135 replies to this topic

[Dudeman3k]

Royalewithcheese, on 07 April 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

And what would a build that isn't "min-maxed" be, in your mind?

a mech that isn't forced to play as a quick brawler to contribute to the team (as it stands, if you dont have more than 40 counts of LRM's with ARTIMIS and TAG, you wont be contributing at all to fights.. not even as a support). A trebuchet that will actually use LRM's effectively and lasers as a long range support mech, vs a forced quick scrimisher becuase it cannot boat a specific type of weapon.

Mackman, on 07 April 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

No, it is clearly the case with LoL. LoL is all about Min/Maxing, because it's built into the characters themselves. They're meant to be min-maxed by virtue of how their abilities scale.

However, you do have a point with SC2. It's much more challenging to control a mixed army and make maximum use of it, as well as being absolutely awe-inspiring to watch. With that in mind, if PGI does somehow make mixed loadouts more effective, I probably won't complain: As long as it's not done with any arbitrary stupidness.

I also hope PGI finds a way to make mixed loadouts more effective. good discussion man. it was, nice. doesn't usually happen in the General Discussion forums. lol

[Royalewithcheese]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

a mech that isn't forced to play as a quick brawler to contribute to the team (as it stands, if you dont have more than 40 counts of LRM's with ARTIMIS and TAG, you wont be contributing at all to fights.. not even as a support). A trebuchet that will actually use LRM's effectively and lasers as a long range support mech, vs a forced quick scrimisher becuase it cannot boat a specific type of weapon.

Wait, so how is a Treb focusing on LRMs less of a "min-max" than some sort of short-range Treb build? How about a Treb that runs ERPPCs?

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 07 April 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[TheMagician]

The teams in the RHOD playoffs run different setups. There is variety. We have different theories on how to play, and prepare based on random map rotation.

This game needs additional features to become more competitive, but it is still a highly competitive game. Honestly, it has a fairly good number of competitive teams.

[Forestal]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Mwo Competitive Play? Lets Take A Look.

At what? Show me some interesting MWO leagues or tourneys and then I'll consider getting back into the game....
Cos all semantics aside, this is really what the OP is really saying-- does MWO foster "competitive" LEAGUES/TOURNAMENTS?

All those replies trying to picking the OP's posts apart, as if they were Ravens or light mechs strafing and alpha-ing a slower build, are just missing the point-- sure, you can be "competitive" or come out on top in a match (or even in this thread), but people only stay around in LEAGUES/TOURNAMENTS if there is a META-GAME going on.


And there's nothing wrong with having a "small/simple" META-GAME of rock, paper, scissors-- especially if it is almost perfectly balanced like the way rock, paper, scissors is-- that's why even a "small/simple" game like Airmech has a few tournaments running... You'd be surprised at how much skill and variation there can be in the executions of the classic "turtling" vs "tank-push" vs "ninja-drops" vs "turtling" vs "tank-push"...

Specifically speaking, most "competitive" LEAGUES/TOURNAMENTS always have an unresolved (& unresolvable) "tension/tug-of-war" between micro-abilities and macro-strategies-- younger players may have the advantage of quicker reflexes, but a key strategic play by a more experienced veteran/coach can still turn the tide.

So what's hampering MWO now is the lack of the lobby/ match-making as well as undeveloped team-comms features/ functions-- so that you can't even strategize on a personal level (what mech/loadout to bring to what map/game-mode), let alone on a team level... I mean, you can be "competitive" at the Assault/Conquest games-- but there is no META-GAME (yet) for you to play.


Like I said, MWO's end-game (Community Warfare?) had better be something special, cos it doesn't seem like it is trying to foster "competitive" play as a Massive-Online-Battle-Arena...

Edited by Forestal, 07 April 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[hashinshin]

Without one doubt in my mind this was written by someone who has never played anything at the highest tiers of play.

Pro-tip: Nothing you're talking about effects competitive play, going so far as to say that because stock mechs aren't viable the game is less competitive? Laughable.

Competitive play is taking the game as is, BREAKING THE **** OUT OF IT, and manhandling every abusive advantage and exploit you can find in to victory. Endo-steel is required? OF COURSE IT'S REQUIRED FOR COMPETITIVE PLAY, it's an advantage!

