1089 replies to this topic

[OneEyed Jack]

FupDup, on 03 April 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

2. The user of ECM should not be able to get missile locks while they are in disrupt mode (it's powerful enough to disrupt you if it can disrupt 8 enemy battlemechs). This means they would have to risk making themselves vulnerable to enemy lock-on missiles if they want to use their own lock-on missiles (risk versus reward).

*sigh*

It's not about power, FFS. ECM works by sending out a scrambling signal. If you know the signal involved, you can program your sensors to ignore it. ECM scrambling your own electronics is moronic.

[WardenWolf]

I would *really* encourage the Devs to reconsider the far-reaching effects of ECM. Specifically, the lack of ability to call targets. It is still somewhat doable when using voice comms, like TeamSpeak, but in a pug match with typing only it is impossible to quickly coordinate fire without the ability to use callsigns.

If you really want LRMs and SSRMs to be completely blocked by ECM (short of TAG / Counter ECM / PPCs) that is one thing, but please don't completely wipe out targeting / coordination along with it.

[FrostCollar]

Well, unfortunately it seems one of my most sincere hopes in the game will not be implemented - ECM will continue to be required on all mechs that can carry it. Thus the primary thing I was hoping ECM changes would do, that they would make ECM capable mechs without ECM a viable choice, is gone. I had hoped that ECM might interfere with SSRMs on the mech that carries them, but that will never be.

The secondary thing I wanted from ECM changes was that variants without ECM would be viable compared to their ECM carrying brothers, seems to be coming in quirk nerfs and nothing more. We've seen it with the Cicada and Garth's mention that the other Raven variants might be getting a buff implies to me that the same thing is coming for the 3L. Mechs like the 3L are powerful, yes, but I really wish this wasn't the way the change would happen.

I was one of the people that supported the "ECM should not cut out friendly signatures on the battlefield. Friendly Mechs should always be identifiable and not obscure team play" suggestion, and I'm glad it was put in. It should make ECM less frustrating to deal with for new players, but not much less frustrating.

Ultimately, I'm disappointed. After the whole song and dance about ECM changes in that thread, ultimately nothing significant will be done and the party line, "working as intended/plenty of counters," is unchanged. I can't help but wonder - what was the point? The CC post even included lines like "The Raven 3L required the ECM/BAP systems as they were the main functionality of the variant" that are just plain wrong. Show me a 3L with a BAP and you'll be showing me a bad 3L. I dropped mine for leg armor and never looked back. Anything it can do modules can do for free, and the 3L had module slots to spare.

Anyways, who suggested "ECM should have a dedicated hardpoint (tonnage/space does not change). That way ECM will always be in a known location on a Mech and can be directly targeted by attackers"? In all my games I've played, I've seen ECM units destroyed prior to death only two times, both of which after its health was reduced. In both cases the Raven in question was already close to death (and in one of the two cases I was the one piloting it ). The fact is that this won't change much for the same reason the crit buff for MGs and other weapons was ineffective: destroying components requires the destruction of the armor on that section first, and once that's done it's easier to just destroy the section. The ECM hardpoint will certainly be in one of the torso sections, and that's usually where an ECM unit is anyways. Perhaps this will make ECMs destroyed more often, but I don't see the increase as being very significant.

I had such hopes too.

[shintakie]

Vassago Rain, on 03 April 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Which has a lot more to do with the triple missile slot for rocketpunch than ECM, and before brawling and ECM were even a thing, you could artemis lurm farm in the ghetto.

So...

Which makes me wonder why the D-DC was the Atlas that got ECM in the first place.

As I said earlier. Why do the best variants of every chassis (minus Cicadas) also get ECM to stack the deck in their favor? Why doesn't the 5K Spider have ECM? Its only "viable" build at the moment has a single large pulse laser. A single one, and it still overheats! Why doesn't the 2X Raven have ECM when it is the absolute worst Raven for many many reasons?

And don't answer the argument with "because the 3L had ECM stock!" I don't care what the Raven 3L had stock. I care about a balanced, fun game. On top of that, ECM is not what ECM was in TT. You can't argue that the 3L should have ECM because of lore and then in the same breath argue that ECM should stay as it is regardless of lore.

[WardenWolf]

Also, consider carefully where you put the ECM hardpoints. Please don't put it in a location that crosses over with other weapons hardpoints! Also, not in the legs (that would seem a silly place during mech design, even though I know a lot of people use it now).

