1089 replies to this topic

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 29 April 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

No, with streaks you need to maintain lock less than a second, because they take less than a second to hit your target. That's not difficult at all. Those are streaks, and I am not talking about streaks.

Maintaining lock for several seconds is more difficult. Those are LRMs, and those are what i am talking about.

Maintaining lock is trivial, no matter how long, pointing in a 45 degree arc of a target is trivial, especially from behind cover. A raven with streaks will generally maintain lock on his target longer than even an LRM boat because lost lock = lost damage due to the high recycle time of streaks.

Quote

How is it different? Let me break it down for you:
With ballistics and lasers, the farthest in the future that you have to think about is about 1 second. You click, 1 second later the deed is done, successfully or not.

With Missiles, you have to think several seconds in the future. Before you click, you need to be relatively sure the enemy cannot easily escape behind cover, and that you're not going to lose the target LoS in the next 3-7 seconds.
You click, and 3-7 determines whether you are successful or not.

So you're still clicking, and it's still easy. Travel time is just as difficult guessing 1 second as it is 3-7.

Ballistics also don't chase their targets, which makes it harder to aim them than LRMs.

Quote

Analogy:
Right now: You see a car traveling down a city street at a nice inner city cruising speed of 30 mph. This car is heading toward a 4-way intersection 50 feet away.

1 second from Right now: That car is (almost definitely) roughly 45 feet in front of where it was at "Right now" and stopping at the stop sign.

3 seconds from Right now: That car is either going straight, or is making a left or right turn.

7 seconds from Right now: That car has gone straight, or made a left or right turn.

At right now: it's pretty easy to determine what the car is doing in one second.
Knowing (at right now) what it is going to do in 3-7 seconds is much more difficult if not impossible.

Does that make it a little easier to understand?

Your analogy sucks. Who cares where the mech is going to be in 3-7 seconds when your missiles ARE HOMING. They aren't guided, they aren't SRMs that fire basically in a straight line. They home in. They figure out where the target is in 3-7 seconds and follow.

This isn't the BFD in unreal which is a slow missile of death heading towards a target. It's a damn homing missile that requires the other person to do all the work. Once again, all the LRM user has to do is aim and click. The spotter has to dodge fire and keep the lock, and the target has to figure out where the missiles are coming from and react accordingly, both which require "skill" and "thinking" to do. Firing LRMs requires neither. Throwing 1200 LRMs in the sky requires no work or effort on the users part.

Quote

This is where I would say you never use them. (And you don't, you only really drive Jenners..)
Reread the process that goes into firing an LRM.. (LoS, time to target, target cover options, target warning, etc...those are all things that have to be thought about, before you even fire if you are not going to waste the ammo.)

My LRM catapult (C1) is the mech with my highest KD ratio for any mech played over 10 games since new tracking. It also has the highest overall win rate. (2.29 and 1.71, respectively).

As for your process:
Los: doesn't matter, can fire irregardless
Time to Target: doesn't matter, homing
Target Cover Options: doesn't matter, homing, and is entirely on their end to use cover appropiately.
Target Warning: uh...this isn't a step

So...none of those things have to be thought about. The user has to point and click, and the missiles do all the work for them. If they don't hit, stop firing! If they do hit, keep firing! You know, like every other weapon in this game.

Quote

You're wrong, you couldn't be more wrong: The missiles do not tell you before hand if they are going to hit a building, or terrain on the way to the target, you need to figure that out yourself.

Yes, but looking at your HUD and seeing a red crosshair or the dudes doll being damaged.

Quote

It is not as simple as direct-fire weapons... just because you can see the target now, does not mean you'll see the target by the time the missiles arrive.

So? You don't NEED TO SEE THEM. That;s the beauty of LRMs.

Quote

1: "He said maintaining lock, streaks have to maintain locks too, therefore he's talking about streaks too.
(Even though streaks are short range have a very short travel time and not applicable on both counts.)

Uh...you didn't mention range or travel time, just maintaining locks. Not my fault you can't make a proper argument.

Quote

3: "They both have to think ahead."
(Ignoring that one is immediate and intuitive, and the other is based on odds and foresight.)

Homing takes care of all travel time predictions

Quote

4: Honestly, the only thing I can think of for this one, is that you either don't know how to identify thought, or you have never actually used missiles.

