354 replies to this topic

[Mister Haha]

Balancing in-game stuff by making you spend C-bills out of game is dumb and ineffective. That is all.

[EgoSlayer]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 10 April 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

YES...Ready?

Standard Level 1 tech is free to repair. Its common easily found, and IS techs have been repairing it with bubble gum and bailing wire for centruries.

The repair costs you pay would be for REBUILDS of XL engines. Based off size of the engine. Max cost 33% of new engine.

You pay for any Level 2 tech repairs, Gauss, Ultra, ER weps, artemis, BAP, ECM etc....Max cost is...33% of new price.

You pay for rebuild of damaged Endo steel, max val 33% of cost.

For XL engine repairs, endo, armour first 25% of damage is repaired at no charge....


Something like that.

Every one of those is a tax on certain kinds of equipment. It drives people away from using them and limits the number of usable configurations to people who have an advantage, e.g. premium time so they can afford the extra costs. P2W.

Fixing 25% at no charge leads to people going into matches with damaged equipment and hoping for the win. If they lose they are not any worse off then when they started. Repeat until a win, or give up and farm trials.

[TheSteelRhino]

It's not a tax.

I have bad news. ECM is expensive. Not EVERY mech should run it..right now 50% plus in 8 mans do.

At 3050? Bad news..XL engines were RARE.

Endo and ferro were common..Endo was cost effective, and ferro was often in "field" upgrade kits.
But...I am guessing you are guys that think the game is "free 2 play"...It's not free to get full feature set and benefits...nor should it be, assuming they want ppl to spend money.

This is not a charity, it's not socialism...

[TheSteelRhino]

oh..I got more bad news..Pay 2 win is a trumped up term meant to inflame you. What if this was subscription based? Would you be complaining about R&R th
Reality people. It's not free, at least not if you want the full feature set. Nor should it be. I mean, if I worked for PGI, I'd want to get paid and stuff.

[Davers]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 10 April 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

It's not a tax.

I have bad news. ECM is expensive. Not EVERY mech should run it..right now 50% plus in 8 mans do.

At 3050? Bad news..XL engines were RARE.

Endo and ferro were common..Endo was cost effective, and ferro was often in "field" upgrade kits.
But...I am guessing you are guys that think the game is "free 2 play"...It's not free to get full feature set and benefits...nor should it be, assuming they want ppl to spend money.

This is not a charity, it's not socialism...

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 10 April 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

oh..I got more bad news..Pay 2 win is a trumped up term meant to inflame you. What if this was subscription based? Would you be complaining about R&R th
Reality people. It's not free, at least not if you want the full feature set. Nor should it be. I mean, if I worked for PGI, I'd want to get paid and stuff.

So, basically "I have money to burn and I am upset that free players can use the same equipment as me." Glad we clarified your stance. Brilliant.

[TheSteelRhino]

Never said I had money to burn. I budget, but am realist. Game doesn't make money. There is no game.

[EgoSlayer]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 10 April 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

It's not a tax.

I have bad news. ECM is expensive. Not EVERY mech should run it..right now 50% plus in 8 mans do.

At 3050? Bad news..XL engines were RARE.

Endo and ferro were common..Endo was cost effective, and ferro was often in "field" upgrade kits.
But...I am guessing you are guys that think the game is "free 2 play"...It's not free to get full feature set and benefits...nor should it be, assuming they want ppl to spend money.

This is not a charity, it's not socialism...

It's not charity, its a game. Games are supposed to be fun. The rarity is in the initial purchase not ongoing costs to make it a grind or P2W.

Gamers are opportunistic to a fault. Look at this from a gamers perspective not from a TT campaign mechanic.

New player grinds through his/her first 25 matches and does pretty good, netting 8 million C-Bills. They hear the Raven 3L is a great mech to play so they buy that as their first mech. They are excited because now they own a mech, but are not a great player yet. They get killed. They now have a 2 million dollar repair bill (1.1 million just for the engine), and only earned $100,000.
That's ok, they can afford it this time, hope the next drop is better. Nope, dead again and another 2 million dollar repair bill. But no money now. And no cadet bonus, so its either drop with the damage mech, or back to trials to grind out 20+ matches to afford the repair on their raven.

