1089 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

shintakie, on 03 April 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

It'd be better if all the ECM mechs were like the 3M. The 3M is only so so. No missile hard points. Kinda wonky hardpoints in the first place. No JJ's (though no Cicada has them), and kinda undergunned. That's a tradeoff for ECM right there. The Raven, Atlas, and Spider ended up havin the best variants already get the extra bump with ECM makin the others even worse.

Think of it like this. What if the Raven with ECM was the 2X? The 3L would be faster and better gunned, but you'd lose the utility of ECM to use it. What if the Spider that had it was the..uhh...whichever one only has 2 energy hard points in the chest, or the 5K because lolMG's? You'd lose firepower for a gain in utility.

That's how ECM should be spread out. The mechs with the least optimal hard point allocations should get the utility boost of ECM, not the mechs with the best possible hardpoints.

In theory, sure. In practice, the 3L on paper really is the goto Raven mech (2X/4X are just time wasters/grinders). You proposal however actually means that PGI has to properly balance between the variants... which their "quirks" system does not even remotely address this in any proper semblance (like the X5 debut + the 3M nerfs).

That doesn't even BEGIN to explain why MGs are so underpowered and making the 3C almost useless, outside of some troll build.

[Zyllos]

Sorry, but that feedback is a joke...

GECM still covers like AECM. Why is GECM AECM? GECM should be used to scout, only stopping locking onto the mech with missiles for ONLY that mech, and for defending yourself and friends against the added bonuses of BAP and NARC.

You guys keep saying you want GECM to add variability to range of weapons. With your current implementation, GECM is the end-all-be-all.

The one ability of a balanced GECM, keeping enemy mechs from showing enermy targets and friendlies, is actually being removed? Thats the whole point of GECM, to let that mech scout!!!

PPC should not be a counter to GECM. It never was in the TT, it should not be here.

All this game is turning into is Alpha Strike PPCs and GECM. If you don't run either, your not competative.

[Byk]

Prosperity Park, on 03 April 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Also, it seems like the only "downside" to equipping ECM will be the fact that you give yourself away when you sneak up within 180meters on the enemy Team when they have ECM present. Having yourself given-away in exchange for all the gains that ECM offers is not exactly the kind of "downside" the typical system of MechWarrior/BattleTech Checks and Balances would require, in my opinion.

That's not even a downside though. A good pilot with ECM will just go behind the enemy team, and turn their ECM to counter mode before they get within the disruption range of ECM. Meaning there will be no disruption to warn you that they're even there.

Royalewithcheese, on 03 April 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

On the subject of the 3-L, Garth has been dropping hints that that particular variant may be nerfed.

Except there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Raven 3L chassis... What's wrong is that Streak SRM's are the most broken weapon in game by miles, and ECM does way too much for a 1.5 ton piece of equipment and negates an opponent's SSRM's from hitting them. The Raven 3L isn't the problem, it just so happens that you can outfit it with the two most broken pieces of equipment in game and that's what people do. That and the other two Raven variants have a 40kph slower max speed than *any* other light mech.

Edited by Byk, 03 April 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

The tears are delicious.

[Corvus Antaka]

what is PGI's stance on the ECM raven 3L -...the SSRM/ECM/Fastest raven engine makes this mech vastly superior to all other light mechs, and cripples so many other mechs that where common place before, the no-viability of any but the commando 2D variant or the Spider ECM variant, and even then in comp play the raven 3L is really the only choice.

Will the raven 3L have 1 missile hardpoint pulled...or its engine size cut down so that it has some weakness to counter it's power over all other light mechs? at least the commando 2D dies fast! (though it too could stand to lose 1 missile node to the 1B to better balance the variants)

also ECM stacking and the complete worthlessness in 8 mans of LRMS, or indeed in any match of note when tourneys are run etc and the ECMS come screaming out - does PGI see a future where LRMS are actually viable on the battlefield as primary weapons for a mech like the C1? Even before the LRM hotfix LRMS where useless in 8 mans, how will these concerns be addressed?

I enjoy the current gameplay minus LRMS, but I do miss the indirect fire dynamic LRMS bring to the battlefield. imho the entire LRM/SSRM/ECM dynamic remains flaws, and while Pauls comments on 2 primary community concerns are positive, I still do not feel that they are enough too address the bigger picture of LRMS and how they fit into the gameplay picture.

The ECM/wack-a-mole gameplay is certainly untouched by arty/airstrikes in effectiveness.

