143 replies to this topic

[Turist0AT]

I gree with the OP that mediums are suffering. I love driving them (well i have only a treb) Treb i designed with missiles in mind and we all know what has happend to missiles. The result of weapon balance changes is that ive moved to Phract and dont use missiles anymore. Im a litle bit sad that i dont find all weapon system vieble (i do like the vareity in mechs and weapons) buuut this game is undegoing a lot of changes... and ive learned to not have one holy precius setup (plus if get pissed off at MWO, i just play something else and come back)

Damn. Spelling is hard, dont jugde me!!

[Hayashi]

Don't extend your argument on Hunchbacks to 'Mediums' as a class, it's completely inaccurate.

The Trebuchet and Centurion occupy the same role as a Dragon - flanking, scout killing and close support.

The Cicada is basically a light mech that got forced into the Medium class for no real reason.

And yes, Hunchbacks seem hideously underpowered. The Swayback will generally lose to a Cat K2 with 4 Large Lasers, the AC/20 version loses to a Jager/Cataphract, and the missile variant to the rest of the Catapults.

That's not to say that the Mediums suck, that is to say that the Hunchback specifically is bad in the same roles that Heavies can fill.

Look at the COM-1B, COM-3A and SDR-5K. It would be horribly inaccurate to say Light suck because of them... when lights also include RVN-3Ls and JR7-F...

[Yokaiko]

I've outscored a splatcats in a fang.

On the scale of 5 kills a piece, his 5th was me.

[Braggart]

I used to think that meds were decent, until i got bought an awesome, then a phract and realized how much more damage I can do, and blow out a mediums side torso in 2 volleys effectively crippling them.

neither your cent, nor your hunchback are even bothersome to me. My AC20 + 3 Large laser just tore your side torso out before you had a chance to do damage. Now i let you live because you are gonna run around with a couple medium lasers tickling us, and i focus on the real threat, another mech like myself.

you can have good games as a medium, No one claims differently. But to play a medium well, you might as well be playing a light. or going to a heavy can carry a dominating level of alpha strike damage.

I still believe that Tonnage limited drops would make mediums very worth while. But when you drop on river city and it just so happens that the lightest mech on each team is a 50 ton medium. The damage he will dish is laughable to the rest of the group. Which is usually when the medium deals the most damage, he lasts the entire match because everyone focused on the real threats.

[MeiSooHaityu]

You are wrong OP. Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad

I think their role isn't as defined in black and white like the other weight classes, but they are never to be underestimated.

[PropagandaWar]

Hayashi, on 05 April 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Don't extend your argument on Hunchbacks to 'Mediums' as a class, it's completely inaccurate.

The Trebuchet and Centurion occupy the same role as a Dragon - flanking, scout killing and close support.

The Cicada is basically a light mech that got forced into the Medium class for no real reason.

And yes, Hunchbacks seem hideously underpowered. The Swayback will generally lose to a Cat K2 with 4 Large Lasers, the AC/20 version loses to a Jager/Cataphract, and the missile variant to the rest of the Catapults.

That's not to say that the Mediums suck, that is to say that the Hunchback specifically is bad in the same roles that Heavies can fill.

Look at the COM-1B, COM-3A and SDR-5K. It would be horribly inaccurate to say Light suck because of them... when lights also include RVN-3Ls and JR7-F...

Lets see in my SP I've done over 1000 damage on several occasions. I've watched my buddies 4p clear 1000 damage. I consistantly score in the top four of a game in my SP so I'm thinking its not underpowered. My Cent can throw down quite well.You wanna run fast grab a treb or cent. I would pilot a treb but the turning ability and lack of arm movement is terrible. You want to talk flanking then you need to be a Crow. You dont need to go 130 to flank not even close.

[Outlaw]

As a medium mech pilot, i disagree. The Hunchback is a very viable design, unfortunately most pilots think they are obligated to fight at close range thinking they have the capabilities of a splat cat or other close range specialized designs. In short, like many arguments dont blame the tool, blame the user.

[PraetorRUS]

Hayashi, on 05 April 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

That's not to say that the Mediums suck, that is to say that the Hunchback specifically is bad in the same roles that Heavies can fill.

The thing is- mediums are not supposed to play a heavies role. And yes, mediums, in general, loose to heavies, because it's how it should be!