[FupDup]

OneEyed Jack, on 03 April 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

*sigh*

It's not about power, FFS. ECM works by sending out a scrambling signal. If you know the signal involved, you can program your sensors to ignore it. ECM scrambling your own electronics is moronic.

*sigh*

It's not about realism, FFS. It's about adding an element of risk-versus-reward as opposed to the current mechanic of reward-versus-reward. The power thing was just an attempt at classical Battletech space magic to explain it (same as everything else, like why an AC/20 has less range than an AC/10, why Gauss Rifles generate low heat, why mechs weigh so little compared to their physical size without being hollow, etc.).

Edited by FupDup, 03 April 2013 - 02:20 PM.

[Almeras]

I'm disappointed with those views paul


The simple question to ask yourself; if a Mech can carry ECM is their anything anyone could say to convince you not to take it? I doubt it, its just so useful. If ECM is balance why is it not treated like BAP and AMS and unlock it for every mech?


The ECM war can be defined by this:
The winners can play MWO as before vs The losers are blinded tactically, and their SSRMs and LRMS far reduced.

Tag is semi useful but it turns LRMs into a slowmans guass. (Their sniper boats will love you)
PPC are too heavy/hot to benefit taking in smaller mechs who depend on lightweight ssrms.
BAP/AMS are not even near the bar compared to ecm.

You like suggestions, mine are ECM take your pick of a few of these:
Should hide you till 350meters,
Increase lock on time x% (not block it),
Bubble down to 100m
Bubble only works if your standing still
3 modes, Counter, personal disrupt (like now but no bubble), Bubble mode (like now but detection at 350m)
Only cover team mates if they are moving under 50Kph
Adds a percentage miss to lock on weapons (like AMS)
Not work 100% of the time but have a random cycle
Static on the tactical map where ECM is in operation

[danust]

Totally wiping all friendly data in line of sight even is a bit much.

BAP. Tried it, no real results for me.

PPC [ERPPC] works. And works well. But again here ERPPC the 3L < 100m while tagging and another ECM prevents. LOS with tag danger close. Thats a lot of power in 1.5t.

Thanks for the info. I agree on ECM needing to be in the game but blocking close in view friendlies and tagged enemies, well QQ on the pewpew. All is well. Good post.

[Deathlike]

shintakie, on 03 April 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

Which makes me wonder why the D-DC was the Atlas that got ECM in the first place.

Missile hardpoints. See Commando-2D.

The Atlas-K could use ECM, but then it wouldn't need 2 AMS slots.

[whiteknight]

ECM in its current incarnation makes AMS just pointless, which is another reason its clearly doing too good a job, its invalidating other, more limited pieces of equipment....

Edited by whiteknight, 03 April 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[wwiiogre]

Quite dissapointed that rewind and ppc are the fix for the problems of ECM. Yep the entire ECM thread was a waste of time.

We are now stuck with not Guardian ECM because currently we do not have Guardian ECM. We do not have even Angel ECM. We have a combination of Angel and Null sig that is out of timeline and is completely wrong and Over Powered.

The only reason we don't have a raging column against ECM at the moment is LRM/SSRM/SRM are currently nerfed. But the moment they reup the damage on missiles then ECM once again becomes the most powerful equipment in the game.

Shameful response but understandable given how much PGI has already sunk into this broken system. To fix it would probably cost more man hours and money than it is worth.

Oh Well, 8 v 8 and 12 v 12 will once again become ECM fest once missiles are un nerfed.

At least they could have put ecm into the elo system so one side never has more than a +1 ecm balance. Then it would not be so devastating to new players or solo pug droppers

Chris

[warner2]

What still puzzles me is why PGI feels the need to ask for more feedback. There were weeks even months of ECM posts on the forums, then came the official "tell us what you think about ECM" thread, which led to a load more feedback (probably better constructed). Now, after this announcement, which is really just PGI saying "we like ECM where it is and it's not going to change much", why ask for more feedback? You've had piles of the stuff. If you don't know how the community feels now you never will.

Face it, ECM is here to stay, more or less in it's current form, and it won't change much at all. That's what Paul just said, so if don't like it, just deal with it.

[Vassago Rain]

AlexEss, on 03 April 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Ok here is my take on it.

In a pug it hardly matters.. it is a total toss of the dice if you win or not any way so blaming ECM is just to sooth the ego.