The MWO radar experience remains lacking. 3rd person will be problematic if it comes due to lack of radar when near a mech within 50-200 meters, as 3rd will stop sneak ups on you much better.

These are my current thoughts on ECM issues that remains. I certainly miss piloting my LRM mechs like the catapult, and hope that someday in the future they will actually be viable again.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 03 April 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[BlueSanta]

Thontor, on 03 April 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Disagree, I don't think the CDA-3M or AS7-D-DC are the best variants. The biggest reason the 3L is the best Raven is the speed.

DDC has and currently always will be best Atlas variant.

[Dr Killinger]

In my opinion - make a few certain mechs able to carry BAP, then make ECM only disrupt, and give it's counter ability to BAP.

And make ECM interfere both with enemy locks, and the mech mounting it. Streaks are a massive part of the issue.

[CancR]

http://mwomercs.com/...m-guardian-ecm/

If only the morons at PGI would put down the Xbox controllers and pause Call of duty for just long enough to play any other the mechwarrior games, we wouldn't be at this junction.

[Vassago Rain]

BlueSanta, on 03 April 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

DDC has and currently always will be best Atlas variant.

Which has a lot more to do with the triple missile slot for rocketpunch than ECM, and before brawling and ECM were even a thing, you could artemis lurm farm in the ghetto.

So...

[Hedonism Robot]

Give the BAP the ECM counter ability and make the ECM always active imo. I would also open up more variants that can equip ECM to promote mech diversity.

[Vassago Rain]

So many cries of muh canon fluff.

[Fishbulb333]

No changes to light + ECM + SSRM interaction. Dissapointing.

ECM bubble will still stack when there's multiple ECM mechs on a team thus completely negating the emp effect from PPC, TAG laser's ability to pierce the bubble and the ability for 1 ECM light to run in and counter that DDC.

Advanced sensor range module sounds great, but in reality gives a much smaller edge for 30,000 GXP than ECM gives for 1.5tons 2 crit slots and a small pile of cbills. Also in practice the short extension of lock on range it provides is not all that useful.

An ECM mech being hit with PPC does not become "very vulnerable" rather exactly as vulnerable as every other mech on the field. Important distinction.

No mention of BAP.

No mention of NARC.

State rewind is a good thing, but it is a fallacy to believe this is a fix to any real or perceived issues with ECM, this will affect all mechs equally (both the benefits and disadvantages), fast lights/mediums will feel this change more than others though.

[EvangelionUnit]

Deathlike, on 03 April 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Well technically, he is hinting that the 2X and 4X may get some sort of buff... I only hope for an engine buff.

Even then, they are still garbage when the 3L is still the goto Raven.

well, everyone who allready ownd a 3L want to Elite it as fast as possible ? *hint hint*

about the disturb and that you gain attention when going to close to someone with it (like on frozen city in the cave, you can perfect detect an ECM scout from E5 ...

anyway, its just like in battlefield with the jet heat seeker, if you want to go unnoticed switch to something that doesnt lock/jam on its own ...

if i had a mech with ECM i would run around on JAM as long as possible and just switch to disturb when someone see me or let LRM's rain on me or a mech near by ...

[Homeless Bill]

If every 'mech could switch to passive sensors to avoid long-range detection, it wouldn't be so imbalanced. As it is, I'd never take an ECM-capable 'mech without ECM, and that, to me, is the very definition of unbalanced.

[Ozric]

Thank you for the command chair post, it's nice to know where we stand with ECM.

But with the Guardian ECM staying in its current form, does that mean this is it as far as electronic warfare is concerned? I've been kind of keeping my hopes up for a broader system.

[Royalewithcheese]

Byk, on 03 April 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Except there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Raven 3L chassis... What's wrong is that Streak SRM's are the most broken weapon in game by miles, and ECM does way too much for a 1.5 ton piece of equipment and negates an opponent's SSRM's from hitting them. The Raven 3L isn't the problem, it just so happens that you can outfit it with the two most broken pieces of equipment in game and that's what people do. That and the other two Raven variants have a 40kph slower max speed than *any* other light mech.

I agree with that. But I do think that it would be more interesting if the choice for lights was "slow/35 tons/ECM, fast/35 tons, fast/25 tons/ECM" than "fast/35 tons/ECM, or something that has only two of those things."

[AlexEss]

Ok here is my take on it.

