCs or range modifications or modules or the like.

Don't do it. Don't. It's never going to work well for anyone save premade teams playing against pugs. It's not a good balance idea.

Balance each item relative to every other item. Weapons like LRMs are balanced by long range and indirect fire vs having a minimum range, weight and heat. ECM should deal with the mech equipping it, it should delay (not block) locks and should blocks its paperdoll from detection, possibly the paperdoll of nearby mechs. It should be available to every mech.

The current balance concept is designed, intentionally or otherwise, to punish people for pugging. That's it. For obvious reasons I don't find it a good idea, please take it a different direction. Please.

My own game collection data (pre-ELO) had the team with 1 or more ECM winning ~55% of the time, not accounting for premades or anything else (more ECM, aside from a 1-0 or maybe a 2-1 = nearly guarenteed premade). It had less of an effect than having more awesomes/spiders/cicadas on your team (~70% win rate for the team with less of each), premades (80% win rate for the premade team), Of the 5 ECM mechs, only the 3L and the D-DC had winning records, with the D-DC having the biggest win rate (~65%), and not a single team with a 3M won.

And 8 mans these days are whatever team brings the bigger alphas (40Jagers/poptarts) or just completely outtonning their opponents. My recent games (~20) have seen 2 teams have mechs below the heavy class.

Edited by hammerreborn, 03 April 2013 - 08:15 PM.

[Peiper]

hammerreborn, on 03 April 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

And 8 mans these days are whatever team brings the bigger alphas (40Jagers/poptarts) or just completely outtonning their opponents. My recent games (~20) have seen 2 teams have mechs below the heavy class.

But ECM still helps the AC40 and extra-heavy builds because it allows them to close much easier than the unit without them. And a friendly mech under an ECM bubble can jumpsnipe while in the bubble, making it very difficult to detect/lock-on the jumpsnipers. ECM IS FUBAR!!!

[Teralitha]

I still do not like the area effect cloaking. But being able to see team mates will make a some difference.

ECM with those changes could actually be nerfed pretty hard.... depending on what weapons you carry. If the ECM were hardpointed to the right torso(for example) with its 3 internal health it will fall prey to TAC quite often, just as do guass rifles and AC20's


Paul, I think the PPC counter should be expanded on a bit more. You should give a PPC hit a chance to destroy the ECM. The ECM is sensitive equipment. A PPC jolt could possibly fry its circuts. This way you dont necessarily have to destroy the entire hitbox location where the ECM is, just hit it with a PPC.

Having counters is one thing, having RELIABLE and USEFUL counters is another. Give us the chance to fry/destroy an ECM with PPC's and I'll be happy. I suggest 5% chance per hit, regardless of how many PPCs the shooter is firing at once. If you alpha with 3 PPC's it will count only as 1 hit, and one 5% chance to knock out the ECM.

Does anyone else think this is fair? I would be satisfied with this. If you wont reduce its capabilities, then you need to increase the counter's capabilities 10 fold.

If you wont do that either, then just remove ECM from the game

Edited by Teralitha, 04 April 2013 - 08:05 AM.

[yashmack]

Teralitha, on 03 April 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

I still do not like the area effect cloaking. But being able to see team mates will make a some difference.

ECM with those changes could actually be nerfed pretty hard.... depending on what weapons you carry. If the ECM were hardpointed to the right torso(for example) with its 3 internal health it will fall prey to TAC quite often, just as do guass rifles and AC20's


Paul, I think the PPC counter should be exanded a bit more. You should give a PPC hit a chance to destroy the ECM. The ECM is sensitive equipment. A PPC jolt could possibly fry its circuts. This way you dont necessarily have to destroy the entire hitbox location where the ECM is, just hit it with a PPC.

you dont have to destoy the entire hitbox, you just have to get a critical hit on the ECM...

I thought ECM was fine when it was released and I love all the counters we have now
ECM is fine as it is

[MischiefSC]

hammerreborn, on 03 April 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

My own game collection data (pre-ELO) had the team with 1 or more ECM winning ~55% of the time, not accounting for premades or anything else (more ECM, aside from a 1-0 or maybe a 2-1 = nearly guarenteed premade). It had less of an effect than having more awesomes/spiders/cicadas on your team (~70% win rate for the team with less of each), premades (80% win rate for the premade team), Of the 5 ECM mechs, only the 3L and the D-DC had winning records, with the D-DC having the biggest win rate (~65%), and not a single team with a 3M won.

