164 replies to this topic

[Roadbeer]

Viper69, on 05 April 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

I never said it was not a beta damnit. I said we are stress testers. The in house testers have the tools to do what they need. How many more ways do I have to explain it. THE GAME IS IN BETA>>THE GAME IS IN BETA I NEVER SAID IT WAS NOT!

The point you were trying to make was "There are no tools at our disposal, ergo, we're stress testers".
While correct in the sense that we ARE stress testing, There is no distinction between build testing and stress testing once you reach OB. Yes, you're testing server load, but you are also obliged to report bugs when you find them, perceive balance in systems, etc. You do not need a special set of tools to do that. And like I said, I can count on one hand the number of Betas I've been in that have.

Think the problem is that you're trying to put another descriptive layer on a topic that is already mired in a definitions limbo.

[Fate 6]

Roadbeer, on 04 April 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

They did look at ECM, then realized you are all completely out of your minds

If half the playerbase is out of their minds, then there is clearly something wrong.

[Roadbeer]

Fate 6, on 05 April 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

If half the playerbase is out of their minds, then there is clearly something wrong.

33% of the player base likes Mt. Dew.

I can make up numbers also.

[MrPenguin]

Arguing semantics: The thread

[Viper69]

Roadbeer, on 05 April 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Think the problem is that you're trying to put another descriptive layer on a topic that is already mired in a definitions limbo.

Yeah you are correct I probably did more harm to this thread than anything else. Think I will delete my posts because they add nothing to the thread.

[BlackWidow]

Vassago Rain, on 04 April 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

WoW is being actively worked on.
Since 2003.

Does that make it an open beta, too?

No. They had an alpha, closed beta, open beta and release. You had to buy a retail box even though there was continual content/development which god paid through monthly subscriptions.

I'm not saying that is old and outdated model. It still exists today. Especially for consoles.

But people really need to stop comparing the stuff coming out right now with previous methods and terminology.

MMO's started the trend 15 years ago of "never being finished". It's not a ONE and DONE thing anymore. And the next big step was when the F2P market took off. You still had an actual "release" but didn't have to buy a retail product since it was free to start. And if you look back at some of the titles, publishers starting "releasing" the F2P games with less and less content implementing at launch. Why? Because since you didn't have to actually pay to get it...they didn't have to make or stick to any promises of ready to go content.

It's been a gradual process both ways. One, in how much content gets delivered "up front" since the game is "always being updated" they can just move those arbitrary lines. And to, how early in a development cycle they allow customers to come in and play.

Remember when ALPHA meant INTERNAL TESTING ONLY? It wasn't that many years ago. And they they had unofficial "FREINDS AND FAMILY" phases. Then open beta, then closed beta.

Well now there are DOZENS of games where players can jump in and play ALPHA versions. Some for free but a lot, thanks to not only the F2P model but other practices such as Kickstarter's etc where ALPHA access is one of the "perks" people are happy to pay for.

PGI did not invent any of this nor have they (IMHO) even pushed the boundaries on this. I think a lot of people in here just simply have not experienced it before. It's alien and ugly to them. But, they wanted to play Mechwarrior so they jump jetted in.

I for one will be REPEATING this process with Star Citizen, Pathfinder, Planescape and Shroud of the Avatar. And what do I expect? I expect a whole new wave of gamers expressing the same anger they show in here because they don't understand what the heck they are signing up for. I also expect, by that time, that a lot of them, though will understand that things have changed through their experience with current ones such as MWO and will go..oh, ok. I get it.

It's like with the OLD version of a beta product. Yeah, I got excited EVERY time I did World of Warcraft beta. And I beta'd EVERY single one of them. But, with the exception of vanilla, i stopped playing the beta after a couple of days, because I didnt want to ruin the content for me when released and also knew things would change.

I'm glad this soft release is garnering revenue for PGI. But, I really thing a large portion of the population in here would be better of waiting until the end of summer to play. They don't have to spend any money, and they don't have to get bent about unfinished fetaures.

/cheers

[Zero Neutral]

This is clearly a beta because there are several key elements than I can think of that aren't even implemented yet:

DirectX11
Collisions
Terrain Clipping
HSR for Projectiles

Even the vision modes are not 100% finalized and a work in progress.

Beta is beta.

Edited by Zero Neutral, 05 April 2013 - 08:28 AM.

[Corros]

While we are at it, could we argue which came first.... The chicken or the egg? This is a pointless argument that cannot be won. Both sides are correct while both sides being wrong.

Open Beta does not equal Beta testing. A game enters Alpha, then moves to Beta, and is typically followed by Open Beta. Alpha and Beta testing has largely remained true to their definitions but once Open or Public Betas are release the definition has a different meaning for every game.

[FerretGR]

BlackWidow, on 04 April 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

But get this. It's a soft release of a game that is STILL IN ACTIVE DEVELOPMENT. Do you have a moniker for that? No you don't because they never really existed before the past few months.

