1089 replies to this topic

[Peiper]

Augmenautus Rex, on 19 April 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

If it wasn't for ecm why would you ever need to take anything beyond an assault mech with lrms?

LRMs in their current state are not bad. The damage needs to be redistrubuted more randomly, and the devs agree and are working on it. If you got rid of ECM now, LRMs would not dominate the field, but they'd have a place where they have much less of a place now. Certainly, even now, they're more effective than artillery strikes WHEN you can actually attain a lock.

Yeah missiles have obviously been tough for the devs to balance out right, probably due to the crysis engine rather than talent. (See that devs, I actually have faith in you to do well, WHEN you are not busy trying to balance against FUBAR mechanics like ECM.) But, get rid of the ECM cloaking device and I really think the game will become far more interesting and varied. When ECM came out, missiles were out of control. Now they are not, but ECM is a FUBAR piece of equipment that no longer has a purpose other than causing grief.

[Augmenautus Rex]

Peiper, on 19 April 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

LRMs in their current state are not bad. The damage needs to be redistrubuted more randomly, and the devs agree and are working on it. If you got rid of ECM now, LRMs would not dominate the field, but they'd have a place where they have much less of a place now. Certainly, even now, they're more effective than artillery strikes WHEN you can actually attain a lock.

Yeah missiles have obviously been tough for the devs to balance out right, probably due to the crysis engine rather than talent. (See that devs, I actually have faith in you to do well, WHEN you are not busy trying to balance against FUBAR mechanics like ECM.) But, get rid of the ECM cloaking device and I really think the game will become far more interesting and varied. When ECM came out, missiles were out of control. Now they are not, but ECM is a FUBAR piece of equipment that no longer has a purpose other than causing grief.

That's pretty reasonable. Idk I have one mech in this game and it's a Raven 3L. When I bought it I didn't even know it was the electronic warfare variant I just reasoned it must be the best Raven since it costs twice as much as the other 2 in cbills. Maybe ECM needs to be removed from the game, but what do you replace it with so that ECM variants(not just ravens) don't just become worthless.

[Ravenspyre]

Augmenautus Rex, on 19 April 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

That's pretty reasonable. Idk I have one mech in this game and it's a Raven 3L. When I bought it I didn't even know it was the electronic warfare variant I just reasoned it must be the best Raven since it costs twice as much as the other 2 in cbills. Maybe ECM needs to be removed from the game, but what do you replace it with so that ECM variants(not just ravens) don't just become worthless.

Players developing real skills, using terrain and thinking smartly and tactically instead of just barreling straight into fire like they do now, something made easier thanks to ECM removing one of the things that encouraged this. And you know, you have a mech shutdown button for a reason which completely removes your target profile from enemy sensors. Taking cover and shutting down would remove your mech from in flight missiles and if you took cover instead of standing in the open, would either just plain miss you or hit terrain.

Edited by Accalia, 20 April 2013 - 12:09 AM.

[Jestun]

Interceptor12, on 18 April 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

The question I'm wondering is why is this here in the hot topic heatsink, and not in the game balance forum, especially considering this is regarding one of the largest and longest running balance debates in the game?

Because, like the 3rd person view, they have already decided regardless of what the forum (or game) community believes.

Edited by Jestun, 20 April 2013 - 12:30 AM.

[Critical Fumble]

Augmenautus Rex, on 19 April 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

That's pretty reasonable. Idk I have one mech in this game and it's a Raven 3L. When I bought it I didn't even know it was the electronic warfare variant I just reasoned it must be the best Raven since it costs twice as much as the other 2 in cbills. Maybe ECM needs to be removed from the game, but what do you replace it with so that ECM variants(not just ravens) don't just become worthless.

Really, there aren't any "weak" variants that have ECM. There are suboptimal mechs that have an ECM variant, but that variant is at least fair relative to the other variants. Case in point - I had a 3M prior to ECM. It was fun back then, not really "in style" because of the meta balance, but usable at least.

