95 replies to this topic

[Scromboid]

If PGI put in Variants that weren't trash (ala the Community Dragon) then new players wouldn't get beat up as badly.

Having a trash build like the 4X being on trial is brutal to new players...

[Syllogy]

.... So what does this have to do with MWO losing new players?

Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to throw one at TT and say "But SHS work the same way in MWO as they do in Tabletop! And we all know that Tabletop rules are perfect!"

Edited by Syllogy, 04 April 2013 - 04:58 AM.

[Mahws]

New players are forced to grind out several matches of terriband single heatsink builds that are half as effective as the builds the other players in the match are using. Then if they manage to keep playing the game after that they'll probably buy a mech, customize the weapons and... still be half as combat effective because they haven't played TT and aren't aware that DHS aren't a sidegrade like everything else and are compulsory for being halfway competitive in the game.

Kind of thought the OP covered most of that.

[FupDup]

Syllogy, on 04 April 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

.... So what does this have to do with MWO losing new players?

It is one of multiple factors contributing as to why new players experience being a punching bag for their first several matches. These factors are (not in any particular order):

1. Terribad heat efficiency (can overheat by just farting too hard in a trial mech)
2. Horrible weapon loadouts that stretch the mech's firepower too thin over too many roles
3. Pathetic ammo reserves
4. Lack of tutorial elements to teach nubcakes all of the special controls and manuevers needed for MWO
5. Being matched against min/maxed mechs and highly experienced players (Elo casts a fairly wide net sometimes)

Syllogy, on 04 April 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to throw one at TT and say "But SHS work the same way in MWO as they do in Tabletop! And we all know that Tabletop rules are perfect!"

Edited by FupDup, 04 April 2013 - 06:31 AM.

[Roadbeer]

WTF does SHS have to do with new players?

Edited by Dakkath, 05 April 2013 - 06:23 AM.
CoC - Flaming.

[MrPenguin]

Roadbeer, on 04 April 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

WTF does SHS have to do with new players?

For some reason. People in this thread appear to assume that new players will actually know the difference between single a duel heatsinks with out ever touching the game or even care about it.

In other words: The OP thinks everyone interested in this game is a massive battletech fan and are very knowledgeable.
The problem with this is that said people have been playing the game for months and the only people left that can join are people who have no idea what the hell battletech is or have never played a mechwarrior game in there life. Which would probably be the majority of gamers.

Edited by MrPenguin, 04 April 2013 - 06:59 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Scromboid, on 04 April 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

If PGI put in Variants that weren't trash (ala the Community Dragon) then new players wouldn't get beat up as badly.

Having a trash build like the 4X being on trial is brutal to new players...

Why didn't they design their game so that their trial mechs work reasonably well? The based their game on another game that pulled that off, after all.


In the Table Top:
- Take a Stock Mech. Runs reasonably well heat-wise
- Add Double Heat Sinks. Mech is overcooled and wasting tonnage and crit slots on DHS it never needs.
- Customized and Optimized Single Heat Sink Mech will be changed to a "boat", using less different weapon systems then the base but similar overall firepower
- Customized and Optimzied Double Heat Sink mech will be similar to the SHS mech, but with more guns or heavier/hotter guns.

In MW:O
- Take a Stock Mech. Probably overheats rapidly.
- Add Double Heat Sink. Runs reasonably well heat-wise
- Customized and Optimized Single Heat Sink mech will be changed to a boat, using less different weapon systems with less overall firepower
- Customized and Optimized Double Heat Sink mech will look about like the a table top mech with Single Heat Sinks.

MrPenguin, on 04 April 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

For some reason. People in this thread appear to assume that new players will actually know the difference between single a duel heatsinks with out ever touching the game or even care about it.

In other words: The OP thinks everyone interested in this game is a massive battletech fan and are very knowledgeable.
The problem with this is that said people have been playing the game for months and the only people left that can join are people who have no idea what the hell battletech is or have never played a mechwarrior game in there life. Which would probably be the majority of gamers.