I do know how to identify thought, and I've used missiles. They're as hilariously easy as every other weapon in this game.

Quote

Start thinking of things from multiple angles (or Points of View). You would be much better off.

I do, you think all the attention needs to be made by the LRM user, when really the target and the spotter are the ones doing all the work.

Edited by hammerreborn, 29 April 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Livewyr]

You baffle me:

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Maintaining lock is trivial, no matter how long, pointing in a 45 degree arc of a target is trivial, especially from behind cover. A raven with streaks will generally maintain lock on his target longer than even an LRM boat because lost lock = lost damage due to the high recycle time of streaks.

You're wrong:
Maintaining a lock is not trivial, when you have to do other things.. like watch where you're going if you're not walking straight ahead.



So you're still clicking, and it's still easy. Travel time is just as difficult guessing 1 second as it is 3-7.

You're wrong: see original analogy: I could tell where the car was going to be in 1 second, if it is just as easy, can you tell me where the car would be in 3 or 7 seconds? (Answer: no you cannot.)


Ballistics also don't chase their targets, which makes it harder to aim them than LRMs.

You're wrong: Ballistics don't chase their targets, they don't need to, they don't take much time to get to the target.

Your analogy sucks. Who cares where the mech is going to be in 3-7 seconds when your missiles ARE HOMING. They aren't guided, they aren't SRMs that fire basically in a straight line. They home in. They figure out where the target is in 3-7 seconds and follow.

This isn't the BFD in unreal which is a slow missile of death heading towards a target. It's a damn homing missile that requires the other person to do all the work. Once again, all the LRM user has to do is aim and click. The spotter has to dodge fire and keep the lock, and the target has to figure out where the missiles are coming from and react accordingly, both which require "skill" and "thinking" to do. Firing LRMs requires neither. Throwing 1200 LRMs in the sky requires no work or effort on the users part.


You're wrong: Since I apparently need to make the analogy painfully simple and obvious in its implications:

Take the original analogy, and make the right turn go behind some buildings. Suddenly it matters which direction the car goes.


My LRM catapult (C1) is the mech with my highest KD ratio for any mech played over 10 games since new tracking. It also has the highest overall win rate. (2.29 and 1.71, respectively).

As for your process:
Los: doesn't matter, can fire irregardless
Time to Target: doesn't matter, homing
Target Cover Options: doesn't matter, homing, and is entirely on their end to use cover appropiately.
Target Warning: uh...this isn't a step

You're wrong:
Missiles can't fire with any accuracy without lock.
Time to target does matter, homing doesn't go through cover.
Target cover options do matter, homing (missile) doesn't go through cover.

Target Warning isn't a step, Target warning is a big part of the reason you need the steps.

So...none of those things have to be thought about. The user has to point and click, and the missiles do all the work for them. If they don't hit, stop firing! If they do hit, keep firing! You know, like every other weapon in this game.


You're wrong:
Firing regardless of whether they are going hit or not is a waste of heat and ammo. That would be equivalent to trying to shoot the mech on the other side of a building with a PPC.. that would just be stupid.


Yes, but looking at your HUD and seeing a red crosshair or the dudes doll being damaged.

You're wrong:
That happens WHEN they hit (or don't hit) not before. At least read the sentence.

So? You don't NEED TO SEE THEM. That;s the beauty of LRMs.


You're wrong:
Someone needs to see them to maintain lock, whether it's you, or the person spotting for you. If the target is unseen, or becomes unseen during flight, the missiles cannot hit.


Uh...you didn't mention range or travel time, just maintaining locks. Not my fault you can't make a proper argument.

You're not necessarily wrong, in the future I will make statements perfectly obvious as though I were talking to a six year old.

Homing takes care of all travel time predictions

You're wrong:
Homing does not deal with travel time vs target achieving cover.

I do know how to identify thought, and I've used missiles. They're as hilariously easy as every other weapon in this game.

You're wrong: You do not know how to identify thought, or you would realize that they're not as easy as every other weapon. I just spent several posts explaining to you the thought involved and complexity with using missiles.


I do, you think all the attention needs to be made by the LRM user, when really the target and the spotter are the ones doing all the work.