You bring mediums to protect your assaults/heavies from lights and to flank enemy lines to spread panic hitting enemies backs. If you want to duel heavies- don't pilot mediums, take heavy or assault.

[Trauglodyte]

Hayashi, on 05 April 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Don't extend your argument on Hunchbacks to 'Mediums' as a class, it's completely inaccurate.

The Trebuchet and Centurion occupy the same role as a Dragon - flanking, scout killing and close support.

The Cicada is basically a light mech that got forced into the Medium class for no real reason.

And yes, Hunchbacks seem hideously underpowered. The Swayback will generally lose to a Cat K2 with 4 Large Lasers, the AC/20 version loses to a Jager/Cataphract, and the missile variant to the rest of the Catapults.

That's not to say that the Mediums suck, that is to say that the Hunchback specifically is bad in the same roles that Heavies can fill.

Look at the COM-1B, COM-3A and SDR-5K. It would be horribly inaccurate to say Light suck because of them... when lights also include RVN-3Ls and JR7-F...

The thing is, though, that they SHOULD lose to the Heavies 1v1. A Swayback (50 tons) vs a 4 Lrg Laser Cat (65 tons) is generating much more heat while simultaneously losing the armor war, the range war, and the heat efficiency war. Granted, it is winning the alpha strike contest with 45 damage vs 36 damage. But the added armor and range clearly make up for that on top of the fact that you'll never be able to put enough DHSs on the Swayback to make it comfortable while maintaining any level of speed.

Furthermore, this isn't a 1v1 game but if you can kill a much heavier mech, esp an Assault, while dying, you've done well. But, again, if you're in the scrum trying to go toe to toe with mechs heavier then you, you're doing it all wrong.



PS> Yes, non-4SP Hunchies suffer due to their <drum roll> HUNCH vulnerability. That's why you either pack in a Gauss and stay at range or you go with the 4SP to avoid that issue. Zombie Cents are fine no matter what and Trenchbuckets are jumping annoying POS that I want to boot stomp all of the time.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 05 April 2013 - 10:12 AM.

[DaZur]

@OP

If you are founding your assessment based purely upon current game-play/meta (i.e... deathmatch in sheep's clothing) you are 100% correct in your postulation. That said, the long-term goal of this game is hinged precariously upon the success of community warfare, of which the Mediums will have their meta roll and as such will essentially be a requirement...

Also a factor in the future, with the continued improvement in registered damage, lights will not be able to square up like they do now and will be forced to assume pure scout/harasser rolls and mediums will then be the only middle-ground solutions on the battlefield.

[EyeOne]

I also (as most people) disagree. The Medium mech play is fine and a lot of fun. I pilot mainly Medium Mechs (Centurions and Hunchbacks) and I don't see a problem. You do however have to adjust your play style. The Devs said that "every class would be viable" not "every class will have the same play style"

Sometimes in a Centurion or Hunch you just have to work a little harder to not be the center of attention. Let the Stalker and the Atlas go first, that's their job. But don't leave them either. Stay right there with them, or flank and assist them and take down the enemy as fast as possible. That is how you should work.

If you are a Treb stay back and give firesupport but don't stay waaaay far back. Trebs move fast and can re position very quickly. Stay close enough to the fight to be able to read what is going on and move when you need to to get a better shot. You are not just fire support, you are mobile fire support.

[TruePoindexter]

Davers, on 04 April 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

What stinks is how Heavy mechs just have better hard points. They are more symmetrical. Compare Catapults to Hunchbacks. Every Catapult could lose half it's mech and still have half a mech left. Hunchbacks lose RT and they are basically neutered. And the 4SP would be more effective as a Jenner-D.

I would argue part of the charm of the Hunchback is the inherit asymmetry. Hunchbacks need only expose their right shoulder to fire their primary weapons - a Catapult must expose its entire body.

Besides the Trebuchet is actually fairly symmetrical although favoring arm over torso weapons.

Personally I find I love my Mediums - Hunchbacks in particular. They are difficult to use though and unforgiving of mistakes which I think is the problem people have with them. You have to be careful with your placement as you don't have the speed of a light usually to get out of trouble while not having the armor of a heavy or assault to ride it out.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 05 April 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Chazer]

Well said EyeOne. I think currently the people that are having difficulty with the medium weight class are struggling to find situations where they best fit into. It seems that people only have 2 criteria for judging mech usefullness, speed(lights) and power(heavy/assault).