If you had seen the arrival of ECM, it was not that those mechs that received it were suddenly blessed with value and purpose, it was more that everything else became less valuable. For at least two weeks I did not see a single Jenner, and variety in general fell off dramatically. What you're seeing right now is the result of boredom - there are only so many times you can play the same mech without getting sick of it, which is what keeps their numbers down. However, if we ever get a more competitive system running (like what CW may be) you'll see a lot more of whatever is most effective in a weight class; which will mean a lot more ECM mechs, and a lot fewer non-ECM mechs of the same weight.

• TL:DR version: Consider if the value of ECM mechs is actually greater than other similar mechs, rather than balanced evenly.

[Peiper]

Augmenautus Rex, on 19 April 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

That's pretty reasonable. Idk I have one mech in this game and it's a Raven 3L. When I bought it I didn't even know it was the electronic warfare variant I just reasoned it must be the best Raven since it costs twice as much as the other 2 in cbills. Maybe ECM needs to be removed from the game, but what do you replace it with so that ECM variants(not just ravens) don't just become worthless.

When I argue for the removal of ECM, I mean remove it in it's current form. ECM, like the other electronics, should do what they do in tabletop. (ECM in this case blocks BAP, Artemis, C3-which includes TAG, and NARC, however, it does not prevent targetting and communication.) I would say, if they're going to create other pieces of electronic gear to add to their information warfare, they can make the new pieces of equipment for it. I've already (well, LOTS of people have) written a few threads with ideas, but I'll put a couple down here for you to consider, including a few new ones.

(This all presumes ECM, BAP, NARC, etc... are tuned to their tabletop purposes or similar.)

1. Jammer pods, fired from NARCS as alternate ammo. They stick to an enemy mech and blind it's sensors for a duration.

2. Tight Beam Electronic Scrambler. Used like a tag laser, while it's on the target it blinds their sensors.

3. Sensor bouy. Fired short range for a launcher like a grenade. Where it lands, it reveals all friendly and enemy mechs no matter what jamming they have ready.

4. Localized ECM/ECCM arrays. They could look like little radar dishes on the ground, and if you capture them (like capture points) they benefit you. If you leave, they go neutral over time, and can be captured by the opponent. Kind of like 'towers' in some games, they reveal enemies OR jam them. Things like the Sensor Bouy above could be fired to temorarely blind or negate their effects.

5. Seismic Sensor Arrays. These could be located at a home base. If you stand next to one, it will tight beam information to your mech and if you expand your map, it would show where anomalies are happening on the map. It wouldn't give you targetting information, just give you an idea where things are going on. Things like waterfalls, gysers, geologic fissures (volcanos, underground rivers).

6. Null Signature System. Just like tabletop, but if they insist on a cloaking device, then at least use one that already exists in canon even if it is a few decades off.

7. Area Cloaking Device vehicle. Instead of mounting ECM (as we know it now) to create an area cloaking device, why not make a vehicle that is either remote control, or follows around a mech. It will cloak the unit, and cost the mech controlling it tonnage for the control module. Unlike the current ECM, it could be knocked out as soon as it is seen. So a unit can still move around cloaked, but once the vehicle is trashed, their cloak is gone for all.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

The RVN-3L is a good light mech even without ECM ... You could argue that it's a nerfed JR7-D (one less energy hard point and the single-tube NARC missile hard point, and a slightly smaller max engine). You could also argue that, even without ECM, the SDR-5D and COM-2D are the best variants of those chassis

With ECM, however, it changes the game ... one RVN-3L (or SDR-5D or COM-2D) will affect a match much more than any Jenner with a similarly skilled pilot skills.

[Mystere]

Peiper, on 19 April 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Makes me wonder if all 47 of these pages has been spitting in the wind.

miSs, on 19 April 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

I just said we're still reading your feedback...

Here's what I think: PGI is mining the Hot Topic Heatsink threads for stuff that they did not think of or overlooked.

Edited by Mystere, 20 April 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[TaintedDoughnut]

Mystere, on 20 April 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

Here's what I think: PGI is mining the Hot Topic Heatsink threads for stuff that they did not think of or overlooked.

