354 replies to this topic

[One Medic Army]

Going to point out how royally R&R would screw with Elo.
Say I have 2 heavy mechs:
A Catapult K2 with XL engine, Endo, DHS, and 2-4 expensive weapons.
A Catapult C1 purely for farming money with which to fund playing with the K2. Standard engine, DHS/Endo/lasers.

Now I do better in the K2 than I do in the C1. If I play the C1 to build up money my Elo goes down. Then I switch to my K2 and start rolling over people because my Elo is low and I'm using a mech full of expensive tech people can't afford to run all the time.

This leads to getting rolled while building cash, and then rolling others until you burn though it. It becomes harder and harder to have an even battle when there's such a difference in combat ability between people who have enough CBills to run the shiny toys and those who don't/can't.

[TOGSolid]

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I loved the fact that I decided to only upgrade heatsinks and never armour to fibrous because of the price.

The only reason people never upgrade to Ferro is because it's total dogshit compared to Endo and that has nothing to do with R&R costs.

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I never wanted to accidently shoot team mates

If it took R&R costs to do that then you're just an ******* and a bad teammate.

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I really appreciated all the different mech builds as most people ran conservative.

Only bad players who couldn't earn money did because they were being forced to run poverty mechs. Good players built whatever the **** they wanted and laughed all the way to the bank.

Edited by TOGSolid, 07 April 2013 - 01:23 AM.

[ShadowDarter]

we need R&R back fast, a lot of people are using cheese builds that could never exist under a full cost R&R system...

PGI WE NEED R&R BACK...

[Xenois Shalashaska]

TOGSolid, on 07 April 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

The only reason people never upgrade to Ferro is because it's total dogshit compared to Endo and that has nothing to do with R&R costs.

If it took R&R costs to do that then you're just an ******* and a bad teammate.

Only bad players who couldn't earn money did because they were being forced to run poverty mechs. Good players built whatever the **** they wanted and laughed all the way to the bank.

Dude. Your missing the point. Fibrous was a costly repair rate and not because of the upgrade cost. Every time you shot a friendly at the start or accidently bump into them you would appreciate the damage done and help that person. The mechs you call poverty are conservative. The so called good players/ LRM boater/ Heavy Ammo comsumption and XL players all ran the risk they know of. Most of the people who won matches are actually loosing money or breaking even because of expensive mech build. Then you want to know a secret that propelled team work. Its R&R

[MustrumRidcully]

Sudden Reversal, on 06 April 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

What people don't seem to understand is that the previous incarnation of R&R was not the be all and end all, it was still in flux and the values were in need of tweaking. I seriously in all honesty when it was removed, fully expected it to come back after adjustment and to think that it will not be in is strike one for MWO. Strike two is ECM and although at least the jury is still out and they have promised modification it's not looking promising.

PGI threw the baby out with the bath water when they got rid of Repair and Rearm aka Risk and Reward wholesale and this game is all the more poorer for it.

The short-comings of R&R were not that it requires a few different numbers or tweak.

Pretty much nothing in the old R&R system was a good idea.
Free repair and rearm? Exploitable.
Punishing people for torso-twisting so they live longer but have higher repair bill? Absurd.
Encouraging People to power down in a darn corner instead of fighting because the rewards for losing are better than the rewards for winning with a banged up mech? Fun-Killer for everyone.
Rich Players get richer because they can afford superior mechs and keep winning and pay off the repair cost for those mechs, while poor players stay poor because they can't hope to win against players with superior mechs? Imbalanced.

None of this is a question of tweaking a few values, unless tweaking includes "let's remove it".

---

And I wouldn't get my hopes up that R&R is going to have a comeback. There is an ASK-THE-DEVS reply clearly stating they don't want to reintroduce R&R. Of course, this might not mean all that much, after all, they plan 3rd person perspective and they introduced coolant flush despite initial assurances they wouldn't.

Sybreed, on 06 April 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

funny how people are having a hard time understanding this?

It's easy to understand, but it requires believing that the premise "good concept" is true. I do not think so. The idea of Repair & Rearm in this game is not a good idea.

