1089 replies to this topic

[Burning Chrome]

hammerreborn, on 04 April 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

Herp derp derp derp durp. Hurp derp durp durp.

Amazing... Anyone else notice this?

Does he get points for consistency or something?

Edited by Burning Chrome, 04 April 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[dal10]

Bluten, on 04 April 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

The problem with the K is that it sacrifices weapon hardpoints in order to slot a second AMS. This is a very stupid trade since the ECM is better, and the D DC doesn't have to sacrifice squat to slot one. Also, there is now a 2 AMS Stalker and it doesn't sacrifice guns either, despite being a lighter Mech as well. K has simply been f**ked every way possible since its release. Not since before ECM patch has it been worth anything.

i used to use mine as a long range support mech. 3 large lasers gauss lrm 20. 40 tons of weaponry 20 tons of armor kept the xl. runs a bit hot but works well enough. got both ams plus 4 tons ammo 3 gauss ammo 4 lrm 20 ammo.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4a71f91a5196296

not a bad build in the slightest

[Corvus Antaka]

SirLANsalot, on 03 April 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

the issue with ECM is not the module itself, but when used in conjunction with a certain weapon system.

The fact it denys locks is a good thing, but it needs to be able to do that to the mech it is ON as well. The issue is when an ECM mech can deny locks to an opposing light mech, that doesn't have ECM, and tear it to shreds with streaks. Case in point, a Raven or Commando comes across an enemy Jenner or Spider (yes the spider has it too but no missiles), the two mechs engage and the one with streaks will crush the other mech. Reason is, the other mech CANNOT return fire with its own streaks or hit very well with its own normal SRM's, leaving it with just the medium lasers it has and we all know how hard it is to keep on target...with or without state rewind.

That situation gets played out every day all across the game, even against heavier mechs. The solution is simple and one that just evens the playing field between two lights mechs, and the ECM mech vs a heavier mech.
If you have an ECM module on your mech, then you cannot use locking weapons. You can have them on your mech, and dumb fire them (LRM's) but you will be unable to gain a lock with them until the module itself is destroyed. Regardless of what mode the module is in, you will not be able to gain a lock. So if you have SSRM's you wont be able to shoot them at all until you lose your ECM, or change over to SRM2 or SRM4. This brings the "skill" back into the mechs themselves, and also evens out the playing field for ALL ECM mechs and all the other light mechs.

ECM will still be able to deny locks to enemy mechs near you, so nothing there changes, it still works as intended, but now you too cannot gain a lock either.

This is an answer to the issue of 1v1 combat (ECM vs normal) and 2v1 combat (2xECM vs 1ECM) the fact that "counter mode" only effects ECM in a 1:1 ratio. So another example is this. 2 Ravens vs 1 Raven, not only is this a bad fight to begin with, its compounded even more by the fact that the 1 Raven will not be able to use its own streaks at all during the fight, no matter how much counter he puts down.

TL;DR. If you have an ECM module on your mech at all, regardless of status (disrupt or counter) you will not be able to gain a lock with lockable weapons.

(all mechs are assumed to be there ECM variants when mentioned).

+1

[dal10]

SirLANsalot, on 03 April 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

the issue with ECM is not the module itself, but when used in conjunction with a certain weapon system.

The fact it denys locks is a good thing, but it needs to be able to do that to the mech it is ON as well. The issue is when an ECM mech can deny locks to an opposing light mech, that doesn't have ECM, and tear it to shreds with streaks. Case in point, a Raven or Commando comes across an enemy Jenner or Spider (yes the spider has it too but no missiles), the two mechs engage and the one with streaks will crush the other mech. Reason is, the other mech CANNOT return fire with its own streaks or hit very well with its own normal SRM's, leaving it with just the medium lasers it has and we all know how hard it is to keep on target...with or without state rewind.

That situation gets played out every day all across the game, even against heavier mechs. The solution is simple and one that just evens the playing field between two lights mechs, and the ECM mech vs a heavier mech.
If you have an ECM module on your mech, then you cannot use locking weapons. You can have them on your mech, and dumb fire them (LRM's) but you will be unable to gain a lock with them until the module itself is destroyed. Regardless of what mode the module is in, you will not be able to gain a lock. So if you have SSRM's you wont be able to shoot them at all until you lose your ECM, or change over to SRM2 or SRM4. This brings the "skill" back into the mechs themselves, and also evens out the playing field for ALL ECM mechs and all the other light mechs.

