337 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

Roland, on 09 April 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

I think you are misremembering some stuff there. I corrected the list by crossing out everything that wasn't really used.

For instance, IS LRM's. No one used these. They were trash. If you wanted to launch LRM's, you generally ran clan mechs... because the IS LRM's were simply too heavy by comparison.

Medium and small lasers were pretty much garbage in MW4... because they had been nerfed to essentially uselessness in an attempt to prevent what we saw in MW3, which was medium and small laser boats. This meant that, in general, folks were using Large Lasers.

I left PPC's on the list, but in reality these weapons, as well as gauss, were only employed by a few select teams... because the netcode was so poor that you really needed to be an expert to use them... and even in those cases, you were putting yourself at a huge disadvantage compared to folks using instant-hit lasers.

I left the Longtom up there, but there were only a tiny handful of folks who ever used that weapon. I know because I was one of them. You know how many other teams I saw use Longtoms against us? Ever? ONE. The Lyran Alliance in NBT ran the LT... they were actually the ones who convinced me to figure out how to use it effectively. Other than them, I never saw any other team use it, ever, throughout the entire lifespan of MW4.

Likewise, the UAC's in MW4 were pretty much trash, due to the dual shot firing of them.. that, combined with the screwy netcode, resulted in the second shot generally missing or at least not hitting the same panel. Again, very rarely ever saw anyone use them in game. Folks were generally running LBX.

For the Clans, folks ran ERLL, ERPPC's, LRM's, LBX, and maybe Clan Gauss.

For the IS, folks generally ran LL's, PPC's + Cap, and Light Gauss... No one EVER ran standard gauss, because you had light gauss.

Some of those weapons were only in the game for a portion of the lifespan too.. like MRM's weren't originally there.. cluster bombs were in briefly, and then removed...

Really, the weapons balance in MW4 was pretty freaking terrible compared to MWO in its current state. Lasers absolutely dominated everything else due to the netcode.


Eh, at the time, the leagues were of a decent size for the state of online gaming. The larger leagues were running with over 10 thousand players.

Certainly not the same as modern games, but remember that this was back around 2000, when broadband internet was still rolling out.

Actually, Roland, All the weapons I Listed, were used by HJ in NBT. Remember not every team had a never ending supply of clan tech and could only use IS tech as it was all they had. You may remember that HJ captured a clan homeworld in NBT(the only team to ever do this), what you may not know, is that it was done using only IS mechs and IS Tech. We regularly decimated teams using your so called all powerful clan ERL teams, and alot of the time, using IS mechs and tech, or a mix of both.

IS medium lasers were useful addition to any short range build that had a few tons to spare and ran cool.
I agree no one used small lasers. Or if they did it was very rare.

You may remember that heavy weapons caused a substantial knock. And when fired in a stagger at just the right time, could cause difficulty for an enemy from returning fire. I had one such atlas build that did this very well, using both light and regular gauss rifles. Anyway... I could go on and on with examples, just to some it up, I know that at least team HJ, used all those weapons, in whatever map conditions they were suited for, successfully. As far as balance, let me explain how clan was balanced vs IS

Clan mechs had slightly less armor.
IS mechs had slightly more armor.

Clan weapons were hotter, and some had longer recycle times than the IS versions.
IS weapons were cooler, and some had faster recycle times than the clan versions.

This is how clan vs IS was balanced. It was a very sensative balance though, and I believe, was dictated by skill.

In your example of who would use IS LRMs over clan LRMs?

IS LRMs had a 1 second faster recycle time, and less heat. n Clan LRMs weighed less. Which do you really think was more efficient? I would say neither, the differences between them really only became a personal choice.

Lasers were merely the choice of the lazy, or the high ping burdened. But they were not better by their stats alone. You were part of LA right? My team never faced your team except maybe once or twice in the few years NBT went on. We never really got to know each others tactics because we were both focused on hammering the clans. But both our teams were highly succesful, so I believe what you say, but remember, other teams did other things to achieve their successes, and are just as credible.