You don't need to have any idea about single or double heat sinks or Battletech to realize that your mech is shutting down a lot. Most players will simply not like being so prone to overheating. Not because they understand anything about Battletech, not because they are dumb idiots that don't like heat management ever, but because a fundamental element of games is that the player is in control, and you only take it away for special occasions (cut scenes, stun effects), and if you do it too often, you frustrate him and he stops playing.
It's worse when you have no idea that double heat sinks exist. Because then you might assume the game plays like this all the time, and realize that you don't want a stop & go Stompy Robot game.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 April 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

for the 10 heat sink you have to at least block a 250 engine to effectively fire more than 2M lasers, you need additional heat sinking, but each requires 3 consecutive rows legs fail because only two line-free, in the arm a weapon with more than three lines + Muni, also because no other DHS longer possible, and Head and Center Torso no extra lines for DHS... only Arms and Sidetorso for DHS .. I have a Awesome with 18 DHS and 2 ER PPCs, and secondary 3-M Laser+2SRM and a 285 XL Engine, 11 DHS in the engine, LT / RT per 2DHS, Right Arm 1 DHS, and Left Arm 2DHS, many lines I have not used ,and no Place for more DHS ,of the Other side with SHS i can 28 build in

two alphas with the PPC and a switch to the M lasers and SRMs and the 'Mech shutdown rapidley in frozen
my Jager with 3XAC5 (not Ultra) has only 10 SHS , and make more Kills and Damage als the Awesome ,is faster and has no Heatproblem

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 04 April 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[BillyM]

Simple fix, trial mechs run DHS, period.

...once you start buying, you have the choice to upgrade or leave-be, but make the Trials actually worthwhile!

--billyM

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

The new player experience can be improved through...

1. 3050 tech Trial Mechs. The recent Trebuchet last month was an example of this.
2. Player Designed Trial Mechs, such as the fantastic Dragon we have this month.

[Stargoat]

Assuming Elo is working properly, and if further newbie-friendly measures are implemented (trials more likely to face trials?), there shouldn't really be a problem for new players using SHS over DHS.

That being said, it would be nice if there were more tactical tension over the decision of taking DHS over SHS. At least DHS aren't 2.0 outside the engine, that would make the DHS an unquestionable upgrade, as opposed to unquestionable only 98% of the time. SHS having higher capacity but lower cooling rate is an interesting idea.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

BillyM, on 04 April 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Simple fix, trial mechs run DHS, period.

...once you start buying, you have the choice to upgrade or leave-be, but make the Trials actually worthwhile!

--billyM

the only thing you can see, this is the most have no idea about the Mechlab, the 'Mechs weapons and their development of heat and how to configure a Mech ... for Gauss you need no DHS because it generates no heat large, a hunchback with AC20 has done much heat but by the AC 20 is no place for DHS except UDN in the other torso side and arms goes with SHS much better, because you can can equitably and should weapon groups also konfiguerieren very sensible, also use Chainfire and not just alphas raushauen ... in trial with SHS I would most beginners in the DHS mech take apart, because they still lack the skills and experience, I have, after 15 years MW games.

Stargoat, on 04 April 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

Assuming Elo is working properly, and if further newbie-friendly measures are implemented (trials more likely to face trials?), there shouldn't really be a problem for new players using SHS over DHS.

That being said, it would be nice if there were more tactical tension over the decision of taking DHS over SHS. At least DHS aren't 2.0 outside the engine, that would make the DHS an unquestionable upgrade, as opposed to unquestionable only 98% of the time. SHS having higher capacity but lower cooling rate is an interesting idea.

DHS outside the engine have a rate of 1.4 not 2.0 efficience

[RainbowToh]

Mahws, on 03 April 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

I think that bears repeating in bigger letters. DHS GIVE YOU TWICE THE EFFECTIVE FIREPOWER OF A NEW PLAYER. Let that sink in for a moment. No cost. No disadvantage. No trade off. Just straight up double the heat cooldown. Remember how we all make fun of terribly balanced MMO free to plays were high level characters walk around kicking sand in the face of new players with a massive unfair disadvantage? Welcome to Mechwarrior Online, we may not be doing it on purpose, but that's what's happening.

No cost???? Dude, I grinded (note the time n effort taken too) for all that Cbills to upgrade from SHS to DHS for each mech I wanted to upgrade. How much was it? 1.5mil or 2 mil? They want it, they grind it. Or Pay for Convenience.

[Yokaiko]

BillyM, on 04 April 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Simple fix, trial mechs run DHS, period.

...once you start buying, you have the choice to upgrade or leave-be, but make the Trials actually worthwhile!