You're wrong:
The LRM user still needs to determine whether his missiles will hit the target or whether it would be a waste to shoot at them.

Well.. looks like you are wrong on all but 1 count. I will rectify that count in future posts.

[hammerreborn]

Saying "you're wrong" doesn't make it so. Nothing you listed in any of your terrible arguments seperates LRMs from any other weapon system.

"Locking is hard because you are doing other things too"

So does someone using direct fire weapons, except they can't be off by 45 degrees to still be able to fire. Point direct fire.

"My analogy doesn't suck, a car can go behind a building"

Ya, and it could do that in the next second too, or it could shoot you in the face, or make a sharp u-turn, or go left, or go right. Lights move fast, any light being predictable for even a second is a dead light.

So, to reiterate, your analogy still sucks.

"My process is right"

No, your process is crap. All weapons can't fire accurately without "lock" or "aiming". Once again you've argued streaks are hard.

Last time I checked bullets/lasers don't go through cover either.


"Firing and missing wastes ammo and heat!"

So does every other weapon.

"The crosshair only glows after the weapons hit..."

Ya...no ****. Same with every other weapon.

"BUT IM RIGHT, WHAAAAAAHHH LRMS ARE HARDMODE"

No, they're a joke like every other weapon. And if I'm so lacking in thought, my best mech wouldn't be an LRM boat, since apparently they take SOOOO much thought and skill.

Edited by hammerreborn, 29 April 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[Dark Jackal]

Guys, we're talking about the Cloak of Invisibility (also called " ECM "), not whether or not we're returning to the Cloak of Wretchedness and Despair (also called LRM overkill).

[hammerreborn]

Dark Jackal, on 29 April 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Guys, we're talking about the Cloak of Invisibility (also called " ECM "), not whether or not we're returning to the Cloak of Wretchedness and Despair (also called LRM overkill).

You need to learn the definition of invisibility.

[Twisted Power]

Well I started to read the giant rage fight (because I do love me some rage fights and can/will participate) but then it was too long and I drank too much. So I will say this to end all!!!!

Buffing and changing LRMS in anyway does not change the fact that it is ECM that is broken and these other mechanics will never function properly until ECM is changed. Fix the problem don't Band-Aid for a solution! Cause that sh't don't work.

Edited by Twisted Power, 29 April 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

<laughable comments I could (yet again) tear apart>

I'm done with you. (You are either too dense, or just that desperate.)

[Homeless Bill]

I heard ECM was pretty OP. You should fix that.

Or just give me passive sensors.

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 29 April 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

I'm done with you. (You are either too dense, or just that desperate.)

You're the one who keeps talking like LRMs require super awesome skillz and not a simple left mouse button click.

It's a FPS, not a flight simulator, nothing is difficult..

[Solis Obscuri]

hammerreborn, on 29 April 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

You're the one who keeps talking like LRMs require super awesome skillz and not a simple left mouse button click.

It's a FPS, not a flight simulator, nothing is difficult..

I find it interesting to see, with stats now available, just how few LRMs actually find their way to a target. Even taking fairly careful shots they have about half the accuracy rate of by next-lowest hit rate weapons (spraytastic SRMs), and far lower accuracy than autocannons, lasers or PPCs, even when I'm being fairly lax about taking potshots with those. Even holding TAG on target doesn't seem to help very much.

It would seem that at the best of times, using LRMs means consigning yourself to the RNG gods and hoping for a completely oblivious opponent, and that at the worst of times, using LRMs means consigning yourself to the RNG gods and hoping for a completely oblivious opponent. Allowing some sort of manual guidance override for LRMs would actually make them much more viable as a weapon, though it could possibly get a bit too powerful once people started getting proficient at pathing their missiles onto distant targets.

[hammerreborn]

Solis Obscuri, on 29 April 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

I find it interesting to see, with stats now available, just how few LRMs actually find their way to a target. Even taking fairly careful shots they have about half the accuracy rate of by next-lowest hit rate weapons (spraytastic SRMs), and far lower accuracy than autocannons, lasers or PPCs, even when I'm being fairly lax about taking potshots with those. Even holding TAG on target doesn't seem to help very much.