ECM will still be able to deny locks to enemy mechs near you, so nothing there changes, it still works as intended, but now you too cannot gain a lock either.

This is an answer to the issue of 1v1 combat (ECM vs normal) and 2v1 combat (2xECM vs 1ECM) the fact that "counter mode" only effects ECM in a 1:1 ratio. So another example is this. 2 Ravens vs 1 Raven, not only is this a bad fight to begin with, its compounded even more by the fact that the 1 Raven will not be able to use its own streaks at all during the fight, no matter how much counter he puts down.

TL;DR. If you have an ECM module on your mech at all, regardless of status (disrupt or counter) you will not be able to gain a lock with lockable weapons.

(all mechs are assumed to be there ECM variants when mentioned).

that is not completely true. the raven will be able to use its streaks or neither of them will be. basically it has to keep switching from counter to disrupt and back again. both ravens disrupting then disrupt. one switches to counter then you switch to counter. then either neither or both can use streaks. would still be a lopsided fight, but nowhere near as bad as you say. the issue is 3v1 ecm wise, then you are just screwed.

[Accursed Richards]

Burning Chrome, on 04 April 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Amazing... Anyone else notice this?

Does he get points for consistency or something?

Everyone with an interest in this topic probably knows hammerreborn's preferred style of debating. You could trade insults with him (thereby "proving" to him that those with a problem with ECM are whiners), or let him pick apart your argument into a three-page digression that misses the point (thereby "proving" to him that there's no problem), but I think most of us would rather not do either of those things?

[Aesthetech]

On the plus side, this is the most fitting opportunity I've had to use this image in ages.



Just trying to stay positive.

[CGB Kilbourne]

The Team issue with ECM is big, but not the biggest threat.

There are 2 Counters in this game, AMS and ECM.

AMS reduces the damage missiles deal by shooting some of them down. The best way to counter missiles is to take cover.

ECM cancels the ability to lock on with missiles. This removes (completely) the ability to use Streak and LRM Missiles.

Therefore, why would any pilot NOT drive an ECM Mech and always put an ECM on it? 1.5 Tons for complete negation of Lock On Missile System.s

In Tabletop Battletech (Which this game clearly intends to mimic) ECM DOES NOT disrupt Missiles of any kind. It shouldn't in this game either. A concession could be made where ECM increases lock-on time, but that's pretty far as it is.

So, since BAP is useless also in this game version, why not allow BAP to allow Missile Locks for LRMs and Streaks against ECM carrying Mechs?

There are real solutions here. You can take the "Well, this is where we want the game to be," line as far as you want, but ultimately the majority of the player base is likely not team-oriented enough to utilize all the other equipment (TAG, etc) the way PGI wants it to be used.

In the end, everyone is still going to drive ECM only Mechs and in 8v8 or 12v12 no one is going to take Missiles. So, why have them.

[River Walker]

Will good job at killing off the User bases PGI.
This user has just stop playing and paying.Oh and if you have not been keeping up a lot of team have stop playing along with a lot of founder.
I have a list of over 20 user that no longer play MWO Because of ECM and lack of content in game play.
Team play is Dead because its all ECM with Cheese builds and Farming Newbie is the name of the game ones again with 4 Mech drops using Raven and Atlas.

Out standing job at Ficking it all up PGI.

[Tarball]

I think ECM is good how it is right now. It does need an active, non ecm counter however. I think the game has potential for it with NARC. If you could make the NARC beacon disregard ecm on any target it's stuck too, with the exception of the mech with ecm mounted.

For example if you have an Atlas DDC running with ECM and lets say a stalker running along with him. You can't currently target either one of them for LRM's. It would be cool if fast mech with a NARC could zoom in and stick the narc on the Stalker making it target-able for 15 to 20 seconds. Would really help offset the ECM and would make the NARC much more useful.