In organized play i have to ask... Why leave your team open to ECM. Practise some anti ECM tactics and play smart. That way ECM becomes a fairly much non issue.

And streaks... Honestly as soon as they tweak out that bad habit of them hitting center troso 98% of the time it is a pretty gimped weapon compared to... Any other missile weapon.

But again that is my honest personal opinion.

But it's not. It comes down to which side has the more effective warboss. If there's no warboss, the more effective hunter-killer light pack.

ECM is a power amplifier for these two, but bad warbosses don't even know how to go counter. They rush in on full disrupt, so the enemy know they're there. They don't fade away into the lower city under disrupt.

You get the idea. This is why you shouldn't comment on ECM, because you don't know what it really does.

[shintakie]

Deathlike, on 03 April 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Missile hardpoints. See Commando-2D.

The Atlas-K could use ECM, but then it wouldn't need 2 AMS slots.

It has missile hardpoints, yes, but that doesn't explain why it got ECM. If we're goin by lore, the K should have it since the K2 Atlas is the one that actually ends up with ECM. The K is also considered the most advanced Atlas on the market and had all the bells and whistles. The only thing the D-DC has is a command console.

There's no internal logic to the mechs that got ECM vs the ones that didn't. You can't even claim they threw darts to figure it out because, with the exception of the Cicada, they're all on the best ones. How does that even make sense?

[Anais Opal]

K, my tuppence worth

'What is the official stance on the Guardian ECM?

Guardian ECM, like all features in the game, is very close to where we want it to be.

ECM brought a whole new level of strategy and skill to the battlefield and is something that we've been striving to achieve instead of flat plane,'

I'm sorry, strategy?? Team with most ECM wins, no strategy required...

As for your 'counter measures' PAH, added because ECM was broken to begin with and you tried to cover your sorry mistake with them. ECM is supposed to be countered by the ECCM module. Want to create and implement that and actually BALANCE it correctly instead of closing the gate after the horse bolted???

As I've stated before in either this thread or another. ECM as it stands now is NOT I repeat NOT Guardian ECM, it is ANGEL ECM with the added functionality of stealth armour that goes BEYOND TT rules and creates a stealth bubble around the WHOLE TEAM not just the Mech carrying the ECM.

Whoever created this addition to the game is a BLOOMIN *****

[aniviron]

Royalewithcheese, on 03 April 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

I think it's cute that Paul thinks the PPC counters ECM.

My first thought exactly. Playing in a jenner, what should I do about ECM? I can't believe the idea to mount a PPC never occurred to me before!

[Rofl]

I don't understand how people are okay with ECM outright disabling 2 weapon types.

A very smart poster once put in the suggestion forums something about 2 new items that were fanciful and pseudoscience monsters. I am paraphrasing and may be wrong, can't find the post:

The first basically disabled all incoming energy weapons to the equipped mech, didn't help out friendies at all. It would be disabled iirc by missile or autocannon fire, or something like that.

The second made all ballistic weapons slow down so much that they would miss and/or not damage mechs in a 180m range inside the bubble. Firing out would be fine. It would be disabled if another mech carrying the same equipment got within 180m. Both systems would be turned off.

They'd both respectively weight 1.5 tons and take up 2 crits. The sad thing is, looking at these amazingly awesome systems, is that ECM in it's current state is still more powerful.

[Tennex]

Carrioncrows, on 03 April 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

I hate being "FORCED" to take an ECM mech to be competitive.

i love it. my K/D ratio with the 3L is 5.

but that doesn't excuse how badly ECM was implemented.

[Roadbeer]

[Vassago Rain]

shintakie, on 03 April 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

Which makes me wonder why the D-DC was the Atlas that got ECM in the first place.

As I said earlier. Why do the best variants of every chassis (minus Cicadas) also get ECM to stack the deck in their favor? Why doesn't the 5K Spider have ECM? Its only "viable" build at the moment has a single large pulse laser. A single one, and it still overheats! Why doesn't the 2X Raven have ECM when it is the absolute worst Raven for many many reasons?

And don't answer the argument with "because the 3L had ECM stock!" I don't care what the Raven 3L had stock. I care about a balanced, fun game. On top of that, ECM is not what ECM was in TT. You can't argue that the 3L should have ECM because of lore and then in the same breath argue that ECM should stay as it is regardless of lore.

Because that atlas is the command atlas, so it should have the command gear. You all complain that it's not fluffy, but that's exactly how the game's designed.