Agreed... and "soft release of a game that is still in active development" really rolls off the tongue, does it not, OP?

This argument is semantics. Meaningless. The game is a shell of what it will be when Community Warfare is implemented. Call it whatever you like, that doesn't change.

Edited by FerretGR, 05 April 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[Orzorn]

"But its beta!" isn't the problem here. "Buts it'll get patched!" would be just as much of an issue.

It doesn't matter what we call it, so long as people continue to brush issues off by throwing out something like "its beta!" we will continue to have a harder time getting issues recognized and discussed.

What will the "But its beta!" people use to ignore issues when it is no longer beta (or whatever this current state actually is. I'm not inclined to call it beta anymore. I'd call it something of a soft release, but like I said, it doesn't matter what we call it. What really matters are the issues at hand)?

Brushing issues under the rug has never helped anyone. "But its beta" is, and has always been, a poor excuse to sweep issues away. It can hold some merit when things like CW were being asked for back in August or something, but I've seen that excuse used on the smallest, or most pressing, of issues.

Edited by Orzorn, 05 April 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[BlackWidow]

FerretGR, on 05 April 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

Agreed... and "soft release of a game that is still in active development" really rolls off the tongue, does it not, OP?

This argument is semantics. Meaningless. The game is a shell of what it will be when Community Warfare is implemented. Call it whatever you like, that doesn't change.

/salute for providing some clarity in this muck of a thread.

[Serial Crusher]

MWO is doing anything different that hasn't been done before. It defiantly isn't the first game to open the cash shop during beta. From my ACTUAL experience the game will more than likely stay in open beta forever while bugs are worked out. When the developers are happy with it the game will transition from Open Beta to Final Release with very little fanfare. A wipe wasn't done after the cash was opened.

I think it would be particularly heinous for Piranha to do a data wipe at this point. Which would probably shutter the doors MWO for good. Because why would anybody put cash in to a game if the developer is just going to wipe it out.

[BlackWidow]

Serial Crusher, on 05 April 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

MWO is doing anything different that hasn't been done before. It defiantly isn't the first game to open the cash shop during beta. From my ACTUAL experience the game will more than likely stay in open beta forever while bugs are worked out. When the developers are happy with it the game will transition from Open Beta to Final Release with very little fanfare. A wipe wasn't done after the cash was opened.

I think it would be particularly heinous for Piranha to do a data wipe at this point. Which would probably shutter the doors MWO for good. Because why would anybody put cash in to a game if the developer is just going to wipe it out.

Yeah, they have stated that unless something catastrophic happens, there won't be any more "wipes". They have also stated that "most likely" there will be a player "stat" wipe when game transitions to release.

So, your KTD ration etc will start anew. Which I think is good considering there will be a lot more data to account for including faction/merc reputations, rank etc etc.

[Appogee]

MrPenguin, on 05 April 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Arguing semantics: The thread

Totally missing the point of the thread, despite it being explained several times: You.

[GHQCommander]

Appogee, on 04 April 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I've been playing MWO hardcore for a week, and reading the forums rabidly when I'm not playing. It's truly remarkable how many threads I've read which feature the same words, over and over...

''But it's a Beta''...

So I'm now going to pop my cockpit, stick my head out of the canopy, and risk you giving me 2 x AC-20s to the face if you think I'm off the mark with the following observations...

MWO is not in Beta. It's time to stop claiming that it is, and using that as an excuse.

I'm a MechWarrior of 29 years experience. And I am loving playing MWO. I'll be buying some MechCredits soon, both to accelerate my acquisition of new tech, and to reward the devs for what they've built so far. However, after a couple of hundred matches, I feel I can also recognise that the game currently has some flaws and omissions. And that, two days ago, some new flaws were introduced, along with the welcome new content. As a fan, I want to see these flaws and omissions addressed post haste, so that this good game fulfills its potential, and becomes great.

That's why I think it's time for everyone - developers, players, fans and critics - to stop using ''but it's a Beta'' as an excuse for leaving longstanding bugs unaddressed, and releasing patches which haven't been sufficiently tested.

MWO is not in Beta...

1. MWO is open for play by anyone who wants to sign up. It already has thousands of players.
2. MWO's developers are selling products - MechCredits - and the game is producing revenue.
3. MWO is not a closed trial of code being tested and readied for launch, with a focus on reporting of bugs, analysis of balance, and incremental patches addressing bugs and balance issues. In fact, MWO's developers are focusing on earning income first, adding new content and features second, and squashing bugs third. (If MWO was a Beta, their order of priority would be reversed.)

MWO is not in Beta. It has launched. It's live. People are playing it, and paying for it. We should stop using ''but it's a Beta'' as an excuse for not addressing longstanding bugs, and releasing code which has new bugs.