A fundamental aspect of MW:O is that it's essentialy an arena based battle where only one can emerge victorious and we fight to the bitter end. Not playing it like that means having less fun, because it leads to people powering down in corners instead of fighting. We play for the fight.

Can Community Warfare change something about that? I am not so optimistic it can. It would basically require changing from one fundamental assumption: That only equally strong groups fight each other. If you don't even have the option of out-maneuvering your enemy and attacking weakly defended posts and avoiding strongly defended posts, then Repair & Rearm will always lead to the severe losses. A battle fought between two equally strong units is a costly endeavour and no one will get rich in the process, both sides will take severe losses.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 07 April 2013 - 01:56 AM.

[Xenois Shalashaska]

Yeah the system was exploited with suicide farmers. That was the biggest weakness. Then farmers would most likely sell MechWarrior accounts. If they just added a cost for repairing armour and "armour" internals it would be incentive enough to play a team game.

Edited by Xenois Shalashaska, 07 April 2013 - 02:03 AM.

[mania3c]

Punishing players for bad play never worked..and never will... since pen and paper games, was always better to reward good play..but don't punish bad play..

So TBH, we should start at this point.. R&R is great idea but bad implementation.. same logic/consequences can be applied just with different approach..rewarding players.

First of all, PGI should lower overall credits earning and add another type of earning.. for example.. default 100k credits at the beginning of the match..and basically repair and rearm cost would be subtracted from this pool.. better you play, less CP will be removed from this pool but never go to negative numbers.. more powerful equipment would cost more upon damaging. For example full damaged AC would remove 20k from pool, while destroyed small laser 2k ..or something like that..in the end, it would be possible to have guaranteed bonus CP just because you are using cheap mech with cheap weapons and armor.. while bringing powerful weapons would put you into the risk, that you will very often end with 0 bonus CP..

It's basically same logic, just different mindset for players.

Just a idea.

EDIT: there is of course a risk that players would mount cheap weapons, be bad and still have bonus CP..while players with powerful mechs would be ending game with low bonus CP even if they helped the team more than these weak mechs.. But I believe they could handle this in some way. Maybe people with more expansive equipment would have % cp bonus? basically risk vs reward.. if you play good, you can earn much more CP than average john on average mech..but you could easily earn less if you just can't play effectively with expansive weapons and equipment.

Edited by mania3c, 07 April 2013 - 02:06 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

TOGSolid, on 07 April 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

The only upside to R&R was that you could strip AFKers bare and jack their repair costs through the roof, causing them to lose money on the match.

The best thing for the AFKer is that he can safely AFK in a trial mech and on one can hurt him.

[Ptownsen]

idl ike to have R&R back. Would be good if they would implement it in the CW Faction plays. ther`s no need to put it back in in "normal" 12 man pugging. But would be a awesome addition to CW.

[MustrumRidcully]

ShadowDarter, on 07 April 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

we need R&R back fast, a lot of people are using cheese builds that could never exist under a full cost R&R system...

PGI WE NEED R&R BACK...

Seriously, what cheese builds have horrendous R&R cost?
The 6 PPC Stalker?
The Dual AC/20 Jagermech?
The Streak Cat?

What will make these mechs more costly to run then, say, a Cataphract with 1 Ultra AC/5, 1 LB10-X AC, 2 MGs and 2 Flamers?

[Xenois Shalashaska]

mania3c, on 07 April 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

Punishing players for bad play never worked..and never will... since pen and paper games, was always better to reward good play..but don't punish bad play..

So TBH, we should start at this point.. R&R is great idea but bad implementation.. same logic/consequences can be applied just with different approach..rewarding players.

First of all, PGI should lower overall credits earning and add another type of earning.. for example.. default 100k credits at the beginning of the match..and basically repair and rearm cost would be subtracted from this pool.. better you play, less CP will be removed from this pool but never go to negative numbers.. more powerful equipment would cost more upon damaging. For example full damaged AC would remove 20k from pool, while destroyed small laser 2k ..or something like that..in the end, it would be possible to have guaranteed bonus CP just because you are using cheap mech with cheap weapons and armor.. while bringing powerful weapons would put you into the risk, that you will very often end with 0 bonus CP..

