154 replies to this topic

[aniviron]

Vermaxx, on 06 April 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

The Hunch 4SP has two hunches. Which one do you shoot? Name the mech that can replicate both the weapon load AND symmetry of the 4SP. It's not about raw hard points, its about the ability to lose half your mech and still have half your weapons.

Let's see, off the top of my head we have:
JR7-D, CDA-x5, the Jaeger with the missiles, STK-3F, AWS-8T, AWS-8R.

I'm pretty sure that at least one other Cicada, Stalker, and a Trebuchet can pull this off too.

p.s. as someone who has mastery plus 100k spare xp on my 4SP, I will tell you that losing half your weapons is a pretty big deal, and you don't survive for long after you do, because you are such an appetizing morsel. And believe you me, those side torsos go fast!

[Lyff]

The 4p is perfect, a lot of firepower with a great speed, catapult and jager can fear this, it's very easy to destroy their cockpits.

I have a friend who pilot this mech wonderfully, one day he was the last guy of our team, five guy in the ennemy team (catapult, jager, awesome and 2 hunchies), and he made embush, running and hiding buildings to buildings, and he destroy all the ennemy team by 1vs1 little matches.

[Zaptruder]

People that complain about the hunch on the huncback simply haven't figured out that half their mech is a shield for the hunch.

[Saint Rigid]

I believe that the Hunchback suffers from some of the same current short-coming as the dragon. Both have a particular sector that is oversized... and neither really seem to benefit from it. In particular, the explanation for the Dragon's large "gut" is that it was designed to make the dragon's front profile smaller... but it doesn't feel like it's any shorter. The Dragon's hitbox makeover helped a lot... but it seemed to only make it "thinner"... not actually shorter. I think this idea applies to the Hunchback's "hunch" as well.

Perhaps looking at size as the overall volume of the mech comparable to the other 50 tonners... but with such a big boxy section sucking up all of the mass... it doesn't really seem like the rest of the mech is small enough to justify it. Not to mention that the "hunch" looks bigger in game than what I have seen from tabletop (could be wrong on that one).

Basically, add the wonderful little quirks for greater verticle torso movement or some improved acceleration (personally I think torso movement speed should be at the top of the list) but also consider shrinking the overall mech (and or "hunch") to make it a little smaller... (call it the Munch-back if you will... Munchkin Hunchback lol)

Additionally, I wanted to bring up an interesting point about the Hitboxes though. It seems that the Front RT extends backwards... which I think is actually a benefit of the design. It gives a very low motivation for anyone to put any armor points on the Rear RT, thus adding armor to the Front RT. While I think this is interesting, I don't know if it "makes up" for the concurrent disadvantages of a very large (and high priority) target. I also think it ould be interesting if the center torso took over the section underneath the hunch on the front...


As far as weapons go (another gripe shared by the dragon... coincidentally), there is some SERIOUS balance (like inner-ear balance) issues. Disregarding the 4SP... none of the hunchbacks have a single LT or CT weapon hard point... or more than one hardpoint in the left arm. Even when you include the limited "one crit space" hard point in the head,,, that means that you only have access to two weapons on your entire left side of your body... INCLUDING your center torso and head! This appears to be a problem for two reasons: one, the other 50 ton mechs have a better spread of weapons... and two, the "hunch" seems to not hold as much firepower as it would need to in order to justify it's downfalls.

The hunchback is essentially the FIREPOWER 50 tonner, but it seems a little lackluster at the moment. The 4P has a sufficient amount of firepower in it's hunch to warrant it's large size...... but the other variants don't seem up to par. The 4G can be nice with an AC20... but the other ballistic hard points are completely negligible .. and even if it had 4 ballistic slots in the hunch AND machine guns weren't so bad... it wouldn't be worth it. Multiple Ballistic Hard Points in the same giant right torso are NOT useful! Relocating two Ballistic points to the CT would be much more useful, for instance. Or removing the RA energy point from the 4J and putting it on the LA. Overall... most of the hunchbacks seem to be lacking in hard points. The 4P has 9, compared to the 4G and 4H that only have 6.

I say...

• move the Right Arm energy hardpoint on the 4J to the Left Arm
  
• slide the two energy hardpoints on the 4H into the center torso
  
• Reduce the ballistic hardpoints in the RT on the 4G to 2, but add 2 ballistic hardpoints in the CT
  
• Leave the 4P and 4SP the same, and work out the quirks from there

Furthermore... do not forget that there are TWO other mechs in the exact same weight bracket... let alone the rest of the Medium category. When you have three mechs at the same tonnage there is a good chance that one of them is going to get the short end of the stick. You have to try and balance 12+ variants to be approximately effective! That's a daunting task if ever there was one.

P.S.- Please fix machine guns. That is all.