Then you could have a decent counter to ECM covered mechs. As for the mech with ECM mounted? Let BAP be able to get locks on the ecm mounted mechs. Just keep the lock time slow. I think this would keep ecm powerful but provide effective counters for those pilots that want to specialize in ECM counter mechs. Could be a fun option.

How would you counter BAP? Narc. Have it be dual function. Have it disrupt BAP mounted mechs. That way it could serve an offensive function as well. I know i'd be much more inclined to use NARC on my raven if it actually was useful.

Wait isn't narc to powerful then? Have ECM, when switched into counter mod jam NARC beacons.

Let me know what you guys think.

[DocBach]

Richard Sharpe, on 04 April 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

In Tabletop Battletech (Which this game clearly intends to mimic) ECM DOES NOT disrupt Missiles of any kind. It shouldn't in this game either. A concession could be made where ECM increases lock-on time, but that's pretty far as it is.

So, since BAP is useless also in this game version, why not allow BAP to allow Missile Locks for LRMs and Streaks against ECM carrying Mechs?

Actually, in Battletech's expansion ruleset Tactical Operations, ECM has a third mode in which enemy sensors are flooded with false targets which make getting locks harder in the form of a +1 modifier to hit, called "Ghost Target Mode."

Beagle Active Probe does indeed counter Ghost Target mode in this ruleset. Imagine that, a 1.5 ton passive piece of equipment countered by another 1.5 ton piece of equipment which can counter the other counter by running in a different mode (all without the need of a 7 ton energy weapon)!

[arghmace]

Paul Inouye:
"Putting a PPC shot on an ECM equipped Mech makes them very vulnerable for 4 seconds... but not only that, you have also put a lot of damage into that Mech."

How does this differ from shooting a mech without ECM with a PPC?

You are quite clearly saying that every other mech is very vulnerable all the time and thus admitting that ECM is still OP.

PPC doing damage IS NOT a drawback of having ECM.

Things like ECM having only 3 hit points mean absolutely nothing when the main problem is hiding the entire team. Sure you can maybe shoot it off after enemy Atlases are in your base, but what good does it do at that point?

Edited by arghmace, 04 April 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[Apnu]

I've only read through 5 pages of 25 in this thread, but from what I can tell lots of players are missing one of the main points PGI is making. Teamwork. Teamwork and communication is the best counter to ECM. But the suggestions and examples seem to be centered around one counter to ECM that a singular and individual mech can equip then go after the ECM mech (say the RVN-3L) and counter it.

In my 4 man and 8v8 games we either team up more than one ECM mech together or we just forget trying to counter ECM at all and focus on direct fire weapons to win the day. Both strategies work. When I'm in a PUG, I do the best I can with teamwork w/out comms. Its not hard, pick a mech that compliments your build and be his buddy. Works most of the time.

Sure there are counters. ECM has only 3 hp, so if you can get inside its easy to pop (I know, my DDC has it pop all the time), and the PPC counter is great for being able to see the ****** for a little bit. That intel can make or break a game. Of course more ECM counters the enemy ECM, and soon there will be hardpoints for it, which I'm in favor of.

But all of that just complements the main counter to ECM, teamwork. I think a lot of people here are looking for a magic bullet and PGI isn't going to make one.

Adapt... over come.

[hammerreborn]

Accursed Richards, on 04 April 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Everyone with an interest in this topic probably knows hammerreborn's preferred style of debating. You could trade insults with him (thereby "proving" to him that those with a problem with ECM are whiners), or let him pick apart your argument into a three-page digression that misses the point (thereby "proving" to him that there's no problem), but I think most of us would rather not do either of those things?

I'm not sure why you do it either. Being wrong all the time must suck.

Edited by hammerreborn, 04 April 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[CGB Kilbourne]

DocBach, on 04 April 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Actually, in Battletech's expansion ruleset Tactical Operations, ECM has a third mode in which enemy sensors are flooded with false targets which make getting locks harder in the form of a +1 modifier to hit, called "Ghost Target Mode."

Beagle Active Probe does indeed counter Ghost Target mode in this ruleset. Imagine that, a 1.5 ton passive piece of equipment countered by another 1.5 ton piece of equipment which can counter the other counter by running in a different mode (all without the need of a 7 ton energy weapon)!

