1386 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

I can has fun with mine. *shrugs*

Had more fun for that one week, but will admit they may have been a tad OP for their weight class that one patch.

[southernob]

Man, maybe it's me being weird but I love MG. Im using Cicada 3C equiped with 2 ac2 and 2 MG ( tag for E) and it a good build for me. I alway score 250+ damage, sometime 400+, 1 time nearly hit 500. The only downside of MG, in my opinion, is the bullet speed. I got hard time dealing with all those Spiders crawing on my back, the ac2 has too low rate of fire to catch the right moment to hit them, and the MG got the good rate of fire but a painfully slow flying speed forcing me to keep adjusting my aim. I think a buff in bullet speed and maybe acuracy of MG will make the weapon really usefull. ( the best if MG's bullets have the same speed with the ac2's bullets )

Edited by southernob, 02 October 2013 - 07:35 PM.

[Amsro]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 October 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

I can has fun with mine. *shrugs*

Had more fun for that one week, but will admit they may have been a tad OP for their weight class that one patch.

I can still amuse myself in my 5K, but I'm trolling at that point. They were OP but I don't care for the crit bonus idea even the slightest. In need of a complete overhaul no balance can fix these currently.

[Bishop Steiner]

Amsro, on 02 October 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

I can still amuse myself in my 5K, but I'm trolling at that point. They were OP but I don't care for the crit bonus idea even the slightest. In need of a complete overhaul no balance can fix these currently.

*shrugs*

I find them to be deadly earnest in my 2 UAC5, 2 Medium 4 MG Jager-DD. Once they are open, they are dead. Admittedly, I would prefer a straightforward MG mechanic too, but they aren't useless at least, which they were a mere what, 2 months ago?

[Amsro]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 October 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

*shrugs*

I find them to be deadly earnest in my 2 UAC5, 2 Medium 4 MG Jager-DD. Once they are open, they are dead. Admittedly, I would prefer a straightforward MG mechanic too, but they aren't useless at least, which they were a mere what, 2 months ago?

Still useless unless in 4's, I don't see how you can simply *shrug* and say 4 of them are ok, must be good.

22 Flamers would be great they must also be working too.

My machine guns = 10 damage per match average, with 4 of them that's a whopping 40 damage average for 3 Tons of equipment/ammo. 3 Med Lasers can do that work in 3 Alpha's for the same tonnage with more range, and now volatile ammo. Even Small Laser's put out more damage per match then MG same tonnage NO ammo.

Edit; I've used machine gun's since go, lackluster at best, at least in the Jager you have other weapons that do work.

Edited by Amsro, 03 October 2013 - 05:31 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Amsro, on 03 October 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Still useless unless in 4's, I don't see how you can simply *shrug* and say 4 of them are ok, must be good.

22 Flamers would be great they must also be working too.

My machine guns = 10 damage per match average, with 4 of them that's a whopping 40 damage average for 3 Tons of equipment/ammo. 3 Med Lasers can do that work in 3 Alpha's for the same tonnage with more range, and now volatile ammo. Even Small Laser's put out more damage per match then MG same tonnage NO ammo.

Edit; I've used machine gun's since go, lackluster at best, at least in the Jager you have other weapons that do work.

odd. I run my HBK with 3 medium lasers and an ac20, do OK. I run it with 2 mediums, ac20 and 2 MG, average about 500 damage and 4 kills.

Again. Not saying they are great. They are situational at best. BUT, used intelligently, yes, they can enhance a build considerably. Have used them off and on thru all phases too. Have 2 mechs currently toting 2 MG each, 1 with 4. No plans to even remotely think about removing them from any. Are they useless solo? Pretty much, but then so is an zc2, ac5 or UAC, most times. The MG are a big part of my strategy on hot maps like Terra Therma, where I can use them and my AC and fight in the hottest parts, and win, where other "better" builds are shutdown.

Sorry but my experiences force me to disagree with your assessment.

[Vassago Rain]

When the requirement for a weapon to be good is that you boat it, you need to go back to the drawing board.

Machineguns are cute, but do almost nothing still, unless you take 3 or more. This is more important now than ever before, due to the large amount of ballistic reseen you're bringing in.

[Amsro]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 October 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Sorry but my experiences force me to disagree with your assessment.

How about your machine gun stats? Depending on your heat efficiency dropping 1 Medium laser might give you better long term DPS increasing your performance too. The machine guns are just fluff/annoyance/lucky crit stuff, I use them, but they could be much better without being OP.

Edit; "Used intelligently" is not really an argument as going for unarmored locations is about all you can do.