--billyM

Or just fix the heat system so that singles actually work.

[Roadbeer]

Heat system is fine
New players, when they get their 7mil Cbill thing can buy up to a Catapult with DHS.

Nothing to see here.

Stop trying to force your agenda by using New Players as your crutch. It's like screaming "WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN". When they have absolutely f'all to do with the argument.

I see people use it with ECM, and nobody has yet been able to explain to me how DHS, ECM or anything else (except the abysmal new player experience sans tutorial, training grounds) is detrimental to new players.

[Lord Psycho]

I thought SHS was heat management training...but okay kids...don't tell the newbies how to manage heat.... >.>

I figured the Trial mechs are a tutorial..I mean you want them to use uber powerful mechs thhen get disappointed when those mechs are really expenisve to buy?

[FupDup]

Lord Psycho, on 04 April 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

I thought SHS was heat management training...but okay kids...don't tell the newbies how to manage heat.... >.>

I figured the Trial mechs are a tutorial..I mean you want them to use uber powerful mechs thhen get disappointed when those mechs are really expenisve to buy?

When most nubcakes are playing their trials, they're not thinking "I'm learning how to manage my heat and ammo, hip hip hooray I'm getting betterer!"

What they are thinking is something along the lines of "Why the crap do I keep running out of ammo so fast and getting stunlocked after I shoot a few lasers?" They think completely differently than Mechwarrior/Battletech veterans.

Edited by FupDup, 04 April 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Lord Psycho, on 04 April 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

I thought SHS was heat management training...but okay kids...don't tell the newbies how to manage heat.... >.>

I figured the Trial mechs are a tutorial..I mean you want them to use uber powerful mechs thhen get disappointed when those mechs are really expenisve to buy?

Every single mech you play after the n00b stage will have good weapons, enough ammo, not stack bullets in your side torsos without CASE, and come with dubs.

Training wheels are bad, because they're not part of the actual kit later.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

you will better Mechs , buy it or grind the Cbills for it ! you will better weapons in BF 3 buy it or grind ist...Only Skill is not buyable...this is hard hard learning
I first had against our best players after training and Montane
fight in clan compete in a duel and win twice before I ever allowed to call MW. "consoles" "kiddies"(sarcastic mode on) want everything for nothing& out immediately with 100% guarantee, or you bring the cheats and wallhacks

[Zero Neutral]

Mahws, on 03 April 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

It's been a long, long time since I've run Single Heatsinks. Longer still since I've taken a trial mech out to play. I imagine the same is true for the vast majority of people here, we've all been playing for a while and by this point we simply know better.

So I'd like to remind us all just how utterly bad single heatsinks that new players use are.

Test run on Tourmaline. Exact same loadout (AC10/2ML/LRM10) on each mech, only difference is 10 SHS vs. 10 DHS.



DHS can alpha five times before overheat, SHS three times. DHS cools down from 100 percent almost twice as fast as SHS.

I think that bears repeating in bigger letters. DHS GIVE YOU TWICE THE EFFECTIVE FIREPOWER OF A NEW PLAYER. Let that sink in for a moment. No cost. No disadvantage. No trade off. Just straight up double the heat cooldown. Remember how we all make fun of terribly balanced MMO free to plays were high level characters walk around kicking sand in the face of new players with a massive unfair disadvantage? Welcome to Mechwarrior Online, we may not be doing it on purpose, but that's what's happening.

And this is on a STD200 engine, so it's not even the full advantage that engine DHS automatically give over a single heatsink mech.

Imagine a new player, just getting in to the game after reading up on the mechanics on the forum and running around in the test area like a good little mechwarrior. You get in game, you square off against someone else with the same tonnage and weapon load out as you. You get your face beaten in because they can fire their weapons twice as often as you. Rinse, repeat. You uninstall.

Buffing in engine single heatsinks to 1.8 would still keep doubles the better choice for the vast majority of builds, but make trial mechs/stock mechs less massively handicapped and give some more options to experienced players in the mechlab, which is always a good thing.

TL;DR:

Single Heatsinks are a massive (almost half the firepower) handicap for new players that drive them away from the game and offer next to nothing to experienced players. Buffing in Engine SHS would be an effective way to make trial mechs actually work and would make SHS viable for some (but definitely not most) custom builds.

New players in any game should expect to get rolled. Welcome to gaming newbies!