And 8 mans these days are whatever team brings the bigger alphas (40Jagers/poptarts) or just completely outtonning their opponents. My recent games (~20) have seen 2 teams have mechs below the heavy class.

This is more an impact of people just learning to work around a bad mechanic than anything else. LRMs are boat or go home and only use if you're on a team. Presence of a premade team with stacked ECM and LRM support gives a considerable advantage. I know, I've done it. I've watched it happen many times.

The result is that few pugs use LRMs because odds are they're useless to you. Maybe if you boat and carry tag but again, a feast or famine design.

The whole point of ECM/LRM balance (streaks in that context as well) is that they're designed to work together and against each other in organized multi-mech formats. This is inherently going to punish people who pug either by denying them weapon groups (LRMs/Streaks) unless they're in ECM mechs or self-supporting with TAG, unable to use part of LRMs functionality or require you to just drop and pray. Compared to dropping in a team designed to work with it.

Here's the thing. It's not that ECM is some crushingly OPed tool. It's OPed compared to everything else in its function group by a stupidly large distance but it's not like an auto-win button unless you've got a group of Ravens for example (not an auto win button but a stacking of efficiency to be sure).

What it does do however is create a balance situation that punishes people for pugging and require people to work around it - not in a good way but in a game bug sort of way. Like if the game dropped you through the floor if you fired SRMs just before you landed from jumping. People just wouldn't do it unless it was a suicide maneuver. That's not adding tactical depth it's just a problem to work around.

It's the concept of how the balance works. It's completely out of whack with how everything else in the game is balanced and, I'll say it again, it punishes you for pugging. ECM/LRMs are vastly more effective when used in a premade. ACs are not, not in the same concept. BAP isn't. SRMs are not. Gauss, lasers, nothing else.

The function of ECM/Missile balance (LRM/Streak) is to give organized teams who stack them an advantage over pugs and those teams that don't.

There is no fix for that other than to change it. Quit trying to make unit-balanced weapons and tools. It doesn't work well and never will work well unless you split queues into pug and premade, which is a bad idea of its own.

[mr dude guy]

the PPC should disable the ECM for a longer period of time.

[Chauneko]

Seriously, it takes a fair amount of time before I actually become annoyed let alone angry. That preface being stated, I am slowly trending towards being annoyed with the chosen implementation of ECM and the entire way PGI has handled corresponding with the community about ECM. Otherwise, read on for feedback on ECM...

Some relevant stats for perspective on my views:

I primarily play mediums, heavies, and assaults.
My primary style of play is as a non-poptarting sniper, support brawler, or LRM boat.
I have Mastered 29 mech variants which includes 3 ravens, 3 cicadas, and 3 atlai.
My accuracy with PPC's and ERPPC's is 61.53% (1440/886) and 57.96% (3911/2267) respectively.
I am 9 drops shy of 3000 matches since open beta started.

What I am trying to say with these points is that I am fairly experienced in MWO and generally don't suck. I have played both sides of the ECM playbook in solo drops, 4 mans, and 8 mans numerous times learning the strengths and weaknesses across many matches with varied circumstances.

Here is my feedback on ECM:

1. Soft counters (ER/PPC's, sensor range module) are spitballs in the wind unless there are at most 2 enemy ECM units in the area of engagement.
2. If the mech a sensor range module is mounted on is slower than the mech it is engaging it is utterly useless excluding some rare circumstances.

I really can't beat this next one to death enough but it doesn't seem like it ever gets heard by you PGI, I really don't know how to say it either. ECM is not balanced. That it's the only hard counter to itself is alright, really. It unfairly biases builds and team balances but that will happen regardless of what the game is like. What isn't fair is how it can literally shut down an entire branch of weapon systems for zero effort and zero exposure with no drawbacks for the team, it doesn't even require line of sight to be effective! Every other system in the game has a drawback of some kind or another. Gauss rifles explode, AC20's have explosive ammo and require huge crits/tonnage, SRM's are heat/range limited(and recently fixed), beams require time on target, PPC's heat, etc.

ECM has no real drawback to fitting it. The tonnage and crits are laughable, especially when compared to the benefits it brings to the table. This makes it a no brainer and actually a mandatory piece of equipment to fit on any mech that can carry it.

Mandatory equipment and equipment that everyone would fit if they could is not balanced in any way. ECM should be an option not a requirement for competitive and non-competitive play. I would recommend adding more depth to ECM, there are many threads about how to do this. I suggest at least looking at http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2103570 for angles on potential ways to do this.