Edited by Amsro, 04 October 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Amsro, on 04 October 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

How about your machine gun stats? Depending on your heat efficiency dropping 1 Medium laser might give you better long term DPS increasing your performance too. The machine guns are just fluff/annoyance/lucky crit stuff, I use them, but they could be much better without being OP.

Edit; "Used intelligently" is not really an argument as going for unarmored locations is about all you can do.

I don't care what the individual weapon stats are. I know when I swapped the alser for MGs, my damage and KDr vastly improved on that mech. hence it is a better variant, NOW with MG, then it was then, with the extra laser..

[Amsro]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 October 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

I don't care what the individual weapon stats are. I know when I swapped the alser for MGs, my damage and KDr vastly improved on that mech. hence it is a better variant, NOW with MG, then it was then, with the extra laser..

Come on now we can't go around balancing weapons on your kill/death ratio stats.

I troll around and HAVE FUN using machine guns too but I won't be tricked into thinking they are good!

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 October 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

I don't care what the individual weapon stats are. I know when I swapped the alser for MGs, my damage and KDr vastly improved on that mech. hence it is a better variant, NOW with MG, then it was then, with the extra laser..

The machine gun's DPS against armor is very close to that of the Medium Laser. 1.0 vs. 1.25; it's a little less, and of course at half the range.... But it's 0 heat as well. So, swapping a MLas for an MG can often be a good idea, if you fight up close and personal. They pair well, too - MG's and (M/S)L's, because they all hitscan weapons. Of course, once the armor is gone, due to the extra crit damage and damage echoing to internal structure, MG's do superior structural damage to ML's. Thus, for certain heat profiles and play styles, swapping a medium laser for a machine gun can be a good choice; swapping a Medium Laser for a PAIR of machine guns is almost always a good choice (again, assuming you're fighting close enough).

I still think MG's are currently a bit underpowered, but they are not a waste of space anymore.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 06 October 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

The machine gun's DPS against armor is very close to that of the Medium Laser. 1.0 vs. 1.25; it's a little less, and of course at half the range.... But it's 0 heat as well. So, swapping a MLas for an MG can often be a good idea, if you fight up close and personal. They pair well, too - MG's and (M/S)L's, because they all hitscan weapons. Of course, once the armor is gone, due to the extra crit damage and damage echoing to internal structure, MG's do superior structural damage to ML's. Thus, for certain heat profiles and play styles, swapping a medium laser for a machine gun can be a good choice; swapping a Medium Laser for a PAIR of machine guns is almost always a good choice (again, assuming you're fighting close enough).

I still think MG's are currently a bit underpowered, but they are not a waste of space anymore.

ah, someone who gets it. And I agree they are a smidge weak still, but I would honestly rather have a pair of MG most times over a pair of small lasers. And my KDr curve agrees.

But hey the more people promote the myth of MG uselessness, the more people I get to kill with them because they assume them worthless.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 October 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

ah, someone who gets it. And I agree they are a smidge weak still, but I would honestly rather have a pair of MG most times over a pair of small lasers. And my KDr curve agrees.

But hey the more people promote the myth of MG uselessness, the more people I get to kill with them because they assume them worthless.

Indeed. They certainly have been worthless in the past, but they're not now. Now, they're pretty close to where a half-ton weapon should be.

I'd rather mount a Machine Gun than a Small Laser in most circumstances (though, of course, it's rarely an either-or choice). Comparable damage, better heat, better range. CoF is there, but almost never an issue given the ranges you're firing at.

It's still a BIG gap from MG > AC2; but an MG is better than nothing in the slot, and does do measurable damage now. Not a lot, of course, but definitely non-zero. Due to their nature, yeah, to get much out of them you need to boat them, but this isn't necessarily a problem. You can only expect so much out of a half-ton weapon.

I'd like to see the crit chance pushed up a bit again. Maybe not where it was - they where somewhat OP for a bit there - but a little higher than it is. I kinda like how they're quite effective once armor is gone, and not in the ******** "Oh it destroys components!" way: They do great DPS vs. structure in addition to their item critting for their tonnage.

They're not really a good heavy/assault weapon, just like Small Lasers aren't. You've usually got more tonnage per hardpoint in larger mechs, so saving tonnage with light weapons isn't necessary. But on Lights and Mediums? MG's are excellent weapons, because their low heat and small size allows better cumulative DPS given limited space and heat sinking what with heat capping generally being the primary DPS limiting factor on Lights and Mediums.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 06 October 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

Indeed. They certainly have been worthless in the past, but they're not now. Now, they're pretty close to where a half-ton weapon should be.

I'd rather mount a Machine Gun than a Small Laser in most circumstances (though, of course, it's rarely an either-or choice). Comparable damage, better heat, better range. CoF is there, but almost never an issue given the ranges you're firing at.