But even if your adjustments were true, the list of competitive weapons is still huge compared to MWO.

Edited by Teralitha, 10 April 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Shumabot]

Belorion, on 10 April 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Someone *could* make a perfectly balanced game, by taking the damage, heat rate... etc and making them the same, and only varying things like damage per shot, heat per shot, and rate of fire so that they always equaled out to the same dps hps, and dps/ton. Then the selection of different weapons would be based more on choice. It also wouldn't be MechWarrior.

People just need to deal. Play the game and meta game before them and let things run their course. If ever one started only playing with a certain weapon then its obviously unbalanced and needs a tweak. As it is I see people using a good variety of weapons. As time goes on and the data grows pgi will be able to better tell which weapons are not being used.

I still see a lot of flamer, and MG usage despite the prevailing forum thought that they are useless. If they really are that bad, eventually no one will use them, and they will get buffed.

Play, adapt, learn, change... etc.

Except the flamer is literally useless. It doesn't heat up enemy mechs. What you're seeing is the fact that this community doesn't understand its own game. At all.

Teralitha, on 10 April 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Actually, Roland, All the weapons I Listed, were used by HJ in NBT. Remember not every team had a never ending supply of clan tech and could only use IS tech as it was all they had. You may remember that HJ captured a clan homeworld in NBT(the only team to ever do this), what you may not know, is that it was done using only IS mechs and IS Tech. We regularly decimated teams using your so called all powerful clan ERL teams, and alot of the time, using IS mechs and tech, or a mix of both.

But even if your adjustments were true, the list of competitive weapons is still huge compared to MWO.

"They only used those weapons because they were forced to by the league"

*swish*
*3 points*
*called it*

[TheSteelRhino]

It is BETA. Hence incomplete. Once they get host state rewind in place for ballistics and missiles then i would imagine they can rebalance again as needed. Right now things that should hit actually miss. Hard tobalance without legit data and knowing what you are working with.

[Shumabot]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 10 April 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

It is BETA. Hence incomplete. Once they get host state rewind in place for ballistics and missiles then i would imagine they can rebalance again as needed. Right now things that should hit actually miss. Hard tobalance without legit data and knowing what you are working with.

Ballistics being the current best weapons in the game despite lack host state rewind...

[Belorion]

Shumabot, on 10 April 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Except the flamer is literally useless. It doesn't heat up enemy mechs. What you're seeing is the fact that this community doesn't understand its own game. At all.

I use them to obscure my enemies vision while I circle strafe them. Keeps the damage on me lower.

[Ghogiel]

Belorion, on 10 April 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

I use them to obscure my enemies vision while I circle strafe them. Keeps the damage on me lower.

NickCage.gif

[Greyfyl]

Roland, on 10 April 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Uh, pretty high, actually, given that it's how I encountered the folks I eventually played with in leagues.

They were generally listed in the server list as FFP/NR servers. For instance, we ran various incarnations of HRR NR/FFP in the list.. likewise, some folks played in servers with NH/UA for no heat and unlimited ammo.

There were a ton of NR/FFP servers which were being run throughout MW4's lifecycle, and where open for anyone to play on. Hell, you could even filter the server list based on server settings, if I recall.

I think your memory is quite skewed to how you want to remember it. I was damn near impossible to find a FFP match the entire time I played the game from release until well after mercenaries came out.

[Shumabot]

Belorion, on 10 April 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

I use them to obscure my enemies vision while I circle strafe them. Keeps the damage on me lower.

They should still be able to see your red square, but i'll admit that thats a use that exists (though one would think the heat scaling would make it so that you end up doing less damage to them as well)

[Joseph Mallan]

Personally I never got the concept of using such a nitch weapon. It generated more heat than it caused the enemy, In MWO I have been under flamers and just Gauss and SRMed the fireman to death. Flamers are for use against folks who cannot manage heat. Now under the latest TT rules Flamers make a bit more sense.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 April 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Roland]

Teralitha, on 10 April 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Actually, Roland, All the weapons I Listed, were used by HJ in NBT. Remember not every team had a never ending supply of clan tech and could only use IS tech as it was all they had. You may remember that HJ captured a clan homeworld in NBT(the only team to ever do this), what you may not know, is that it was done using only IS mechs and IS Tech. We regularly decimated teams using your so called all powerful clan ERL teams, and alot of the time, using IS mechs and tech, or a mix of both.