It's basically same logic, just different mindset for players.

Just a idea.

That is a pretty good idea. I will just add my own to that. Hopefully when this game receives a lobby system. With in this lobby system we can see who we are dropping with and chatt about what weapons and mech load outs for strategic purpose. In this lobby it should include a R&R price limit threshold for repairs of mech after combat. but also include a Drop weight limit. If drop weight limit is underweight then the whole team receives a bonus to your summary winning and if they exceed the drop weight the summary winning is the same as normal.

[DCLXVI]

id rather the downside of an ac/20 be the repair cost rather than low crit hit point. id rather see the downside of ultraac/5 be the repair cost rather than that jamming meta game we used to have hahahaha oh god I could go on. r&r is the bt way

[Corvus Antaka]

I miss it all the time. Still hoping itll return one day. Maybe with a 10-50K fluctuation and cap at 50K so we dont get ridiculous R&R numbers again. I miss the aspect to gameplay it added. all said though its probably not worth the hassle to bother with it.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

This game would benefit greatly with a Working, non-new player punishing system.

The old R&R system PGI had was utter garbage, no one is going to argue that. However the concept itself was quite nice.

Just for an example, consider this scenario.

New players generally start playing the game with trial mechs, so the R&R system does not affect them whatsoever in this stage.
When they do get enough money from the cadet bonus, their first mech is generally quite lowtech/simple. Standard Engines, normal beam lasers like medium lasers, maybe an SRM without Artemis, stanard armor and internal structure, SHS, etc.

That type of level 1 tech equipment should be UTTERLY dirt cheap to repair, to the point that it takes very little to repair it. As the player begins to acquire more wealth, so does his/her mech acquire more upgrades. Maybe he/she has moved on to endo steel, DHS and high tech weapons like PPCs and Gauss rifles. Well now that his/her mech is now much more dangerous, so his/her is repair cost. Sure he/she has the potential to earn much more money through damage and kills with his/her deadlier mech, but now he/she must also use their accumulated skills to keep those repair costs down.

A higher skill players runs a risk reward with using more expensive tech. More potential money with a high tech mech, but as those upgrades get poured on, so do the elevated repair costs. Also, what people need to keep in mind is that destroying a mech (especially with an XL engine) with higher tech components means MUCH more salvage. So while it may cost you more money, you also gain much more money through keeping that XL engine intact and salvaging it. True Risk v Reward.

Now I'm not saying bring back the old R&R which was pretty much a crap system (especially free 75% ammo, which lead to avoiding the over-the-top ammo costs). Hell, maybe just bring back a repair system only, and keep free rearm. Yeah, lets do that. Keep rearm free. But introduce some type of repair system.

If you defeat a team/mech with very minimal damage, you should earn a higher net profit. If you run a low tech mech, you should benefit with a higher net profit through very minimal repair costs. (such as standard armor being nearly free to repair, to help influence players using smart tactics such as torso twising to spread damage instead of allowing internals to be damaged.)


Would you not like a system like that to give the game greater depth/rewards?


Again, NO ONE wants to see the old R&R system return. Having said that for the 4th or 5th time in this post (because people do not read) having some type of repair system (that isn't a tax or punishment) would give the game a significant amount of depth.


But say players don't want R&R at all, regardless of whether its a good working system. Then just allow an option to turn if off, which then consequently reduces their income per match by some %. There, then they can never potentially lose money, but they may also not gain money as quickly (maybe about the same rate players do now, for instance). Then those players who want the immersion and Risk v Reward can turn it on, potentially earning significantly more money per match, or slightly less than expected.

Edited by mwhighlander, 07 April 2013 - 02:40 AM.

[Azrell]

Vapor Trail, on 06 April 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

I really like this idea. I'm going to take it and run with it.

