1089 replies to this topic

[Sturmforge]

I think that if ECM is not going to change one of 2 things should happen. Either Let all mechs equip it, or give BAP the ability to nullify it to some extent. Like if carrying SSRMs give the BAP carrying unit the ability to lock on with them like they can lock on to shut down mechs.

[zztophat]

Sturmforge, on 27 April 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

I think that if ECM is not going to change one of 2 things should happen. Either Let all mechs equip it, or give BAP the ability to nullify it to some extent. Like if carrying SSRMs give the BAP carrying unit the ability to lock on with them like they can lock on to shut down mechs.

Or again, TAG, but instead of the current worthless implementation, let the TAG actually counter ECM; when you tag a unit you can lock and fire on it regardless ECM coverage. The ECM should negate the bonus granted by TAG but it would not stop a weapons lock or firing, that fact that jamming could stop a laser guidance system doesn't even make sense.

[Sudden Reversal]

Can we get a fix for ECM already? This thing has been discussed to death.

It's obvious that not enough is going to be done, but please for the love of humanity - at least do something.

[Twisted Power]

I like how they changed the name of the forum topic section so new forum users won't be likely to click on a section called "comstar focus group" not knowing anything about comstar or that the dev are using that faction... Try to hide the ECM problem more. Lower the reading of this post and thus the post count. Then they will try and say people are happy with it because less people are voicing an opinion against it!

Edited by Twisted Power, 28 April 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[Dark Jackal]

I don't think people have to worry about the Cloak of Invisibility (technically called ECM) as when Community Warfare hits then maybe it will be looked at as it can and does Operationally effect teamwork in the game negatively effecting the performance of players at the individual level to corrdinate at the team level. In other words, I cannot expect people to know (or blame them) what is happening when things are invisibile to them and they only have LOS (Line of Sight) to go by. I also cannot explain experience to new players either.

[zztophat]

Indeed, once competitive play becomes the metric against which everything is judged ECM will get nerfed in to the ground, no question about it. I just wish I would be addressed before we need to have "pro" players as a measuring stick.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Dark Jackal, on 28 April 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

I don't think people have to worry about the Cloak of Invisibility (technically called ECM) as when Community Warfare hits then maybe it will be looked at as it can and does Operationally effect teamwork in the game negatively effecting the performance of players at the individual level to corrdinate at the team level. In other words, I cannot expect people to know (or blame them) what is happening when things are invisibile to them and they only have LOS (Line of Sight) to go by. I also cannot explain experience to new players either.

I just wish theyd use the Timeline. Theres not supposed to be widely available Angel ECM till well after 3053. Its developed by DCMS in 3053.

[Livewyr]

ShinVector, on 23 April 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

<snipped several pieces for space>

I can only agree that LRMs are the ones that are WEAK at moment.
When you say missiles, do you mean easy mode LRMs ?


Try upping your skills on the non-easy mode weapons people.

Ok.. lately I've just been in lurker mode on the forums (as I generally don't care what PGI does because it doesn't matter if we care what PGI does.)

However: I'm going to pick apart your ridiculous assertion regarding "easy mode."

By "easy mode" i can assume you mean "minimal requirement." (That being the closest relative definition of ease.)


Requirements of shooting a laser weapon:
1. Point at mech.
2.Click
3.Hold reticle on mech for about 1 second or less.
4.Profit.

Requirements of shooting a ballistic weapon:
1. Point at mech.
2. Adjust for travel time (lead) if mech is moving.
3. Click.
4. Profit.


Requirements of using LRMs on non-ECM target without a spotter:
1. Point at mech (long enough to achieve lock).
2. Determine if your missiles have clear flight path.
3. Determine if target mech can easily get behind cover based on flight time. (Longer the distance, the more time they get.)
4. If steps 2 and 3 are go: Click.
5. Maintain visual lock (reticle on target) for 2-7 seconds during missile flight time. (Pray a little bit because now they have warning.)
6. If step 5 worked out: Profit.

Requirements of using LRMS on target without ECM, without Line of Sight:
1. Wait for radar signature:
2. (Attempt to predict if the signature will last long enough for flight time.)
3: Attempt to divine if the flight path is clear, and the target will not be able to get to cover.
4: If 1, 2, and 3, seem like good odds and are "go": Click.
5: Hold reticle on red box and internally count to 8- if you get to 8 and have no hit marker, Start from 2: If you lost target, start from 1.
6: If all successful: Profit.