What you may remember is that we played on both sides of the fence at various points throughout MW4's history. That included playing various IS units, and using primarily IS tech much of the time.

And yet, at the same time, every single thing I said is true.

As HJ in MW4, you weren't using a lot of those weapons you listed. That's not to say that you didn't use IS tech.. of course you did. But you didn't use THOSE inner sphere weapons. Because NO ONE used them.. because they were crap. Feel free to go back and look at the old NBT league weapons usage stats... you are misremembering things.

In MW4, you had access to advanced IS weaponry, like XPulse and Light Gauss. You weren't forced to use only 3050 era IS tech.

Maybe you guys secretly used terribad IS Missile configurations when I wasn't looking, but I don't recall ever seeing you guys fielding IS LRM's.

And why? Because if you were going to get engaged in a fight with missile mechs, and you were in IS mechs and they were in clan mechs, then you were gonna get stomped... because for a given weight, they'd have twice as many missiles. Missile engagements were a losing proposition for the IS.

Quote

IS medium lasers were useful addition to any short range build that had a few tons to spare and ran cool.

I agree no one used small lasers. Or if they did it was very rare.

Again, I believe you are mis-remembering.

What IS units ran in MW4 were IS LL.. because the IS LL was quite cool. It's range was reduced compared to the Clan ERLL, but it was much cooler. THe medium laser was just not really used much by comparison, by anyone. Again, go check the usage stats from back in the day (I believe they are still up on NBT's site).

Quote

I had one such atlas build that did this very well, using both light and regular gauss rifles.

Generally, the IS Gauss was outpaced by the Light Gauss, since the LG gave the IS something which allowed them to punish the clan mechs from well outside any of the clans' weapon range. The standard gauss had the same range as the Clan ERLL, which was essentially the best weapon in the game, which made it less useful.

There may have been certain situations where you chose to take the heavier standard gauss, but in general the IS Light Gauss was a better weapon and much more widely used by units in the game (including yours, if I recall).

Again, recall that we were an IS unit most of the time.. so we had tons of experience fighting with IS tech... although we also captured a ton of clan tech and had access to that as well.

Quote

In your example of who would use IS LRMs over clan LRMs?


IS LRMs had a 1 second faster recycle time, and less heat. n Clan LRMs weighed less. Which do you really think was more efficient? I would say neither, the differences between them really only became a personal choice.

No man, it really wasn't. The benefits in terms of recycle time and heat were essentially trivial compared to the huge tonnage difference.

An LRM20 weighed 11 tons... a Clan LRM20 weighed 6. The clan version was better. Period. You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise. There's no "preference" there. The clan version was simply better.

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Lasers were merely the choice of the lazy, or the high ping burdened.

Or people who wanted to hit targets consistently.. I mean, hell, your team was mainly playing from freaking Australia, wasn't it? You should know how much the ancient netcode affected games with non-laser weapons.

Quote

But they were not better by their stats alone. You were part of LA right?

Negative, although LA hired us once we became a merc unit. We were their house merc for a while, which was hillarious due to the ridiculous mountain of money and mechs we eventually acquired.

Quote

My team never faced your team except maybe once or twice in the few years NBT went on. We never really got to know each others tactics because we were both focused on hammering the clans. But both our teams were highly succesful, so I believe what you say, but remember, other teams did other things to achieve their successes, and are just as credible.

When you were in clan space, you had Stalker leading you, if I recall... HRR always had close ties to Stalker, and all the AK guys, as we had played a ton with them going back to the old TFS/UTS league (prior to NBT).