That's a nice thought but I think we have a higher chance of Unicorns riding in on rainbows than that being true. Again track record speaks for it's self the forums "are just this unimportant small percentage" and they brain scan every player through their monitor using some type of mystical art and those of us posting are all just sad little plebs beneath their notice.

[Mystere]

TaintedDoughnut, on 20 April 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

That's a nice thought but I think we have a higher chance of Unicorns riding in on rainbows than that being true. Again track record speaks for it's self the forums "are just this unimportant small percentage" and they brain scan every player through their monitor using some type of mystical art and those of us posting are all just sad little plebs beneath their notice.

Ah, but that's where you are sadly mistaken. Data mining tools are infinitely much easier to find, not to mention infinitely more useful, than a unicorn.

[DocBach]

uh, dude - unicorns can fly. Can datamining tools fly?

[Ravenspyre]

DocBach, on 20 April 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

uh, dude - unicorns can fly. Can datamining tools fly?

What? In what fantasy is that?

[Mystere]

DocBach, on 20 April 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

uh, dude - unicorns can fly. Can datamining tools fly?

Are you telling me that the Takeda would have won at Nagashino if they used unicorns? Then why did Katsuyori not use those during the battle? Better yet, why did his father Shingen not use them earlier while formulating his famed tactics? Japanese history could have turned out so much differently!

[Critical Fumble]

DocBach, on 20 April 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

uh, dude - unicorns can fly. Can datamining tools fly?

Depends on if you're asking a statistician or not.

They'd also say it dispenses cold beer on demand as well.

[Mynder]

Critical Fumble, on 20 April 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

They'd also say it dispenses cold beer on demand as well.

That's what my ECM does.

[Livewyr]

The analysis on those who voted, showed that the majority of votes came from a very narrow demographic of our player base. And while they represent some of core players, they did not necessarily represent the opinion of the general user base. The majority of our players never visit, post, or read the forum content, so the poll could be considered weighted in favour of a specific demographic. -Bryan

I think the best part about this whole thing.

Analysis of the vote revealed that it is a narrow "people with a voiced opinion" and therefore the "people with a voiced opinion" (no votes) represented a tiny portion of the whole: which by default (Because default is what we want) means that the majority of the population says "yes."

With that logic, the house always wins.

[Twisted Power]

Livewyr, on 22 April 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

The analysis on those who voted, showed that the majority of votes came from a very narrow demographic of our player base. And while they represent some of core players, they did not necessarily represent the opinion of the general user base. The majority of our players never visit, post, or read the forum content, so the poll could be considered weighted in favour of a specific demographic. -Bryan

I think the best part about this whole thing.

Analysis of the vote revealed that it is a narrow "people with a voiced opinion" and therefore the "people with a voiced opinion" (no votes) represented a tiny portion of the whole: which by default (Because default is what we want) means that the majority of the population says "yes."

With that logic, the house always wins.

Yes, Brian said "We will consider anybody who did not voice an opinion as automatically voted that they liked ECM."


If they really cared they would put the poll on the launcher. That way the people who don't visit the forums could voice their opinion.

Edited by Twisted Power, 22 April 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[Peiper]

Twisted Power, on 22 April 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Yes, Brian said "We will consider anybody who did not voice an opinion as automatically voted that they liked ECM."

If they really cared they would put the poll on the launcher. That way the people who don't visit the forums could voice their opinion.

I'd like to see this poll, and the results too.

[RJGatling]

Playing till premium is out until they fix this. I have better ways of spending my time and my money than on something that is arguably just as frustrating as it is enjoyable. I realize it's beta, but the official response thus far has failed to address the situation to any reasonable extent. PGI, you have made my wife much happier. I bet the devs didn't know they could make women happy!

[ShinVector]

Honestly since Sniper Wars and with the introduction of Ballistics HSR.

I am finding ECM Raven to be less of a factor in brawls. I have tagged a number of mediocore raven pilot with quad PPCs already.

The only problem I have is with Wipsy and his Rat (ECM Spider) fighting in a duo. (I had my revenge with a well planned jennerD+ecm cicada combo ambush.)