Requirements of using LRMs with LoS on ECM target:
1: Point TAG laser at mech and wait for lock.
2: Steps 2 and 3 from non ECM target)
3: (If steps from 2 are go): Maintain TAG laser on target and Click.
4: Maintain TAG laser on target for 3-7 seconds.
5: Profit.

Requirements of using LRMs without LoS on ECM target:
1: Hope friendly with TAG is willing to help you (and can do steps 1 and 4)
2: If not.. N/A.

------------------------------------------
You tell me: which is easy mode?

Quit perpetuating the stupid stereo type given by twitch shooters...

[hammerreborn]

Hey I can add/subtract a bunch of steps too!

To use medium lasers:
1) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs
2) Run fast
3) Hide
4) Jump over hiding spot
5) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs
6) Get behind cover again
7) Retreat from cover
8) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs
9) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge more PPCs
11) Notice you still have 600m to go
12) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs
13) Get within 540 meters
14) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs while aiming at target
15) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs while firing at target
16) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs while retaining crosshair at target for duration
17) Realize that they need to hit you once to kill you and you have to hit them at least 5 times with full center torso <270m blasts
18) Die a little on the inside
19) Die a little on the outside as while doing 18) you forgot Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge those PPCs


To fire LRMs:
1) Watch light mech do steps above
2) Target their target
3) Hover over target while behind cover
4) Click

Edited by hammerreborn, 29 April 2013 - 09:05 AM.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

Hey I can add/subtract a bunch of steps too!

To use medium lasers:
1) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs
2) Run fast
3) Hide
4) Jump over hiding spot
5) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs
6) Get behind cover again
7) Retreat from cover
8) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs
9) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge more PPCs
11) Notice you still have 600m to go
12) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs
13) Get within 540 meters
14) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs while aiming at target
15) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs while firing at target
16) Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge PPCs while retaining crosshair at target for duration
17) Realize that they need to hit you once to kill you and you have to hit them at least 5 times with full center torso <270m blasts
18) Die a little on the inside
19) Die a little on the outside as while doing 18) you forgot Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge those PPCs


To fire LRMs:
1) Watch light mech do steps above
2) Target their target
3) Hover over target while behind cover
4) Click

I told it to view anyways (ignored) and it seems I never learn...

Hammer..

You're trying to compare short range weapons to long range weapons and you have successfully identified the advantage of a long range weapon over a short range weapon..

Congratulations.
Now: please stop..

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 29 April 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

I told it to view anyways (ignored) and it seems I never learn...

Hammer..

You're trying to compare short range weapons to long range weapons and you have successfully identified the advantage of a long range weapon over a short range weapon..

Congratulations.
Now: please stop..

Livewyr

You're trying to compare indirect fire long range weapons to shot and long range direct fire weapons and you have unsuccessfully identified the advantage of an indirect fire weapon over a direct fire one.

Congratulations.
Now: please stop..

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Livewyr

You're trying to compare indirect fire long range weapons to shot and long range direct fire weapons and you have unsuccessfully identified the advantage of an indirect fire weapon over a direct fire one.

Congratulations.
Now: please stop..

Did it again...

Going to let you in on a little secret: The whole thing was a comparison of the ease-of-use between Indirect-fire long range weapons, and direct-fire long range weapons..

I have not identified an overall advantage to either weapon, because both have advantages and disadvantages.. however, direct fire weapons are easier to use by far and that argument, I've successfully made, and you've successfully missed, or supported.

Round 3? I have a while..go ahead.

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 29 April 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Did it again...

Going to let you in on a little secret: The whole thing was a comparison of the ease-of-use between Indirect-fire long range weapons, and direct-fire long range weapons..

I have not identified an overall advantage to either weapon, because both have advantages and disadvantages.. however, direct fire weapons are easier to use by far and that argument, I've successfully made, and you've successfully missed, or supported.

Round 3? I have a while..go ahead.

Direct fire weapons are not easier to use, because they require you to maneuver or be killed. Indirect fire weapons are easier to use, but are not as powerful as direct fire weapons.

But lets face it, every weapon in this game is get within range, point at target, and click.

And the only argument you've ever successfully made is how you have no clue how to play this game.

ADAPT OR CRY!

Edited by hammerreborn, 29 April 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Direct fire weapons are not easier to use, because they require you to maneuver or be killed. Indirect fire weapons are easier to use, but are not as powerful as direct fire weapons.

But lets face it, every weapon in this game is get within range, point at target, and click.