How is that, in any way, a fun or good game mechanic? It drives new players away, and even dedicated players are driven to builds that are not effective against the people who can P2W. Congratulations, you just created new classes in MWO, the haves and the have nots.

Take the next step - good player with money. Kitted out Raven 3L, full repair bill about ~4 million+. They are the last surviving member of the team. Are they A) going to hunt down and kite the members of the other team in the hopes of getting a kill or picking up some damage bonuses, or b )run away and hide, hopefully on a map like Alpine or Tourmaline and hope time expires?

Edited by EgoSlayer, 10 April 2013 - 07:37 PM.

[Draco Harkins]

I miss it dearly, it should come back improved and kicking but i also aspire to world peace which has more chances then R&R from PGI to come back. When it was used it made the pilots less "courageous" in full speed all SRM's attacks because it would actually hurt right in the wallet. It made pilots have to actually THINK before attacking and coordinating with the rest of the team, you know, TEAMWORK, that misterious term that dissapeared from the game a while ago. Now its just a rush to the cap.

But what do i know, i'm part of the "minority".

[TheSteelRhino]

THIS ^^^^

[jay35]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 10 April 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

It's not a tax.

I have bad news. ECM is expensive. Not EVERY mech should run it..right now 50% plus in 8 mans do.

At 3050? Bad news..XL engines were RARE.

No one cares what was rare or not in that context in the lore. This game isn't lore-centric to a fault like that. It uses TT and canon to that extent as a guide for some aspects but not others. It uses it for the mech loadouts but not their commonality on the battlefield. (If it did we wouldn't have so many hero mechs in games, for example, and not everyone would be allowed to own them.) It uses it for areas that make sense and don't negatively impact the gameplay and user experience. The gameplay of the lore is designed for tabletop turn-based play. To try to force it to work in MWO is silly. It is not relevant for an action FPS game like MWO if the game stops being fun for a lot of people, in this case because you're wasting everyone's time with fees, fines, and taxes. The game will simply not survive. If we wanted work, we'd get an evening job instead of "playing" TaxWarrior Online. And PGI realized that. That's why R&R is gone. It was a terrible idea for this game. If you want that mechanic so badly, go play another game that utilizes it.

Edited by jay35, 10 April 2013 - 08:28 PM.

[Davers]

R&R didn't make bad players good. Sorry. It did not promote teamwork. It promoted mechs hiding and shutting down. It promoted AFK farming. Please remember that Streakcats with XL engines and SSRMs (one of the most expensive ammo types) was prevalent during this time, so it did nothing to limit players with premium time and who dropped in groups. It only hurts new players. My recollections are very different from yours.

Draco Harkins, on 10 April 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

I miss it dearly, it should come back improved and kicking but i also aspire to world peace which has more chances then R&R from PGI to come back. When it was used it made the pilots less "courageous" in full speed all SRM's attacks because it would actually hurt right in the wallet. It made pilots have to actually THINK before attacking and coordinating with the rest of the team, you know, TEAMWORK, that misterious term that dissapeared from the game a while ago. Now its just a rush to the cap.

But what do i know, i'm part of the "minority".

[James Warren]

EgoSlayer, on 10 April 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

It's not charity, its a game. Games are supposed to be fun...

...How is that, in any way, a fun or good game mechanic? It drives new players away, and even dedicated players are driven to builds that are not effective against the people who can P2W. Congratulations, you just created new classes in MWO, the haves and the have nots.

I agree with this sentiment exactly. R&R didn't add anything beneficial to the actual gameplay (unless clicking on 'repair all' was enough to sate your desire for role-play). In a game like Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries or the latest X-COM it makes sense, both single-player games with a heavy focus on risk vs reward, but in MWO the risk and reward lies in creating your loadout and making good decisions in battle. For example taking an XL engine is about risk; you have to consider how likely you are to lose a side torso rather than CT. This is how they are intended to be balanced. They are only expensive to maintain a sense of progression, so that purchasing and customizing new 'mechs takes some time (similar to in popular FPS you need to acquire ranks to unlock new guns, etc).