BOOOOO I say. BOOOOOOOOOOO. BOOOOOO to your post! BOOOOO to everyone who upvoted it!

Edited by hashinshin, 07 April 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[Eric darkstar Marr]

DocBach, on 07 April 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Wow man, for a 35 year old your reading comprehension really sucks, then.

Your skills equate to cookie cutter flavor of the month builds where none of the features we were told were going to be included (and viable for fun gameplay) have a place in this game, where all builds more or less are the exact same, goaded into roles that frankly a whole lot of players don't find enjoyable.

That's cool, though, PGI didn't need the support of paying customers, anyways.

See in the comps my group plays in there are restriction in place be it weight or weapons sometimes both. Sometimes there is the cheese build running around but it is rarer. Now with CW yes it may be a greyish area where min/max is moire required but the core of the group I play with has a lot of flexibility.

So when I see some crying post about really no solid reason other then they can't play with the big boys well I go ****** since that is what I read even if it was a well thought out post.

And to note in any true E-sport min/max is the best route to go always, so why would this game be different.

I will note that I rarely see ECM anymore in 8 man drops at night.

Hell I even know people that do not run endo or double heat sinks, and on that as of tonight we are 2W-0L in the planetary comp our clan joined.

So as it stands there is a small faction of players that have taken it upon themselves to have a form of more legit play in a sense but whining about it and how the OP made the post seems like he couldn't make the cut.

Skill. Tactics.Team Work. That is what it is about, even if you have to drop all in trials and still stomp the other 8 mans into the ground.

[DocBach]

Eric darkstar Marr, on 07 April 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

See in the comps my group plays in there are restriction in place be it weight or weapons sometimes both. Sometimes there is the cheese build running around but it is rarer. Now with CW yes it may be a greyish area where min/max is moire required but the core of the group I play with has a lot of flexibility.

Your first paragraph is a clue that something must be amiss with the game's balance if your league decides certain weapons and equipment must be regulated or even restricted.

[El Bandito]

I prefer MWO's PPC-fest over Counter-Strike's AWP-fest. At least I don't die in one hit.


So yeah.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 April 2013 - 10:30 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Biggest issue with competitive play.

No weight matching.

Give me my 2-2-2-2 or 3-3-3-3 limit already and I might consider coming back to "competitive" games.

[Critical Fumble]

As much as I agree that the game's balance and depth leaves much to be desired, the argument that it makes it not viable for a "competitive" setting doesn't hold water. Counter-Strike (and derivatives) has held on to tournaments and leagues for how many years now? And all they have to work with is one dude (different skin, same abilities) and four or five good choices (add in grenades and decisions in low-budget rounds). Yet, somehow, they make it work.

My thought is that leagues are not interested yet because of the age of the game and issues with bugs and poor performance.

The specialist/generalist thing is complicated in BT, but you can tell there's an issue with balance when one mech is substantially better or worse than one within five tons of it.

[sj mausgmr]

Forestal, on 07 April 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

At what? Show me some interesting MWO leagues or tourneys and then I'll consider getting back into the game....
Cos all semantics aside, this is really what the OP is really saying-- does MWO foster "competitive" LEAGUES/TOURNAMENTS?

And here's what amazes me.

Either pgi is so good at forcing the content out of site, or people pay so little attention, i doubt even most realise there is NOT JUST ONE PLAYOFF LEAGUE BUT THREE PLANETARY LEAGUES AS WELL GOING ON RIGHT NOW. It just baffles belief. Over 400,000 people signed up for these boards at the promise of community warfare, yet LESS THAN A FEW HUNDRED TAKE PART IN ANY COMMUNITY-WARFARE going on at this precise moment ?!

If outreach is anything to go by, there's over 1000 units out there right now for mwo, but only a handful of them are recognisable as playing competitively. WHAT THE HECK ARE THE REST OF YOU DOING ? Are you just making 100 person strong units just to feel good about yourselves? Aren't you bored of joining the same teamspeak to chat to the same people about how good community warfare might be? Do you get all you need from this game stomping on puggies in 4 man's ?

I ask the community this..

What happened to the great house faction players, who talk grand plans in their sub forums and represent dozens of recognizable units?