And actually, going back to that league, you can clearly see that there really was limited balance in terms of weapons when you tried to mix clans and IS tech... because in the mixtech leagues, it was much more clear what the "good" weapons were. And seriously, no one ever used IS LRMS when given the option to mount clan missiles in the same mech. Ever. Not once.

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 April 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Personally I never got the concept of using such a nitch weapon. It generated more heat than it caused the enemy, In MWO I have been under flamers and just Gauss and SRMed the fireman to death. Flamers are for use against folks who cannot manage heat. Now under the latest TT rules Flamers make a bit more sense.

Flamers don't heat up enemy mechs. They don't do anything except below MG damage and rapidly cause you to overheat.

Roland, on 10 April 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

What you may remember is that we played on both sides of the fence at various points throughout MW4's history. That included playing various IS units, and using primarily IS tech much of the time.

And yet, at the same time, every single thing I said is true.

As HJ in MW4, you weren't using a lot of those weapons you listed. That's not to say that you didn't use IS tech.. of course you did. But you didn't use THOSE inner sphere weapons. Because NO ONE used them.. because they were crap. Feel free to go back and look at the old NBT league weapons usage stats... you are misremembering things.

In MW4, you had access to advanced IS weaponry, like XPulse and Light Gauss. You weren't forced to use only 3050 era IS tech.

Maybe you guys secretly used terribad IS Missile configurations when I wasn't looking, but I don't recall ever seeing you guys fielding IS LRM's.

And why? Because if you were going to get engaged in a fight with missile mechs, and you were in IS mechs and they were in clan mechs, then you were gonna get stomped... because for a given weight, they'd have twice as many missiles. Missile engagements were a losing proposition for the IS.


Again, I believe you are mis-remembering.

What IS units ran in MW4 were IS LL.. because the IS LL was quite cool. It's range was reduced compared to the Clan ERLL, but it was much cooler. THe medium laser was just not really used much by comparison, by anyone. Again, go check the usage stats from back in the day (I believe they are still up on NBT's site).




Generally, the IS Gauss was outpaced by the Light Gauss, since the LG gave the IS something which allowed them to punish the clan mechs from well outside any of the clans' weapon range. The standard gauss had the same range as the Clan ERLL, which was essentially the best weapon in the game, which made it less useful.

There may have been certain situations where you chose to take the heavier standard gauss, but in general the IS Light Gauss was a better weapon and much more widely used by units in the game (including yours, if I recall).

Again, recall that we were an IS unit most of the time.. so we had tons of experience fighting with IS tech... although we also captured a ton of clan tech and had access to that as well.



No man, it really wasn't. The benefits in terms of recycle time and heat were essentially trivial compared to the huge tonnage difference.

An LRM20 weighed 11 tons... a Clan LRM20 weighed 6. The clan version was better. Period. You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise. There's no "preference" there. The clan version was simply better.



Or people who wanted to hit targets consistently.. I mean, hell, your team was mainly playing from freaking Australia, wasn't it? You should know how much the ancient netcode affected games with non-laser weapons.




Negative, although LA hired us once we became a merc unit. We were their house merc for a while, which was hillarious due to the ridiculous mountain of money and mechs we eventually acquired.


When you were in clan space, you had Stalker leading you, if I recall... HRR always had close ties to Stalker, and all the AK guys, as we had played a ton with them going back to the old TFS/UTS league (prior to NBT).

And actually, going back to that league, you can clearly see that there really was limited balance in terms of weapons when you tried to mix clans and IS tech... because in the mixtech leagues, it was much more clear what the "good" weapons were. And seriously, no one ever used IS LRMS when given the option to mount clan missiles in the same mech. Ever. Not once.

Quote

"The game wasn't balanced, we formed leagues and forced people into "balanced compositions"

Ahh. Interesting how that works. You forced handicaps onto yourself and others because the game itself wasn't balanced without you forcing it to be so. That's how competitive pokemon works too.

Edited by Shumabot, 10 April 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Mystere]

Belorion, on 10 April 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

I still see a lot of flamer, and MG usage despite the prevailing forum thought that they are useless. If they really are that bad, eventually no one will use them, and they will get buffed.