In a pug it hardly matters.. it is a total toss of the dice if you win or not any way so blaming ECM is just to sooth the ego.

In organized play i have to ask... Why leave your team open to ECM. Practise some anti ECM tactics and play smart. That way ECM becomes a fairly much non issue.

And streaks... Honestly as soon as they tweak out that bad habit of them hitting center troso 98% of the time it is a pretty gimped weapon compared to... Any other missile weapon.

But again that is my honest personal opinion.

Edited by AlexEss, 03 April 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Deathlike]

shintakie, on 03 April 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Thats entirely not true. The Cicada ECM variant is far from the best variant. There's a choice involved in decidin if you want ECM or not when you pick a Cicada. Granted none of the other mechs with ECM make this choice, but you definitely have to there.

The 3L is the best variant when you don't factor in ECM. The Spider-5D is in the same boat. Commando-2D isn't not necessarily the best, but when you factor in the ECM+Streak synergy, the 2D is the best of the bunch.

The Cicada happens to be the "most balanced", outside of the poor 3C due to MG balance.

I'm not too sure about Atlases to make a decision, despite grinding through them.

Just remember that the Jenner-D was gonna get ECM in the first place. There's something wrong with that logic to begin with.

Thontor, on 03 April 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Disagree, I don't think the CDA-3M or AS7-D-DC are the best variants. The biggest reason the 3L is the best Raven is the speed.

The 3L has speed and well distributed hardpoints. It's practically immaculate.

[SirLANsalot]

the issue with ECM is not the module itself, but when used in conjunction with a certain weapon system.

The fact it denys locks is a good thing, but it needs to be able to do that to the mech it is ON as well. The issue is when an ECM mech can deny locks to an opposing light mech, that doesn't have ECM, and tear it to shreds with streaks. Case in point, a Raven or Commando comes across an enemy Jenner or Spider (yes the spider has it too but no missiles), the two mechs engage and the one with streaks will crush the other mech. Reason is, the other mech CANNOT return fire with its own streaks or hit very well with its own normal SRM's, leaving it with just the medium lasers it has and we all know how hard it is to keep on target...with or without state rewind.

That situation gets played out every day all across the game, even against heavier mechs. The solution is simple and one that just evens the playing field between two lights mechs, and the ECM mech vs a heavier mech.
If you have an ECM module on your mech, then you cannot use locking weapons. You can have them on your mech, and dumb fire them (LRM's) but you will be unable to gain a lock with them until the module itself is destroyed. Regardless of what mode the module is in, you will not be able to gain a lock. So if you have SSRM's you wont be able to shoot them at all until you lose your ECM, or change over to SRM2 or SRM4. This brings the "skill" back into the mechs themselves, and also evens out the playing field for ALL ECM mechs and all the other light mechs.

ECM will still be able to deny locks to enemy mechs near you, so nothing there changes, it still works as intended, but now you too cannot gain a lock either.

This is an answer to the issue of 1v1 combat (ECM vs normal) and 2v1 combat (2xECM vs 1ECM) the fact that "counter mode" only effects ECM in a 1:1 ratio. So another example is this. 2 Ravens vs 1 Raven, not only is this a bad fight to begin with, its compounded even more by the fact that the 1 Raven will not be able to use its own streaks at all during the fight, no matter how much counter he puts down.

TL;DR. If you have an ECM module on your mech at all, regardless of status (disrupt or counter) you will not be able to gain a lock with lockable weapons.

(all mechs are assumed to be there ECM variants when mentioned).

[Inkarnus]

well for me its ok and fair that lights can get ecm
but with anything at heavy and upwards size it is really hard too balance since this likely will lead alot too blobbing around ecm mechs and they arent in anyway easy to pressure mostly and as an example the Atlas-DDC with ECM is icing on the cake wich isnt really needed
i preferrable would like to see light mechs shielding there greater brothers or for reconissance patrols have it.
since the change of heatvision especially for a Commando because of his size is really good.
if he has camo you wont notice him at all except you are in Heatvision wich limits your viewrange .
else i find ecm pretty balanced since it can be disabled with your units carrying an ECM wich forces most players
to use a certain mech to stay competitive instead of having some dedicatet ECM lights wich hunt there counter parts or try too disrupt the enemy ecm

TLDR
only light and some med mechs get ecm
to make it more part of an addidtional choice in lance warfare
instead of making it mandatory to chose mechs like DDC

Edited by Inkarnus, 03 April 2013 - 02:19 PM.