And to those of you who believe R&R encourages teamwork; I played during closed beta and I honestly don't think that player behaviour has changed at all since the removal of R&R (Besides the fact that nobody feels the need to make a low cost grind-mobile any more, and lets be honest, how many people actually found that fun?).

I play because I find it fun. I'm a team player because I enjoy teamwork, and I try to survive because I want to win. Some people enjoy playing aggressive, kamikaze-style loadouts, and that should be their choice. Its not as if hiding behind cover and exchanging pot shots is the only way to play.

Also as a counter-argument to the suggestion that R&R forcing people into buying premium is a good move financially for PGI, I personally would imagine that R&R is more likely to deter casual players and consequently create a smaller player base (ie fewer paying customers). Judging from the number of flashy camo jobs and Heavy Metal hero 'mechs you see around, I'm sure they are doing fine.

Edited by James Warren, 10 April 2013 - 08:22 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

I miss it and I don't. Think the rearm prices were way to high, especially artimis lrms. If rearm comes to half of earnings for the top loadouts then im on board.

[TheSteelRhino]

I agree..Games SHOULD be fun. Part of fun is variety. Right now current game mechanics allow everyone to run some of the most powerful pieces of equipment in games. Have you tried playing 8 mans? It's an ECM fest. It's not fun. If properly implemented a reasonable R&R could make those pieces of equipment (like ecm) a little less palatable? Maybe if the gauss were a bit more expensive to repair than standard equipment, it would not have been necessary to nerf it semi mediocre state it is now in.

Perhaps instead making kamikaze runs in light mechs all the time, ppl would try to play with SKILL...WHAT A CRAZY CONCEPT?

Everyone believes that R&R is VERY expensive. it does not have to be. IT could simply be that advanced tech items cost something to repair (cbills). Or maybe take some TIME to repair.

The good news is, that the devs have figured out that the sweet spot for most things is "somewhere in between" so...be passionate...they will probably find a good compromise.

But I don't know how they are going to make rewards work in CW without some sort of R&R. Can you imagine if you accepted a contract for a drop that covered R&R as part of the compensation? Wouldn't that be cool? But whatever...

[Johnny Reb]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 10 April 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

I agree..Games SHOULD be fun. Part of fun is variety. Right now current game mechanics allow everyone to run some of the most powerful pieces of equipment in games. Have you tried playing 8 mans? It's an ECM fest. It's not fun. If properly implemented a reasonable R&R could make those pieces of equipment (like ecm) a little less palatable? Maybe if the gauss were a bit more expensive to repair than standard equipment, it would not have been necessary to nerf it semi mediocre state it is now in.

Perhaps instead making kamikaze runs in light mechs all the time, ppl would try to play with SKILL...WHAT A CRAZY CONCEPT?

Everyone believes that R&R is VERY expensive. it does not have to be. IT could simply be that advanced tech items cost something to repair (cbills). Or maybe take some TIME to repair.

The good news is, that the devs have figured out that the sweet spot for most things is "somewhere in between" so...be passionate...they will probably find a good compromise.

But I don't know how they are going to make rewards work in CW without some sort of R&R. Can you imagine if you accepted a contract for a drop that covered R&R as part of the compensation? Wouldn't that be cool? But whatever...

Yes, I run 8 man regularly and ecm is no longer as much as before! However, lets see how CW works it will prolly change alot!

[malibu43]

R&R was so amazingly P2W. It blows my mind people think it should come back.

[Davers]

malibu43, on 10 April 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

R&R was so amazingly P2W. It blows my mind people think it should come back.

That is the exact reason people seem to want it. So only they can run competitive builds.

[Fate 6]

It wasn't a good system. Even my favorite mech, which wouldn't cost me much, would still have a decent R&R (CN9-A for reference). The ONLY reason I miss it is because now people run assaults all day.

[Johnny Reb]

We need tonnage drops! Makes all the "bad" mechs viable!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 10 April 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[Xenois Shalashaska]

We need a ejection button. So when your armour is damaged but your internal is still good, just eject out of the match and pay for the armour expense.