As far as I am concerned, flamers and MGs are useless -- as far as dealing damage is concerned. But, they are most certainly not useless in psychological warfare. Hit and annoy someone with an MG on a Spider, and sometimes they will just look at you and type "LOL". Then you jump and shoot them in the face with a large pulse laser. Now they're mad.

[Shumabot]

Mystere, on 10 April 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

As far as I am concerned, flamers and MGs are useless -- as far as dealing damage is concerned. But, they are most certainly not useless in psychological warfare. Hit and annoy someone with an MG on a Spider, and sometimes they will just look at you and type "LOL". Then you jump and shoot them in the face with a large pulse laser. Now they're mad.

I can type LOL pretty quickly and these days I don't even bother. I just shoot you and move on, feeling sad for the state of the community at large and for the team that you handicapped.

Edited by Shumabot, 10 April 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 10 April 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Ahh. Interesting how that works. You forced handicaps onto yourself and others because the game itself wasn't balanced without you forcing it to be so. That's how competitive pokemon works too.

Nice to see another adult who know this!!!

[Mystere]

Shumabot, on 10 April 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

I can type LOL pretty quickly and these days I don't even bother. I just shoot you and move on, feeling sad for the state of the community at large and for the team that you handicapped.

Well, given that cocky 3L pilots still seem to fall for that particular trick while I am in my Spider 5D (i.e. bait them into chasing me into a trap), don't feel too sad. Instead, be happy that another 3L bit the dust.

Besides, what's the point of playing if you're not having any fun.

Edited by Mystere, 10 April 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Shumabot]

Mystere, on 10 April 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Well, given that cocky 3L pilots still seem to fall for that particular trick while I am in my Spider 5D (i.e. bait them into chasing me into a trap), don't feel too sad. Instead, be happy that another 3L bit the dust.

Besides, what's the point of playing if you're not having any fun.

How is you having one laser that they can see when they target you a trap..?

[Ghogiel]

Shumabot, on 10 April 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

How is you having one laser that they can see when they target you a trap..?

He's talking about baiting scrubs in PUG games. The game is rich with them, so I am sure it can work all day.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Balance in MWO...tricky thing, especially since the game isn't finished by a long shot.

Just HOW effective are the ballistics right now? Without the rewind state for them, you can't actually determine that, they may be way OP or they may be way UP..or they may be just right, can't actually determine that until rewind is in and they can actually get solid data to determine the truth. And even THEN the results will be subject to review because lots of people in MWO simply can't aim.

We know this to be true because the rewind state for lasers IS in the game and people STILL can't seem to hit a stationary target with them all too damn often.

Some things, MGs, LBx10s, Flamers, some people feel aren't working as they should. Problem is, those people are NOT PGI, they aren't the people making the game and looking at a bigger plan that includes stuff we have no real clue about. So to PGI, those weapons are working as intended. Same with ECM, it's working as intended as far as PGI is concerned because..they know things we don't about what's coming down the line later.

Take LoL, in the early days, it was NOT balanced, hells it's STILL not balanced, if it was, they wouldn't be constantly making changes TO the balance. Take another game, BF2. When it first came out there were some balance issues with various guns and vehicles. Those things were balanced out fairly quickly, and you didn't see them touched in another patch..ever. But BF2 isn't like LoL or MWO, everything has a counter in BF2 because that's how it's designed, rock/paper/scissors. LoL isn't designed that way and it shows, they mess with the balance every patch. MWO isn't balanced because it's not designed to be because the game it's based on, BTech, isn't balanced. A Light Mech facing an Assault SHOULD be scrap metal, unless the Assault pilot is an ***** that is, because they aren't SUPPOSED to be balanced against each other. Mechs of the same tonnage aren't supposed to be EQUAL, and weapons aren't supposed to be balanced either. Gauss and PPCs are obviously FAR better weapons then medium lasers and SRMs, and even gauss and ppcs aren't balanced against each other.