Say, have a 30 minute lockdown period for a mech after a match. Every minute that ticks by, you get 1/30th of your R&R bill taken off. Paying the repair bill ends the lockdown.

Lets say you wind up having an R&R bill for a mech of 100,000 cbills. And you won a match and got paid 100,000 cbills.
So if you want to drop with the same mech immediately, it costs full R&R, and you will have made no cbills for that match.

But...

If you play three matches of 7 minutes apiece, in three other mechs, your repair bill for the first mech drops from 100,000 cbills to 30,000 cbills, meaning you made a profit of 70k. If you wait another 9 minutes before repairing, the repairs are free, and you get the full 100k from the drop the mech was in.

It puts pressure on the "high tech level" builds, because they're going to cost oodles to keep running, match after match, after match. And forces people to pay to be able to drop the same mech in game after game, unless they pay for multiple copies of the same mech (Which is pay for convenience...).

There could even be an MC leaseable (a lower-cost subscription type, rather than a high-cost purchase type) "Tech Team" which lowers the lockout time and increases the fraction of R&R shaved for every minute waited.

Fantastic idea. On top of everything else it give people a reason to own several of the same mech and have them fitted and rdy to go. Ether way it costs to have the your best mechs rdy for every match.

I would say take it even further and go 1 hour or more cool down, to reward people that stockpile mechs. Because the trial mechs are never on cool down you always have the "cheap" option should you want to keep grinding but you don't get the best all the time.

mwhighlander, on 07 April 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

This game would benefit greatly with a Working, non-new player punishing system.

The old R&R system PGI had was utter garbage, no one is going to argue that. However the concept itself was quite nice.

Just for an example, consider this scenario.

New players generally start playing the game with trial mechs, so the R&R system does not affect them whatsoever in this stage.
When they do get enough money from the cadet bonus, their first mech is generally quite lowtech/simple. Standard Engines, normal beam lasers like medium lasers, maybe an SRM without Artemis, stanard armor and internal structure, SHS, etc.

That type of level 1 tech equipment should be UTTERLY dirt cheap to repair, to the point that it takes very little to repair it. As the player begins to acquire more wealth, so does his/her mech acquire more upgrades. Maybe he/she has moved on to endo steel, DHS and high tech weapons like PPCs and Gauss rifles. Well now that his/her mech is now much more dangerous, so his/her is repair cost. Sure he/she has the potential to earn much more money through damage and kills with his/her deadlier mech, but now he/she must also use their accumulated skills to keep those repair costs down.

A higher skill players runs a risk reward with using more expensive tech. More potential money with a high tech mech, but as those upgrades get poured on, so do the elevated repair costs. Also, what people need to keep in mind is that destroying a mech (especially with an XL engine) with higher tech components means MUCH more salvage. So while it may cost you more money, you also gain much more money through keeping that XL engine intact and salvaging it. True Risk v Reward.

Now I'm not saying bring back the old R&R which was pretty much a crap system (especially free 75% ammo, which lead to avoiding the over-the-top ammo costs). Hell, maybe just bring back a repair system only, and keep free rearm. Yeah, lets do that. Keep rearm free. But introduce some type of repair system.

If you defeat a team/mech with very minimal damage, you should earn a higher net profit. If you run a low tech mech, you should benefit with a higher net profit through very minimal repair costs. (such as standard armor being nearly free to repair, to help influence players using smart tactics such as torso twising to spread damage instead of allowing internals to be damaged.)


Would you not like a system like that to give the game greater depth/rewards?


Again, NO ONE wants to see the old R&R system return. Having said that for the 4th or 5th time in this post (because people do not read) having some type of repair system (that isn't a tax or punishment) would give the game a significant amount of depth.


But say players don't want R&R at all, regardless of whether its a good working system. Then just allow an option to turn if off, which then consequently reduces their income per match by some %. There, then they can never potentially lose money, but they may also not gain money as quickly (maybe about the same rate players do now, for instance). Then those players who want the immersion and Risk v Reward can turn it on, potentially earning significantly more money per match, or slightly less than expected.