By the way, I have no problem with the developers seeking to earn income for their work. In fact, I want them to get rich. I want them to make this game so fantastic, so that it becomes so successful, that they can afford to hire lots more devs to focus on QA, fix the bugs, add more content, and make this game of the year. Nothing would make me happier, or even more prepared to part with my own cash.

But I'd prefer we called ''emperor's new clothes'' on the whole ''but it's a Beta'' gambit. MWO is launched. It's disingenuous - and unnecessary - to claim otherwise. It's time for the devs to step up to production level quality assurance.

Game developers are screwing with the definition that's all. We could argue that there is no clear definition so no harm done.

It must be done this way. We must fund the game well before completion, it is how many game development projects survive and go on to become games gaining MMO awards.

Paying for the game is a choice. I think it is free to play? So really, there is nothing to complain about. Pay for a product with BETA on it and accept the terms, you get what your giving.

[Sifright]

FerretGR, on 05 April 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

Agreed... and "soft release of a game that is still in active development" really rolls off the tongue, does it not, OP?

This argument is semantics. Meaningless. The game is a shell of what it will be when Community Warfare is implemented. Call it whatever you like, that doesn't change.

I hope you are right but all indications to me point to CW being a shell around what is already released.

[Oinkage]

Welcome to MWO. I understand your frustration, but it is based upon a lack of information.

The issue with the term "BETA" for this game revolves around the fact that the same people funding the game are the ones testing the BETA. Therefore; they are confused by the fact that they are being told they are in BETA. They feel anything they are paying for should be a finished product and all updates and patches should be bug free.

Consider the following:

The traditional development model for a game is that a Development House will pitch a game to a Publisher and if that Publisher likes it, will assist the Development House with funding. The business agreements for funding and profit sharing between the Publisher and Development House have been mostly hidden from the public for many years. In this traditional model, the player will be invited to an alpha or beta before release. Once the game is ready for release, which includes not only a stable game but stable patcher and stable tested processes for delivering patches in the future, the game goes gold.

With MWO, Piranah Games floundered around for 7 years... 7 stinking years... 7 God damned years... without finding a publisher for MWO, they decided to explore the free to play model. They also needed to crowd source much of the development. (founders packages)

Fast forward to 2012. We then had a game that was crowd sourced by the players and that was unfinished. To test the game further, the developer decided to use the closest known model they could, the "open BETA."

Fast forward again to present. They are also continuously crowdsourcing the development through a free2play model. (MC Sales)

If you look at the game funding from the point of view of how we arrived at this situation, it is laughable that you are unhappy that the game is unfinished, that the patches are unstable, and that the developer is claiming the game is in "BETA" while taking money... The developer did not have a choice. There was no publisher to fund the game development in the traditional model. We, funded the development. simply put, if you don't want to pay for or play a game that is unstable, unfinished, and buggy, come back in the fall and play after the rest of us have funded the games development and participated in the open beta until it is released. We won't be offended at all. What we are sick of hearing is, "if we pay for a game then it can't be in beta." It is crowd sourced by the players. We are in an open beta. Deal with it or not, but please don't whine about it. If you don't like the term "open beta," tough. There is no commonly understood term that can be used to sort out this misunderstanding for a crowdsourced game.

[Roadbeer]

Oinkage, on 05 April 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

{lots of words}

+1,000,000

[Hellen Wheels]

Yeah, its a Beta <rolls eyes> so here are my results from todays post-hot-fix-to-enable-more-money by PGI:

game 1: transparent minimap bug (no radar)
game 2: timer at top of HUD stated, "01:Undefined" entire match
game 3: minimap shows grid over a black square, but no terrain nor any friendlies. Pressing "b" for expanded minimap results in an expanded black, opaque area overlaid with grid but no radar sigs
game 4: only low FPS
game 5: only low FPS
game 6: mech is named "WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW" on HUD
game 7: only low FPS, but when I was testing something, I was summarily told that the game is not a BETA, apparently by someone who thought that I shouldn't be testing anything, not knowing that MWO calls it a BETA. Unfortunately, I forgot to <hug> PurpleFluffyBunny for allowing me to complete my test, when I was shut down.
game 8: only low FPS, but the Deutscher had to be reminded...its a BETA, verstehen Sie?
game 9: low FPS and the arty strike, so lovingly and carefully placed downrange about 800 meters, wound up hitting on my own position
game 10: what's the use? none of this will matter one whit to IGP/PGI unless it involves $.

Enjoy the "Beta Test"! <rolls eyes>

Oh, I forgot to ask all the other "Beta Testers" to post THEIR results.

Oh, wait....they're just here for the jollies and (PGI hopes) to lose their dollars.

BETA MY ***. Its a PIG and no amount of lipstick, no amount of rose colored glasses, no amount of semantics that you think you can apply will change that.

Edited by Hellen Wheels, 05 April 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[Oinkage]

Remember, no one is forcing you to play Hellen. You can leave any time you want.