[Training Instructor]

I think one of the issues is that some of the mediums really need an xl engine to mount an effective weapons payload and still have maneuverability, but this drastically reduces their survivability given the lower armor values compared to heavies.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

It's ok OP... Diversity was "Their position at the time."

[TruePoindexter]

Training Instructor, on 05 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

I think one of the issues is that some of the mediums really need an xl engine to mount an effective weapons payload and still have maneuverability, but this drastically reduces their survivability given the lower armor values compared to heavies.

You definitely do not need to have an XL to mount good weapons:

4SP 5 ML 2 SSRM2 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3a60ed72b18a69f
4H 5 ML 1 UAC5 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aea76091b79e3e2
4G 3 ML 1 Gauss http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a7580ea3633b3f8
4P 7 ML 2 MPL http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ad12cacaa2b8fb0

Hrmmm... never realized how I throw ML's around like candy.

[DaZur]

Training Instructor, on 05 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

I think one of the issues is that some of the mediums really need an xl engine to mount an effective weapons payload and still have maneuverability, but this drastically reduces their survivability given the lower armor values compared to heavies.

Agree to a point...

In the current deathmatch'esk meta, expedite kills is a high premium, thus the birth of the high-alpha boats. Once the meta expands with CW and actual meta-roles are realized it's going to be more important to field a balanced load-out versus the present flavor of the day.

[Esplodin]

I've piloted every weight class now - with at least 3 variants mastered in everything but assaults - 6 in Lights, 5 in Meds, and 3 in heavies, 0 Assaults. I only have highlander for the lulz, but still have a positive K/D ratio . Heck, my first mastered trio was Cicadas (@ 7-10 fps mind you before they fixed that). My completely biased opinion:

1) Each weight class has a different mindset to drive correctly (not necessarily successfully). If something sucks - that's not the weight class for you. However, piloting them all will make you appreciate where the vulnerabilities are that you can exploit when you do find your home.

2) Each chassis has positives as well as negatives that must be understood and compensated for to be successful. Meds = jack of all trades, master of none. The fill all roles "good enough", and exceptional piloting can mitigate the deficiencies.

3) Competition is level play is about who had the best concentrated damage, not DPS. I'm really hoping this isn't the final state for the game, because this ALWAYS positions the heat efficient Assaults and heavy alpha Lights in the best places. Sad, since I would like to see more tactical and strategic battles then alpha measuring contests. It is also arguing different things under the same topic. All chassis should not be viable for competition level play, because it kills variety for the causal players.

4) This game is turning into an arms race to the fat chassis because of RR being removed. There is literally very few downsides to driving an assault other then what map you find yourself on. Meds ruled the battlefield in lore not because they were exceptionally great, but it was less costly to field them over the same quantity/firepower of heavier mechs.

Edited by Esplodin, 05 April 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

DaZur, on 05 April 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Agree to a point...

In the current deathmatch'esk meta, expedite kills is a high premium, thus the birth of the high-alpha boats. Once the meta expands with CW and actual meta-roles are realized it's going to be more important to field a balanced load-out versus the present flavor of the day.

High alphas have been here since the dawn of time and for better or for worse are not going away. What's killing fast is precision fire on someone not distributing their damage around their mech. If there's one thing I've noticed since coming back from my hiatus is that people spend far too much time standing still and getting shot in the same place over and over again - not that I'm complaining

Edited by TruePoindexter, 05 April 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[GT Hawk]

I always love when people try to say Mediums are useless. Not my fault you don't know how to use one. Many many many many times my medium whoops assaults and heavy's at there own game. If you can use the mech right it can be dam good. I also pilot dragons by the way, and this kind of post also pops up for dragons.

And I love the posts that say if I am good in a medium I would be amazing in a heavy. Again I have some heavy's, tried some of the BIG builds, and I can't do crap with them. they don't play well for my style.

so complain all you want about mediums, I will keep using them to great effect at your expense. Also note these same arguments use to come up in mw4. And back then I brawled with a uzi, and I would whoop most players in that thing. So hey keep complaining while I keep killing.