It would seem that at the best of times, using LRMs means consigning yourself to the RNG gods and hoping for a completely oblivious opponent, and that at the worst of times, using LRMs means consigning yourself to the RNG gods and hoping for a completely oblivious opponent. Allowing some sort of manual guidance override for LRMs would actually make them much more viable as a weapon, though it could possibly get a bit too powerful once people started getting proficient at pathing their missiles onto distant targets.

You can sorta mess with the trajectory by locking, losing and re-acquiring sometimes. It's kinda fun to bank LRMs by doing that. You can also clear most cover issues by jumping prior to launch to get them at maximum height.

And their accuracy is screwy because its the only weapon that fires 5, 10, 15, or 20 rounds a shot, and fires in waves. The first might hit but the third wave might not. LRMs are also the only weapon that can be shot out of the sky, which also lowers accuracy.

Still doesn't change the fact that LRMs are point and click just like every other weapon.

All direct fire weapons also require your opponent to be "oblivious". A light squirreling and juking is a far harder target to miss than one who is oblivious. Case in point, in alpine I had 5-6 ppc mechs shooting at me from the top of the mountain line while I ran around their base for 3 minutes before enough finally hit me to break my leg and then my torso. If any of them had LRMs I would have had to stop behind cover where the snipers on my side would have ripped me to shreds, or keep running and hope I can "dodge" the missiles as well.

Imanman, on 30 April 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

And you're the one asking for a massive pile of in game assets and gameplay development to be thrown out rather than fixed and reincorporated because you prefer a different weapon. Who's being constructive?

WTF AM I READING!????

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 30 April 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

WTF, AM I READING!????

Fixed.

[Twisted Power]

I wanted to comment about the hit rate of LRMS. The reason is that they have not been "state-rewound" yet. I have many videos of my missiles hitting moving targets on my screen but not registering damage. I believe they stated that they are going to increase missiles speed and that missiles are the next thing to get state rewind. This should increase hit rate %.

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 30 April 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Fixed.

You show me where I said "massive pile of in game assets and gameplay development to be thrown out rather than fixed and reincorporated because you prefer a different weapon".

But of course you won't.

Also, nice alt. Get banned for a day?

Edited by hammerreborn, 30 April 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

StalaggtIKE, on 29 April 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

So any update on the proposed ECM hardpoints? Or will this take another 2 months to decide on as well?

[Dark Jackal]

Guys, just some advice, please don't respond to someone that takes personally forum posts when it is the devs you should be wording your feedback to. Just jedi-hand wave "these aren't the droids you're looking for" and move along.

Edited by Dark Jackal, 30 April 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[Livewyr]

Dark Jackal, on 30 April 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Guys, just some advice, please don't respond to someone that takes personally forum posts when it is the devs you should be wording your feedback to. Just jedi-hand wave "these aren't the droids you're looking for" and move along.

Was that advice? Or a request?

<discuss>


Discussing the final position of PGI regarding ECM is just as effective as discussing it before the final decision..therefore we should discuss this "advice."
-----
(And hammer, that wasn't an alt.)

[hammerreborn]

Imanman, on 30 April 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

deleted

Seriously, anyone want to translate this gibberish to me? I'd give it a go but then I'd probably end up in trouble with the devs again.

And what kind of BT discussion are you having that you have a total of 3 posts, two of them direct attacks at me?

[Dark Jackal]

Livewyr, on 30 April 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

Was that advice? Or a request?

<discuss>


Discussing the final position of PGI regarding ECM is just as effective as discussing it before the final decision..therefore we should discuss this "advice."
-----
(And hammer, that wasn't an alt.)

Advice with a healthy dose of Politeness (the please part).

As my counterparts in Bangalore would say, Please do the needful and action same.

Thank you.

[Livewyr]

Dark Jackal, on 30 April 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Advice with a healthy dose of Politeness (the please part).

As my counterparts in Bangalore would say, Please do the needful and action same.

Thank you.

This must be a cultural thing;

Usually when someone (at least where I am) puts an action in the form of a question or involving "please," it is considered a request..in in the case of asking someone to do the right thing.

(Advice, I would think, would involve "You should..." or "It would be wise to..." or something like that.)

(I'm not trying to insult or offend, just trying to make conversation about something that matters more than our opinions regarding ECM)