I would like to see the old R&R system return greatly. It gave balance to a game and made it actually feel like you are running a business as a merc. Grinding to get the another new mech got old 20 mechs ago. Now i just run the same one over and over or dont play at all.

[Tarl Cabot]

Should R&R be brought back to the game? Yes. Should it be brought back similar to its last incarnation? No, especially since PGI was footing most of the repair/rearm bill as it was.

I do like the suggestion that there should be a cost to drop immediately in the same mech that was severely damaged/destroyed in the last match. Think of it as a bribe to push the repair of your mech to the front of the line. MW4 Mercs had something similar to that, to hasten the repair of severely damaged mechs.

[TOGSolid]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 April 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

Seriously, what cheese builds have horrendous R&R cost?
The 6 PPC Stalker?
The Dual AC/20 Jagermech?
The Streak Cat?

What will make these mechs more costly to run then, say, a Cataphract with 1 Ultra AC/5, 1 LB10-X AC, 2 MGs and 2 Flamers?

Absolutely nothing and that's the part that the R&R supporters can't see because they live in a self-constructed fantasy land.

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Dude. Your missing the point. Fibrous was a costly repair rate and not because of the upgrade cost. Every time you shot a friendly at the start or accidently bump into them you would appreciate the damage done and help that person. The mechs you call poverty are conservative. The so called good players/ LRM boater/ Heavy Ammo comsumption and XL players all ran the risk they know of. Most of the people who won matches are actually loosing money or breaking even because of expensive mech build. Then you want to know a secret that propelled team work. Its R&R

No, no, and ******* no.  Nobody ran Ferro because it's ******* rubbish compared to Endo.  The repair costs had nothing to do with it.  The only reason even now to run FF is if you already have Endo in, are running cool, and have nothing better to do with your crit slots so that you can shove a bigger engine in.  That's it.  Outside of that one niche situation FF is complete garbage with or without repair costs.
There was no ******* risk to be had if you were good and that's the point you dunderheads are completely missing.  I never once felt like I was running a risk when I was running an XL Dragon or some other expensive to repair mech because I consistently won and never had to worry about money flow.  That is the entire problem with this system and you and the other R&R supporters are too deluded to see that.
Teamwork was never propelled by R&R.  Pugs were just as ******** then as they are now and almost nobody was playing more carefully just because of R&R.  You still saw people **** LRMs everywhere even though they had a 100% rearm cost and you still saw most every PUG blindly charge in only to die horribly.  Your entire argument is based on anecdotal hearsay that you've convinced yourself thoroughly of and does not reflect reality in the slightest.

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I do like the suggestion that there should be a cost to drop immediately in the same mech that was severely damaged/destroyed in the last match. Think of it as a bribe to push the repair of your mech to the front of the line. MW4 Mercs had something similar to that, to hasten the repair of severely damaged mechs.

This only hurts new and bad players.  Guys like me with two dozen mechs aren't gonna give a single **** about this and won't be hurt by it or play any more cautiously than normal.

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It gave balance to a game and made it actually feel like you are running a business as a merc.

Why did it bring balance?  How did it bring balance?
Oh right, it doesn't in the slightest and in reality you just want to roleplay as Ragdar Bloodballs: Super mercenary.

Again: R&R COSTS DO NOT WORK BECAUSE THEY ONLY PUNISH NEW AND BAD PLAYERS.

Edited by TOGSolid, 07 April 2013 - 03:32 AM.

[Xenois Shalashaska]

TOGSolid, on 07 April 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

Absolutely nothing and that's the part that the R&R supporters can't see because they live in a self-constructed fantasy land.