[Mild Monkey]

Really, I do enjoy this discussion, because it is a discussion about my favored chassis, the venerable and fearsome Hunchback. However, I do not understand the core point: What do you want to achieve with this discussion? Mechs are different, some are easier to master than others, some are meant for boating (although I think boats are despicable), others are strikers and finishers like the Hunchback or they are true brawlers like the Atlas.

The Hunchback needs the weaknesses it features in order to render it unique, to make it difficult to master. Why? Because it is an easy to pilot, easy to aim platform with a more than decent medium-to-close alpha punch. Having a distinctive hunch is a drawback for all the advantages it has over other medium chassis (They, in turn, have other advantages and drawbacks). As I have stated before, the concentration of the main weapon group in one easily distinguishable spot can also be turned into an advantage by clever pilots. You know that 9 out of 10 cases the enemy is going to aim for your hunch.
You know he will try to go for your RIGHT torso, the maneuvers are limited and predictable and offer you a wide range of offensive and defensive responses.
All of the aforementioned is applicable to a 1/1 situation. When you face multiple targets, you will want to use your speed and the environment to withdraw from engagement. Furthermore, when facinge multiple opponents, you already have made a lot of mistakes and deserve to die, because any mech of any class fighting against 2 opponents of equal or nigh equal skill will most likely die.
Always be aware of your role. Stay with the biggies, scare of the scouts but don't give them chase, strike and withdraw using your environment. You are kind of a satellite for the big boys, you guard their perimeters in battle and remove threats (specifically, you add your firepower to finish damaged enemies trying to disengage from a fight where "your" heavy or assault has beaten them to pulp but can't pursue them). Prevent those more nimble enemies to return and to attack your heavy's or assault's back.
This, in a nutshell, is the role of any Hunchback on the battlefield.

[Irvine]

The hunch has no real role in this current metagame, look at competitive teams and see how many hunchbacks they field. And before you start foaming at the mouth I ran an elited 4sp for 3-4 months. Can it be effective? Hell yes! Is it fun to play, especially in an urban environment? Hell yes again! Can what it does be done better by a CN9/Treb/Fast heavy? Sadly yes again. CN9-A/AL can do the same thing as a hunch 4sp and be faster and tougher.

When weight based matchmaker was removed mediums(as usual) took the brunt of PGI's flailing attempt to balance this game.

[Appogee]

Poor Hunchback... Already disfigured, and now this.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

Hell yes! Is it fun to play, especially in an urban environment? Hell yes again! Can what it does be done better by a CN9/Treb/Fast heavy? Sadly yes again. CN9-A/AL can do the same thing as a hunch 4sp and be faster and tougher.

Only because SRMs were just so ******** powerful.  Now that they're more reasonable the non-SRM boat builds are a hell of a lot more competitive within the medium mech range.

Edited by TOGSolid, 07 April 2013 - 03:07 AM.

[Mild Monkey]

Irvine, on 07 April 2013 - 02:52 AM, said:

The hunch has no real role in this current metagame, look at competitive teams and see how many hunchbacks they field. And before you start foaming at the mouth I ran an elited 4sp for 3-4 months. Can it be effective? Hell yes! Is it fun to play, especially in an urban environment? Hell yes again! Can what it does be done better by a CN9/Treb/Fast heavy? Sadly yes again. CN9-A/AL can do the same thing as a hunch 4sp and be faster and tougher.

When weight based matchmaker was removed mediums(as usual) took the brunt of PGI's flailing attempt to balance this game.

Gods below, foaming at the mouth? Me? Nah. *wipes froth from the corner of his mouth.
Most competitive teams... Most competitive teams don't even allow any other classes but atlasses and raven 3Ls (with the possible exception of stalkers and poptartaphracts).
This is reasonable in terms of the current metagame and if no weight drop restrictions have been put in effect prior to a match. Is it fun? Hells nah! Is it intended? Not if you believe the core game concept as stated by PGI. So I really don't care for what self proclaimed pros are saying. They are mostly better pilots than I am, agreed, but they also exploit the metagame to the max which I think makes them more effective yet dishonest.

Sorry, I also disagree with your comparison of other mediums to the hunchback. they are different, I fail to see how they are better. You may be right though, you just aren't in my limited experience.

[Inyc]

PropagandaWar, on 07 April 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

Trebs are nowhere near as good as a Hunchback lmao. They lack turning ability, arm movement and torso twist. The only thing going good for them is the get me the hell out of here engine. There torsos are huge. You don't know what your talking about sorry.

Turning is linked to speed. The faster your engine, the faster you turn (and twist too IIRC).

[Mild Monkey]

Inyc, on 07 April 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Turning is linked to speed. The faster your engine, the faster you turn (and twist too IIRC).