What happened to the famous (and not so famous) mercenary units, who love the idea of getting paid to do what they love most?

What happened to the clans, who made combat a ritual since before the turn of the century, and have loved the concept of a warrior life ever since?

Do you all sleep?

Sometimes it makes me wonder, if the path of mewling child is preferable to that of mechwarrior to some.

Think on this, lest you forget it at your peril. Mechwarrior was built on the backs of its community. What they did, is what made it a place of so many positive memories for some. Times are no different today than they once were.

Let me leave you with a final thought...

As much as the coming dawn tempts with promise of better days, shield your eyes from the glare on the horizon and cast them downward, and you may find the land there quite pleasing.

Contact me for information, if you desire it.

Edited by sj mausgmr, 08 April 2013 - 01:50 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Every time I hear the word "competitive" and "MWO" in the same sentence (let alone the same paragraph) I shutter a little bit. The game has no real diversity in it's core playing mechanics, as MIN/MAX'ing is the defining line between victory and defeat.

Are you high? MIN/MAX'ing is, effectively, what EVERY pro game comes down to. To ludicrous levels that, indeed, we have not reached on MW:O (and thus it's not the most competitive scene out there, comparitively).

In Starcraft you're min-maxing everything from your armies to your literal finger movements to maximize hitting the macros as quick as you need to survive, because that 0.01 seconds actually matters. In Street Fighter the very first thing you learn is where to dump all the bad moves, which high tier moves to use and which medium tier moves to hang onto as backup. You learn the effective combos, and then you focus on them until you can pull those specific calculated-by-frame-data combos for maximum damage.

I could go on. By comparison "Not building a 'mech like a moron" is pretty benign.

[Black Templar]

imho R&R isn't a real counter to DHS and Endo since (in competitive play) players will just grind the necessary Cbills for using their builds before the actual match.

[Belorion]

I am not sure the OP understands what competitive gaming is.

[Felipe Rigueira]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Every time I hear the word "competitive" and "MWO" in the same sentence (let alone the same paragraph) I shutter a little bit.

So you put then in the title.

[Slaytronic]

it's fair to say anyone playing a multi player gamer is competitive no?
yet a medium pulse for a medium and 310 xl instead of a 300xl is not really a big difference
If i had to watch the same mechs with the same equipment every game I wouldn't watch at all

[Purplefluffybunny]

sj mausgmr, on 08 April 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

And here's what amazes me.

Either pgi is so good at forcing the content out of site, or people pay so little attention, i doubt even most realise there is NOT JUST ONE PLAYOFF LEAGUE BUT THREE PLANETARY LEAGUES AS WELL GOING ON RIGHT NOW. It just baffles belief. Over 400,000 people signed up for these boards at the promise of community warfare, yet LESS THAN A FEW HUNDRED TAKE PART IN ANY COMMUNITY-WARFARE going on at this precise moment ?!

OMG! Is there a website for this!?!? Well, I would not expect PGI to promote any type of system but theirs Mauss! On another note, hopefully I will get my merc team up and running again, pretty sure we will give you a challenge, just like last time

[Belorion]

I would say that making convergence worse would be the opposite of making this a competitive game. Competitive gamers are not going to want to play a game where the weapons don't go where you point.

Competitive players always min/max. Diversity isn't really a concern when competitive gaming, so that argument is a non-starter.

All the tech is available to both teams, what more could a competitive gamer ask for?

[Roughneck45]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

The game has no real diversity in it's core playing mechanics, as MIN/MAX'ing is the defining line between victory and defeat.

Oh really?

I thought it had something to do with accuracy and pilot skill, not to mention group tactics and positioning.

Thanks for clearing that up......

This thread is silly.

EDIT: It's funny, after reading that through again, it becomes even clearer that this person has no experience in the competative scene, just his gripes about what he doesn't like.

Edited by Roughneck45, 08 April 2013 - 05:01 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Since the game hasn't rolled out yet I have taken part in a few (all) the tournaments. That to me is my idea of competitive play. you try to be #1.

I came to this game to play the story line(Clan Invasion) not play in tourneys. If this was Solaris Only then I would worry about competitive builds/play. But It not Solaris Only, so I will build My Mech to be ready to handle all situations if possible.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 08 April 2013 - 05:08 AM.