What I see from so many of these 'balance it!' demands are people who think they are playing something far different from a BTech based game, they want CoD or WoW style balance, where everything is countered by something else. Not how it works in the MW games, it has NEVER worked that way in them, and it never should. It's part of the game, it's always been part of the game and it should never be changed to fit the console kiddie perception that all things should be equal.

[Shumabot]

BF2 isn't competitively balanced and they stopped patching it because they sold all the copies they were going to sell and didn't care anymore. It has nothing to do with hardcounters and everything to do with it not being a competitively focused game.

Edited by Shumabot, 10 April 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[FupDup]

Kristov Kerensky, on 10 April 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Some things, MGs, LBx10s, Flamers, some people feel aren't working as they should. Problem is, those people are NOT PGI, they aren't the people making the game and looking at a bigger plan that includes stuff we have no real clue about. So to PGI, those weapons are working as intended. Same with ECM, it's working as intended as far as PGI is concerned because..they know things we don't about what's coming down the line later.

Take LoL, in the early days, it was NOT balanced, hells it's STILL not balanced, if it was, they wouldn't be constantly making changes TO the balance. Take another game, BF2. When it first came out there were some balance issues with various guns and vehicles. Those things were balanced out fairly quickly, and you didn't see them touched in another patch..ever. But BF2 isn't like LoL or MWO, everything has a counter in BF2 because that's how it's designed, rock/paper/scissors. LoL isn't designed that way and it shows, they mess with the balance every patch. MWO isn't balanced because it's not designed to be because the game it's based on, BTech, isn't balanced. A Light Mech facing an Assault SHOULD be scrap metal, unless the Assault pilot is an ***** that is, because they aren't SUPPOSED to be balanced against each other. Mechs of the same tonnage aren't supposed to be EQUAL, and weapons aren't supposed to be balanced either. Gauss and PPCs are obviously FAR better weapons then medium lasers and SRMs, and even gauss and ppcs aren't balanced against each other.

What I see from so many of these 'balance it!' demands are people who think they are playing something far different from a BTech based game, they want CoD or WoW style balance, where everything is countered by something else. Not how it works in the MW games, it has NEVER worked that way in them, and it never should. It's part of the game, it's always been part of the game and it should never be changed to fit the console kiddie perception that all things should be equal.

Medium lasers generate a lot less heat, weigh a lot less, take up fewer crit spaces, have no projectile travel time (hitscan), and have no minimum range when compared to PPCs. PPCs get a lot more damage and range, and don't spread their damage out, and can briefly disable ECM. The point is that you have to analyze your mech's strengths and weaknesses and make a strategic decision of what you want to put on it based on how you plan on fighting.

Assault mechs and light mech's aren't equal, either: assaults are slow, heavily armored, and pack a lot of guns. Lights are fast, lightly armored, and carry a small weapons package. In the case of assaults versus lights, bigger =/= better. You have a different set of strengths and a different set of weaknesses. That's it.


It's the same thing with ER weapons versus standard range. Is the extra range advantage worth it to in in exchange for a lot more heat buildup? Same thing goes for XL versus standard engines...do you want to save weight at the cost of taking up extra crit slots and dying when you lose a side torso? That adds depth to the game. Both have their own roles and they are not "the same" or identical.



That is how everything should be. Nobody wants every weapon to be a reskin of each other. We just want to make it so each can fulfill its own tactical niche. MGs and other similar weapons currently don't do this. They are straight-downgrades. This actually dumbs down the game because it reduces the amount of options a player has and therefore reduces the amount of thinking it requires to plan an effective loadout and means you have fewer types of opponents to adapt your tactics against in combat (you can get used to knowing how to defeat a handful of specific enemy playstyles and not need to learn anything else).

TL;DR: If you want to make this game "simplistic" for "kiddies" like CoD, keep straight-upgrades that require little or no tactical thought or consideration whatsoever to equip and use.

Edited by FupDup, 10 April 2013 - 11:41 AM.