No, no, and ******* no. Nobody ran Ferro because it's ******* rubbish compared to Endo. The repair costs had nothing to do with it. The only reason even now to run FF is if you already have Endo in, are running cool, and have nothing better to do with your crit slots so that you can shove a bigger engine in. That's it. Outside of that one niche situation FF is complete garbage with or without repair costs.
There was no ******* risk to be had if you were good and that's the point you dunderheads are completely missing. I never once felt like I was running a risk when I was running an XL Dragon or some other expensive to repair mech because I consistently won and never had to worry about money flow. That is the entire problem with this system and you and the other R&R supporters are too deluded to see that.
Teamwork was never propelled by R&R. Pugs were just as ******** then as they are now and almost nobody was playing more carefully just because of R&R. You still saw people **** LRMs everywhere even though they had a 100% rearm cost and you still saw most every PUG blindly charge in only to die horribly. Your entire argument is based on anecdotal hearsay that you've convinced yourself thoroughly of and does not reflect reality in the slightest.

This only hurts new and bad players. Guys like me with two dozen mechs aren't gonna give a single **** about this and won't be hurt by it or play any more cautiously than normal.

Why did it bring balance? How did it bring balance?
Oh right, it doesn't in the slightest and in reality you just want to roleplay as Ragdar Bloodballs: Super mercenary.

Again: R&R COSTS DO NOT WORK BECAUSE THEY ONLY PUNISH NEW AND BAD PLAYERS.

You need a friend buddy. Fibrous and endo steel are two different mech upgrades. Understand I mean the cost of repair of standard armour and fibrous armour. Im guessing you never ran fibrous when R&R was in. It cost a lot to repair. R&R must be improved with a stimulus of free repair of 100k per person with add incentives for lower drop weights of the team.

[TOGSolid]

Maxed out my prior post, so on to a second post!

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Again, NO ONE wants to see the old R&R system return. Having said that for the 4th or 5th time in this post (because people do not read) having some type of repair system (that isn't a tax or punishment) would give the game a significant amount of depth.

Oh we read it, and it's still a stupid idea because it still only punishes bad players. Good players won't give a **** about the risks because they'll still have a superior cash flow. Bad players will be hesitant to run better builds due to that whole "getting blown up" thing. This is not fun and adds nothing to the game of any positive value. You're only hurting the player base by suggesting something like this.

The one thing you did say that was good was good by accident:

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If you defeat a team/mech with very minimal damage, you should earn a higher net profit.

This, I agree with, but the real solution is to have an end of round bonus for finishing with a mostly intact mech (with some restrictions to prevent afk farming). Not a huge one, but just a nice pat on the back for kicking *** and not coming out of it looking like swiss cheese. Bad players have something fun to work for and people who strive to not play stupid get a bonus for it. Everyone goes home happy.

Quote

Fibrous and endo steel are two different mech upgrades. Understand I mean the cost of repair of standard armour and fibrous armour. Im guessing you never ran fibrous when R&R was in. It cost a lot to repair.

Of course I didn't. BECAUSE IT'S A BAD UPGRADE, R&R costs had NOTHING to do with it. People avoided Ferro just because it's a ****** choice over Endo. The repair costs had nothing to do with it.

Edited by TOGSolid, 07 April 2013 - 03:45 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khanublikhan, on 06 April 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

Heh. It was me who made that "cup runneth over" remark.

I'm not actually playing that much. I am a Founder. I have been using my Founder's bonus. I own four Founder's Mechs, four standard mechs and three hero mechs. I have very little cash mind yo - about 5M cash left.

It just feels slightly odd to me to be owning so many mechs. I feel like I am playing MechCommander as opposed to a Mechwarrior game by having such a choice. A topic for another day perhaps.

This is a very good point. How does a Lone Wolf have the overhead to pay for the upkeep of a fleet of multi million C-bill Mechs? Are you named Stark or Wayne? I have 2 Atlas A Jager and & Jenner.That's around 25 Million C-bills of war machines, that need monthly maintenance even if not fielded!

There should be decisions in what we want:
Free Ride=House Warrior
Carry fair share=MercCorp
Shoulder the burden=Lone Wolf.

Those looking to pay nothing could have another option. Some kind of free for all. access to everything but have no impact on the meta game. I planned to be a 10th Lyran Guard. But I found Murphy's (or they found me as the perspective fits better), and I like hanging with these guys. So I would be swapping easy street for hanging with some very cool guys/gals. And I'd do it without a second thought.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 April 2013 - 04:02 AM.