I didn't see that, good find!

Still, a +1 to hit is nowhere near the same zip code as "Cannot lock on target at all." In Tabletop, the MWO ECM would make you have to roll a 13 to hit.

[Deathlike]

Thontor, on 04 April 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

So many people are acting like they aren't making any changes to ECM... Not having it take away the ability to know where your teammates are is huge in pug games, And the hardpoint idea migr be more influential than just knowing where to shoot to try and disable ECM. They could in effect nerf the ECM mechs depending on where they put the hardpoint.

And I think the ECM+Streaks combo is more of a problem of streaks being to effective. If streaks weren't the go-to anti-light weapon that they are, ECM Streaks would be no more effective than ECM+Lasers... And I think most people can agree that ECM+Lasers isnt a problem.

The hardpoint is irrelevant when it is a light mech, which tends to more in any and every direction, making concentrated shots very difficult to make with, especially a projectile like the PPC.

Streaks being too effective is a problem on its own. Even if you don't consider that... if you brought a pair of PPCs to brawl (obviously, not optimal) and chain fire vs an ECM target, if there's another ECM in the area.. using your own streaks would automatically be negated, defeating your PPC-Streaks build which is a bit more common these days.

MustrumRidcully, on 04 April 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Wasn't one of the trial suggestion mechs picked by PGI that CPLT-C1 with 2 Streak SRMs, 2 LRMs and 2 SRMs? I suppose they thought htis mech was perfect, because it proved that even a missile boat mech can have side-weapons to compensate its weak spots (minimum range or ECM or ECM and minimum range).

Oh dear... I really wonder what kind of data PGI is basing its decisions on...

The same mech had SHS (15 IIRC) and IIRC Paul references a 19 SHS Catapult in discussing coolant. Anyone who doesn't recognize how powerful the straight DHS upgrade would automatically be superior to the 19 SHS Catapult clearly doesn't know/understand his own game mechanics better than the players.

[Chauneko]

Apnu, on 04 April 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

I've only read through 5 pages of 25 in this thread, but from what I can tell lots of players are missing one of the main points PGI is making. Teamwork. Teamwork and communication is the best counter to ECM. But the suggestions and examples seem to be centered around one counter to ECM that a singular and individual mech can equip then go after the ECM mech (say the RVN-3L) and counter it.

Adapt... over come.

The problem is that the other team can bring 8 ECM. If it takes multiple non-ECM mechs working together to effectively counter a mech that does have ECM then there is a force disparity between 8 mechs with versus 8 mechs without. That's why so many people are focusing on one to one or hard counters and the lack thereof.

[Mystere]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 April 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

What does disabling ECM for 4 seconds do for you exactly? And what does it do when 2 ECM are near eachother? Just as a frame of reference. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

But 4 seconds is not enough for LRM's, and at best you might get to use your own Streaks.

Single ECM Enemy

If you are dealing with only 1 ECM-equipped mech, especially if it is a D-DC, don't shoot it just once and then walk away. The (ER)PPC has a cooldown of 3 seconds and as such you can disable his ECM until one of you dies. Both my Pretty Baby and AWS-9M carry 2, just in case I miss while shooting that big fat Atlas ( ). My PB also carries 3xSSRM2 while the 9M carries an LRM10. They also both carry TAG and run at 89 and 86 KPH respectively.

A lone Raven 3L, especially in open terrain, is not problem given the firepower and speed it will be facing.

Surprise is your best friend. Also, I usually start my attack from behind at full speed.

Note though that I haven't tried this tactic lately after the recent "adjustments" to missile damage.


Two ECM Enemies

As for dealing with 2 ECM-equipped mechs, it's very situational and has to do with mech composition, terrain, and positioning to name a few. The element of surprise is definitely your best friend here. But, the "easiest" ( ) case is when the 2 ECM-equipped mechs are closest to each other -- that's really a bad idea as far as I am concerned.

More often than not I will die alone (it's basically a suicide run). But success means at least 2-3 of the enemy are dead, with me bagging at least one of those. It's definitely not for people fond of their KDR -- although mine surprisingly went up with the PB and 6 kills is my all time high.