I wish I felt like this would actually get through to you PGI. I wish that something I or any of us on the forums have said would actually cause you to pause and not just rethink what you have done already, but actually rewrite your concept from your desired results and see if you can find a less drastic method to achieve it. As it stands now I feel dirty when my team has more ECM than the other team or if the other team has poor snipers who can't hit my team's ECM mechs.

I have no words, at this point, that can convey my depth of concern on ECM as a part of the game and ECM as a part of the whole that is interaction between devs and the playerbase. I urge you PGI, please reconsider the stance you are taking and precedent you are setting on ECM.

[TaintedDoughnut]

Sorry Devs this is a pure case of ECM is BAD and you should feel bad for supporting it as is.

With the Horror that is the new vision modes the only mechs viable for competitive play are ECM mechs. You have created a 1.5 ton stealth system that has NO real counter. Thinking PPC's and the sensor module is a counter is cute. Really can I have what drugs you are on because they clearly alter reality and make things turn into a mystical fairy tale land.

Now the snarky cynical remarks aside. The paltry changes being offered are not enough change. Unless ECM is given .3 health and can be auto crited everytime it's location is hit this is not even close to balance. If your goal is to continue making it next to impossible to attract players and limit tactics to close in brawl than mission accomplished. But note that is not the game I "purchased" when I bought a founders pack. As it stands after reading that post on ECM I seriously feel cheated out of my money(refund I can haz please?). I had such high hopes for this game but your sadly only making me want to post scathing negative reviews in every forum and media outlet I have access to.
ECM SHOULD NOT negate all lock on weapons AND render all mechs around it invisible.(yes invisible because with the vision nerfs that happened be damned if I can see them clearly) . Increase lock on times making it much harder to use weapons sure reduce detection ranges 25% putting it inline with BAP a piece of equipment that is the same tonnage and crit okay but as it is it's a mystical I WIN box with no viable counter.
Congratulations on creating ECMWO
ECM-Warrior Online.
Also the active campaign of discouraging people from playing starts now.

[hammerreborn]

Peiper, on 03 April 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

But ECM still helps the AC40 and extra-heavy builds because it allows them to close much easier than the unit without them. And a friendly mech under an ECM bubble can jumpsnipe while in the bubble, making it very difficult to detect/lock-on the jumpsnipers. ECM IS FUBAR!!!

Not really...any 8v8 team worth their salt 1) isn't using LRMs and 2) can see the other team coming.

[Elizander]

AlexEss, on 03 April 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

to be honest the only real problem with ECM right now is the ECM+Streak combo. Outside of that it is perfectly fine.

In my personal opinion.

But streaks really don't hurt so much anymore. I can leg lights way faster than they can get through my torso armor.

[Rocket Puppy]

Not usually one to speak up and it is probably a waste of my time but here we go:

I don't have huge issues with ECM, I find it slightly imbalanced but not rage inducing most the time. When stacked it can be extremely frustrating to fight against, especially because it isn't being taken into account in matchmaking.

ECM was likely introduced because people thought missiles were doing too much damage, then people thought they were useless, then we go the testing grounds and found out that missiles were actually doing way too much damage.

ECM isn't that big of a deal on a single mech, but can absolutely break games when stacked. It does too much for its weight and critical slots.

It needs to either be split up into two modules (Missile block/counter or Radar Block/counter) or have 3 modes (Missile Block/Radar Block/Counter).

Give Assaults the ability to equip two of them and have counter mode disrupt any other mode running despite the number of ECM equipment on board.

I'm cool with a piece of equipment blocking missile lock, I'm cool with a piece of equipment blocking radar, I'm not cool with a 1.5 ton piece of equipment doing both passively. Force players to switch modes and actively use it depending upon situation.

Making a locked hardpoint is a non-solution. It looks like developer ego is getting in the way of finding a "correct" fix and instead doing a "our way" fix.

I love the game, and hope PGI keeps up the good work. I know the forums are a toxic place but once and awhile a group of hateful morons can make a good point.

[Elizander]

The IFF thing will be big for new players. Ever since laser state rewind, light mechs and ECM have been a non-issue for me unless I get bored and bring an all ballistic mech. Leg all the lights. They all have XL. Mucho salvage.

[Peiper]

Rocket Puppy, on 03 April 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

Making a locked hardpoint is a non-solution. It looks like developer ego is getting in the way of finding a "correct" fix and instead doing a "our way" fix.

+1