It's still a BIG gap from MG > AC2; but an MG is better than nothing in the slot, and does do measurable damage now. Not a lot, of course, but definitely non-zero. Due to their nature, yeah, to get much out of them you need to boat them, but this isn't necessarily a problem. You can only expect so much out of a half-ton weapon.

I'd like to see the crit chance pushed up a bit again. Maybe not where it was - they where somewhat OP for a bit there - but a little higher than it is. I kinda like how they're quite effective once armor is gone, and not in the ******** "Oh it destroys components!" way: They do great DPS vs. structure in addition to their item critting for their tonnage.

They're not really a good heavy/assault weapon, just like Small Lasers aren't. You've usually got more tonnage per hardpoint in larger mechs, so saving tonnage with light weapons isn't necessary. But on Lights and Mediums? MG's are excellent weapons, because their low heat and small size allows better cumulative DPS given limited space and heat sinking what with heat capping generally being the primary DPS limiting factor on Lights and Mediums.

and my JM6DD still thinks it's a medium, with it's 4 MG and 2 UAC....

[stjobe]

Wintersdark, on 06 October 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

I'd rather mount a Machine Gun than a Small Laser in most circumstances (though, of course, it's rarely an either-or choice). Comparable damage, better heat, better range. CoF is there, but almost never an issue given the ranges you're firing at.

As you say, it's rare to have the choice; hardpoints usually don't co-exist. However, there are some crucial differences between the MG and SL that could tip the balance:

* Continuous-fire MG vs 3-damage beam SL: With the SL, you only have to look at your enemy 25% of the time, whereas the MG requires you to look at your enemy 100% of the time.
* Pinpoint SL vs spread MG: The MG spreads its fire in a random cone; at max range the cone is larger than a Commando. Whether you acknowledge it or not, it is an issue.
* Ammo-dependent MG vs ammo-less SL: The MG gets a lot of ammo per ton, but it IS finite. And once you're out, the SL has infinitely more DPS.
* Hit-scan SL vs hit-scan MG: Yes, it's a difference that the two weapons work the same way, since the MG tries to fake not being hit-scan. It does so to the point of the on-screen graphics actually lying to you about where the "beam" of MG projectiles are. It's like it's actively trying to make you miss.

All in all, I think it's fair that the MG does more damage vs breached locations, when it has all of the above issues as compared to the SL. In fact, I believe it should do a bit more damage, since it's currently really not worth taking unless you can take three or more - and it's only good if you can take six.

[PhyroPhyre]

Would I offend anyone suggesting different ammo types?

AP machinegun variant could fill the gap between MG and AC2 in terms of DPS/tonne.

Larger rounds, with less ammo/tonne could travel further and more accurately, providing a good ballistic counterpart to SL.

MG needs to be diversified instead of sqeezing it into a niche, since it is struggling to fulfil that role.

Lasers get diversity (PL and ER), Missiles get diversity and add on Artemis. Ballistics may benefit from add on or ammo variants.

What do you guys think?

[anonymous161]

Have you people not used the champion spider? 4 machien guns and er large laser...I have been dominating with this mech for quite a while now, I get average 500 points if not more, I often get at least 3 or 5 kills it seems depending on team and map of course, but I've been able to go head on with atlases easily, now yes of course I require others to soften him up a tad, but not by much the er large laser helps take out the armor but when my machine guns are all hiting it kills them within a minute. Machine gun is not to be underestimated.

[Rhialto]

Darth Bane001, on 13 October 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Machine gun is not to be underestimated.

Yep, players need to understand how they work and how to use those. Just like the LB 10-X. Too many thinks it's underpowered because they try to use those like any other weapon firing on brand new shiny fully armored Mech. Yes you will only scratch the paint if you do so but once the armor is gone, you can do some serious damage, more than any other weapon. Ok maybe not a single MG but with a few of those on the right exposed spot, ouch.

[stjobe]

Rhialto, on 14 October 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

Yep, players need to understand how they work and how to use those. Just like the LB 10-X. Too many thinks it's underpowered because they try to use those like any other weapon firing on brand new shiny fully armored Mech. Yes you will only scratch the paint if you do so but once the armor is gone, you can do some serious damage, more than any other weapon. Ok maybe not a single MG but with a few of those on the right exposed spot, ouch.

2 DPS is hardly "more than any other weapon" - in fact, it's decidedly middle-of-the-road.

Which is too bad, because we've got a whole slew of MG-toting 'mechs coming tomorrow.

[Amsro]

The fixes for weapons are too simple and worth trying, I'm not sure why PGI even has a test server. It's rarely used.

I mean can't SRM's be 2.5 or at least get hit detection again. FIX SOMETHING!

Taking 2-4 months to "look" at something is what caused the PPC meta.