By the way, I have been 100% solo all this time.


TLDR Version

It can be done.

Edited by Mystere, 04 April 2013 - 09:04 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

Nauht, on 03 April 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

I see nothing wrong here.

A skill-less counter to skill-less weapon systems.

Now you're gonna have to learn how to shoot and lead fire.

Then why doesn't ECM counter direct-fire weapons? There is far less skill involved in placing your crosshair on a target and pulling the trigger after running right up to a target than there is in holding that target long enough to gain a lock, judging the launch angle, travel time, and then continuing to hold the target through the flight time of the missiles while being open to combat, and needing to consider if the target you are guiding your missiles to is worth continuing to track or sacrificing the volley of missile already launched in favor of engaging a new target that might have higher priority.

I also find it interesting that this comes from someone who obviously never wanted to put in the time to learn how to use missiles, yet tells everyone else they have to learn to use his own weapons now.

The bottom line: Using LRMs requires far more skill than any direct-fire weapon out there. I use every weapon, and I know this for fact. I can pinpoint kill mechs with lasers. I can rain down a barrage of autocannon fire on a target. I can shred them to pieces with SRMs. But all of that simply requires me to run up to them and pull the trigger. LRMs require much more thought and patience, and anyone who simply charges in and fires them will almost always do no damage at all with them, either through poor aiming skills or not being aware of the requirements for the weapon to actually work (surprise...direct-fire weapons don't have the last restriction).

So, in conclusion, your remark is ignorant of the facts, and completely the opposite of the truth. Now, if ECM blocked all direct-fire weapons except for a tiny window of 5 m range at about 300meters (you can do damage with direct-fire weapons from 295m-300m only against an ECM protected unit), then I would say you were stating a truth.

[Deathlike]

Apnu, on 04 April 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

I've only read through 5 pages of 25 in this thread, but from what I can tell lots of players are missing one of the main points PGI is making. Teamwork. Teamwork and communication is the best counter to ECM. But the suggestions and examples seem to be centered around one counter to ECM that a singular and individual mech can equip then go after the ECM mech (say the RVN-3L) and counter it.

In my 4 man and 8v8 games we either team up more than one ECM mech together or we just forget trying to counter ECM at all and focus on direct fire weapons to win the day. Both strategies work. When I'm in a PUG, I do the best I can with teamwork w/out comms. Its not hard, pick a mech that compliments your build and be his buddy. Works most of the time.

Sure there are counters. ECM has only 3 hp, so if you can get inside its easy to pop (I know, my DDC has it pop all the time), and the PPC counter is great for being able to see the ****** for a little bit. That intel can make or break a game. Of course more ECM counters the enemy ECM, and soon there will be hardpoints for it, which I'm in favor of.

But all of that just complements the main counter to ECM, teamwork. I think a lot of people here are looking for a magic bullet and PGI isn't going to make one.

Adapt... over come.

Teamwork is a great influence, but ECM increases that influence significantly. It has been said that it is a FORCE multiplier, so those with ECM AND good teamwork tend to win. Good teamwork generally wins games, but ECM tips the scales a lot more.

http://mwomercs.com/...-drawing-board/

Quote

My personal CPLT-K2 has 19 single heat sinks on it. The cooling amounts are as follows:

Just READING this garbage annoys me to no end.

Edited by Deathlike, 04 April 2013 - 09:04 AM.

[Apnu]

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

You know what irritates me most about this whole ECM thing? All the feedback in the previous ECM feedback topic was wasted.

All we are gonna do is repeat everything thats already been said and it will get ignored again.

The feedback wasn't ignored at all. They are going to do two community suggested things. Feedback is Feedback not a check list for PGI to make less than half the community happy.

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

WHY PLAY ANY LIGHT MECH THAT DOESNT HAVE ECM?....... HELLO

I see Jenners, Spiders and Commandos all the time. I have a deep respect for a well piloted Jenner, I've seen some pilots just beat the pants off my team in Jenners and Commandos. And this after ECM was introduced w/out any counters. But to answer your question: Because some people like the skill and challenge of running a non-ECM light.

ECM+SSRMs = easy mode. Some folks just don't roll that way.