While this is true, the twist angle and the arm movement range of a Hunchback is superior to any other mech currently in this game. I can perform 180° shots and even 200° shots while running forward at full speed, with at least 2 pinpoint energy weapons in each arm for each variant of the Hunchback chassis. This firing arc is unique and it lets me perform very well against any mech class (with the possible exception of a murder of Ravens 3L. There#s a reason that a flock of ravens is called "murder"!)

[TheSteelRhino]

The hbk is a terrible chassis to put an xl in. It has HUGE side torsos (obviously right)

Look. U can make it tougher. Stick with std engines. Use CASE with a gauss.

I do think it needs some quirks. Like "toughness". Ie...For some reason it can carry more armour or just take dmg maybe? Or its just got great turning radius even at top speed. Or really boost max engine size on 4 sp. in early beta that thing was vicious moving at 105 or so.....

But if u put an xl engine in anything but the 4sp you are asking for an xl blowout

And even with 4 sp i tend to not use an xl engine nowadays. Just not fast enough to be worth the fragility of th XL. I do agree. They do need a bit of a buff.

You want a faster medium go with a treb or centurion

[PropagandaWar]

TOGSolid, on 07 April 2013 - 03:06 AM, said:

Only because SRMs were just so ******** powerful. Now that they're more reasonable the non-SRM boat builds are a hell of a lot more competitive within the medium mech range.

I still school mechs with my hunchies srm's. WTF are you smoking. The srm 4 is one ton heavier than a medium laser, has half the rang,e only does 1 point of damage more, requires ammo and only cost one less heat. So um lets see. THE SPLASH WAS F'd up. Either lower the heat or raise the damage to 2. Everyone cried about lerms now they are gone. So now they cry about hacking or ballistics sheesh. I think the people that complain about balance every other second don't understand what a tight rope is used for.

[Koniving]

Default Hunchback 4G goes into battle. Recorded as part of the upcoming introduction to chassis/variants series I'm working on. I'm collecting footage of stock builds and how they perform in battle.
Skip to 2:38

4 kills in the first run.
In its element of urban environments, it performs superbly. Take it out of its designed location and you are going to have issues.

"The Hunchback is a respected and feared Reunification War-era street fighter that has been in production since its introduction in 2572. Built for urban combat and close range brawling, this BattleMech has the heavy armor and weaponry to stand up against any foe in the dense cover of a city environment."

It is a city defense unit. It is also useful as a command lance escort. It is not intended to be an open field brawler. Every mech has its designed roles.

In comparison, Centurions are designed specifically to escort Trebuchets.

Upcoming! Hunchbacks, two-player console split-screen style! (Two players recording with side by side vertical splitscreen.)

Edited by Koniving, 07 April 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[WANTED]

I notice it does better in maps with more cover as mentioned above. Those open maps are hard to do well in the hunch if you get exposed out in the open at any point ( Like Alpine, etc ). I try to use cover as much as possible with my 92.7kph 4J Hunch. Sometimes there are exceptions like last night on Alpine I was able to flank behind the enemy and I took an Atlas out in an alpha strike from behind and then helped my other 2 teamates finish off another Atlas and Dragon or Jager I can't remember.

With Pinpoint Elite upgrade I can hit targeted areas easier.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

4SP isn't a real Hunchback so it should be exempt from any possible quirks.

(yes, it exists in BT and MW:O)

But it's already considered my the general populus to be the best variant.
The G, H, and J are the ones that actually need help.

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 07 April 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Rayah]

Zaptruder, on 07 April 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

People that complain about the hunch on the huncback simply haven't figured out that half their mech is a shield for the hunch.

Seriously, use your left side to soak damage for your right. It's that simple.

Edited by Rayzor, 07 April 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[Coralld]

Mediums overall should get a small size reduction and buff up their turning radius so they are more agile. As for the Hunchy 4G, 4H, 4P, and 4J, should also get another small size reduction to their hunch.

[PropagandaWar]

WANTED, on 07 April 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

I notice it does better in maps with more cover as mentioned above. Those open maps are hard to do well in the hunch if you get exposed out in the open at any point ( Like Alpine, etc ). I try to use cover as much as possible with my 92.7kph 4J Hunch. Sometimes there are exceptions like last night on Alpine I was able to flank behind the enemy and I took an Atlas out in an alpha strike from behind and then helped my other 2 teamates finish off another Atlas and Dragon or Jager I can't remember.

With Pinpoint Elite upgrade I can hit targeted areas easier.

I agree I never treat my mech as anything over a medium range. They just aren't designed for it.

[Utilyan]

I love worst mech threads........sometimes its the only thing that inspires me to play.

There should be like a pinned worst mech of the week.....

Like if they were to release the stats/data collected so we know whats the worst one.