You can only think of one focus point at a time it seems..

There are two ways to use LRMs.
The more reliable way- targeting for yourself: which involves: "they require you to maneuver or be killed" (while maintaining lock)

And the less reliable, but protected, way- having someone else targeting: which involves "having someone else willing to help you" (who also has to maintain lock so you can maintain lock)

EDIT: On top of that, you still have to determine if you can hit the target-----


Try thinking about more than one thing at a time... after all this [was] a thinking man's shooter.




[EDIT #2 in response to your conceding edit.]
-------------------------------------

*chuckle*

Edited by Livewyr, 29 April 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[zztophat]

I still see LRMs, even in their current state.

Thing is, i rarely get hit by them. It's not because I posses some transcendent skill, it's because when you fire them from max range they take somewhere between 3 weeks to 8 years to reach the target. That is plenty of time to find cover, go make a sandwich and pay a few bills.

I found when I use them, they rarely ever connect when fired from near max range indirectly. In order to get consistent hits with them I have no choice but to fire them with line of sight only. When using them like that I guess you can call it easy... if by that you mean as easy as any other direct fire weapon.


EDIT: and just to stay on the topic of ECM: there are currently no other weapons systems that are rendered impossible to use by a mech carried system. Lasers, Ballistics and PPCs can still be used regardless of the systems carried by an enemy mech. LRMs are hard countered, at least in the "easy" indirect mode you mentioned, when ECM is present, you must TAG, which is a tonnage, skill and hardpoint requirement.

Edited by zztophat, 29 April 2013 - 09:53 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 29 April 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

You can only think of one focus point at a time it seems..

There are two ways to use LRMs.
The more reliable way- targeting for yourself: which involves: "they require you to maneuver or be killed" (while maintaining lock)

As easy as every other weapon. Unless you're now calling streaks hard mode weapons in which every person in this game is now laughing at you.

Quote

And the less reliable, but protected, way- having someone else targeting: which involves "having someone else willing to help you" (who also has to maintain lock so you can maintain lock)

Which puts all the effort in the targeter, who is using direct fire weapons, removing all "skill" from the LRM boat in question. So you've now argued that being a spotter is actually the hardest skill in the game.

Quote

EDIT: On top of that, you still have to determine if you can hit the target-----

Which everyone has to do....

Quote

Try thinking about more than one thing at a time... after all this [was] a thinking man's shooter.

I do. My wife, my house, my job, my stunning good looks, how bad you are at arguing that LRMs require any modicum of skill. These are all things I think about.

[Livewyr]

And here I thought you gave up.. (Thanks for coming back.)

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

As easy as every other weapon. Unless you're now calling streaks hard mode weapons in which every person in this game is now laughing at you.

(Said nothing of streaks, try and focus.)
Everyone reading your posts knows that you know you've already lost.. you're resorting to base insults.

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Which puts all the effort in the targeter, who is using direct fire weapons, removing all "skill" from the LRM boat in question. So you've now argued that being a spotter is actually the hardest skill in the game.

The one with the LRMs still has to determine whether their missiles will reach the target: (Flight path clearance)
Both have to do everything else while maintaining locks.

You must start thinking of "skill" as something that involves thinking as well. (IMO it takes no skill to put your reticle on the target, outside of precision motor control.)

Thinking is part of skill.

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Which everyone has to do....

Yes, but only LRMs have to determine if they're going to hit the target 3-7 seconds in the future...

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

I do. My wife, my house, my job, my stunning good looks, how bad you are at arguing that LRMs require any modicum of skill. These are all things I think about.

Oh I know, you probably do think about those things (regardless of whether they're true or not)

But you're only thinking in 1 angle...completely ignoring everything else.

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 29 April 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

And here I thought you gave up.. (Thanks for coming back.)

(Said nothing of streaks, try and focus.)

Quote

The more reliable way- targeting for yourself: which involves: "they require you to maneuver or be killed" (while maintaining lock)

If "while maintaining lock" is what you're arguing is the distinguishing factor between direct fire weapons and LRMs...then yes, you just said streaks are hard.

Quote

Everyone reading your posts knows that you know you've already lost.. you're resorting to base insults.

Which ones, the ones where you say I can't think about more than one thing at once?

Quote

The one with the LRMs still has to determine whether their missiles will reach the target: (Flight path clearance)
Both have to do everything else while maintaining locks.

How is determining if your missiles will reach the target any different than a sniper that has to judge lead times, or a laser boat on how long and how fast he has to drag to inflict maximum damage to a particular location? Maintaining locks is a joke, and once again you're arguing that using streaks is hard.

Quote

You must start thinking of "skill" as something that involves thinking as well. (IMO it takes no skill to put your reticle on the target, outside of precision motor control.)

Thinking is part of skill.

There is no thinking involved in any weapon system in this game. You think LRMs are far more complicated than they really are. They are just as point and shoot as everything else.

Quote

Yes, but only LRMs have to determine if they're going to hit the target 3-7 seconds in the future...

You don't have to determine anything, the tracking system does all that for you. Hell, even from behind fire you can just fire all day until you see if your cursor turns red or not. Turns red, you hit! You sunk their battleship!

Quote

But you're only thinking in 1 angle...completely ignoring everything else.

And what angle is that?

Edited by hammerreborn, 29 April 2013 - 10:27 AM.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

1:
If "while maintaining lock" is what you're arguing is the distinguishing factor between direct fire weapons and LRMs...then yes, you just said streaks are hard.

No, with streaks you need to maintain lock less than a second, because they take less than a second to hit your target. That's not difficult at all. Those are streaks, and I am not talking about streaks.

Maintaining lock for several seconds is more difficult. Those are LRMs, and those are what i am talking about.

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

2:
Which ones, the ones where you say I can't think about more than one thing at once?

I said can't "seem" to think about more than one thing at once, and thus far it is accurate- i'll explain in answering your last question.

(As compared to stupid assertions like someone having no clue how to play the game..)

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

3:
How is determining if your missiles will reach the target any different than a sniper that has to judge lead times, or a laser boat on how long and how fast he has to drag to inflict maximum damage to a particular location? Maintaining locks is a joke, and once again you're arguing that using streaks is hard.

How is it different? Let me break it down for you:
With ballistics and lasers, the farthest in the future that you have to think about is about 1 second. You click, 1 second later the deed is done, successfully or not.

With Missiles, you have to think several seconds in the future. Before you click, you need to be relatively sure the enemy cannot easily escape behind cover, and that you're not going to lose the target LoS in the next 3-7 seconds.
You click, and 3-7 determines whether you are successful or not.

Analogy:
Right now: You see a car traveling down a city street at a nice inner city cruising speed of 30 mph. This car is heading toward a 4-way intersection 50 feet away.

1 second from Right now: That car is (almost definitely) roughly 45 feet in front of where it was at "Right now" and stopping at the stop sign.

3 seconds from Right now: That car is either going straight, or is making a left or right turn.

7 seconds from Right now: That car has gone straight, or made a left or right turn.

At right now: it's pretty easy to determine what the car is doing in one second.
Knowing (at right now) what it is going to do in 3-7 seconds is much more difficult if not impossible.

Does that make it a little easier to understand?

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

4:
There is no thinking involved in any weapon system in this game. You think LRMs are far more complicated than they really are. They are just as point and shoot as everything else.

This is where I would say you never use them. (And you don't, you only really drive Jenners..)
Reread the process that goes into firing an LRM.. (LoS, time to target, target cover options, target warning, etc...those are all things that have to be thought about, before you even fire if you are not going to waste the ammo.)

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

5:
You don't have to determine anything, the tracking system does all that for you. Hell, even from behind fire you can just fire all day until you see if your cursor turns red or not. Turns red, you hit! You sunk their battleship!

You're wrong, you couldn't be more wrong: The missiles do not tell you before hand if they are going to hit a building, or terrain on the way to the target, you need to figure that out yourself.

It is not as simple as direct-fire weapons... just because you can see the target now, does not mean you'll see the target by the time the missiles arrive.

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

And what angle is that?

I've numbered them in the quotes for easy reference:
This is what Hammer was thinking-
1: "He said maintaining lock, streaks have to maintain locks too, therefore he's talking about streaks too.
(Even though streaks are short range have a very short travel time and not applicable on both counts.)

2: "He insulted me too.."
(Paying no attention that I made an observation which I am backing up right now, not a baseless claim.)

3: "They both have to think ahead."
(Ignoring that one is immediate and intuitive, and the other is based on odds and foresight.)

4: Honestly, the only thing I can think of for this one, is that you either don't know how to identify thought, or you have never actually used missiles.

5: Same here.

---------------------------------------------
Start thinking of things from multiple angles (or Points of View). You would be much better off.

[StalaggtIKE]

So any update on the proposed ECM hardpoints? Or will this take another 2 months to decide on as well?