63 replies to this topic

[Little Nemo]

For those of you that assume clan mechs will "make all others obsolete . There are disadvantages. We'll see how they are implemented.

Ref: Sarna

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

Edited by Skinny Pete, 13 April 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[Nonsense]

The only thing that might be a true disadvantage is if they actually make engines/equipment locked. The sections about hand actuators, omni pods being only for omnimechs, and logistics...irrelevant to MWO unless community warfare somehow adds logistics considerations.

[DeadlyNerd]

So basically PGI has an open season on the omni-pods, ridiculous and illogical setups etc.

HP system was supposed to be some kind of an omni-pod system but I guess we'll see it sooner or later, sadly not in IS mechs.

[Vrekgar]

Of all the limitations, ARMOR is by far the worst one.

When was the last time you ran a stock armor IS mech?

Yea. Many of our mechs are running WAY more armor than they ever did in cannon.

If omnis have armor restricted, they are going to be deathtraps. Restrict Engine, equipment, and structure to your hearts content, but if armor is restricted.... mother of god it will be bad.

[Hotthedd]

Not all Clan mechs are Omnimechs, and even Omnimechs CAN have their engines and armor tweaked, it is just very time-consuming and expensive.

[Nonsense]

Vrekgar, on 13 April 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Yea. Many of our mechs are running WAY more armor than they ever did in cannon.

If I remember correctly it's just armor type (FF/standard), not necessarily the amount...but it's been a long *** time since I've played TT.

Anyway, speculating about PGI's design choices for balancing clan mechs is pretty useless. I'm sure whatever they choose will be unlike what everyone is thinking (and possibly extremely terrible until people complain).

[Kifferson von doober]

i'm wondering if the omnis will get another chance to swap pods after launch when you know what map you're getting, how many times have you swapped out of your sniper build just to drop on alpine swearing your head off!

[Vassago Rain]

Vrekgar, on 13 April 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Of all the limitations, ARMOR is by far the worst one.

When was the last time you ran a stock armor IS mech?

Yea. Many of our mechs are running WAY more armor than they ever did in cannon.

If omnis have armor restricted, they are going to be deathtraps. Restrict Engine, equipment, and structure to your hearts content, but if armor is restricted.... mother of god it will be bad.

I'm thinking the majority of people run stock armor, with reduced leg armor. In fact, I still have to point out that the awesome isn't as superbad as they think, if they move some of that huge 30+ rear center torso armor to the front.

[Yokaiko]

Vassago Rain, on 13 April 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

I'm thinking the majority of people run stock armor, with reduced leg armor. In fact, I still have to point out that the awesome isn't as superbad as they think, if they move some of that huge 30+ rear center torso armor to the front.

If by stock you mean stock plus 3 tons, that carries for near all of the sub-assaults. Jager drove me nuts, I'd come up with a build I liked and then look at the armor....


(@#@) add four tons of armor and start over, and its STILL delicate.

[Woky]

I think people aren't really looking at omni mechs correctly when they look at the "disadvantages". An omni mech is no more or less customizable than any inner sphere mech, the difference is that they have modular construction so that they can quickly swap configurations in between a mission. To modify a normal battle mech can take a ton of cash, and an ******** of time. I'm sure that an omni mech could be similarly modified given the money and time injected. The logistical side of things is not present in MWO and there fore they present no advantage at all over normal mechs since we can quickly and cheaply modify them to suit a need or purpose.

One thing that made the clans so devastating was that they could so efficiently change the load out based on the terrain. A Stormcrow could roll out in the prime config while fighting towards a city, and right before it enters the city area it could easily and quickly be modified to alt config B with the UAC20 and medium lasers by the techs.

A normal battle mech in the same situation lore wise would have to continue using the same set up for the entire campaign. Even if they wanted to change the mechs layouts before they dropped onto the planet it could delay the operation by months or years while people make new parts, and make things work in ways they were not meant to.

[Vassago Rain]

Woky, on 13 April 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

I think people aren't really looking at omni mechs correctly when they look at the "disadvantages". An omni mech is no more or less customizable than any inner sphere mech, the difference is that they have modular construction so that they can quickly swap configurations in between a mission. To modify a normal battle mech can take a ton of cash, and an ******** of time. I'm sure that an omni mech could be similarly modified given the money and time injected. The logistical side of things is not present in MWO and there fore they present no advantage at all over normal mechs since we can quickly and cheaply modify them to suit a need or purpose.

One thing that made the clans so devastating was that they could so efficiently change the load out based on the terrain. A Stormcrow could roll out in the prime config while fighting towards a city, and right before it enters the city area it could easily and quickly be modified to alt config B with the UAC20 and medium lasers by the techs.

A normal battle mech in the same situation lore wise would have to continue using the same set up for the entire campaign. Even if they wanted to change the mechs layouts before they dropped onto the planet it could delay the operation by months or years while people make new parts, and make things work in ways they were not meant to.

No, they really can't. If you make alterations to the omni systems, it becomes a battlemech, and loses the omni benefits.

[Ravenspyre]

Vassago Rain, on 13 April 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

No, they really can't. If you make alterations to the omni systems, it becomes a battlemech, and loses the omni benefits.

Pretty much. If you remove the omni feature, it's a battlemech and then there is no reason to not allow for full customization of the mech in question. The omni feature is what limits the clan mechs, making the rest of their chassis locked, as it were.

[Strum Wealh]

Hotthedd, on 13 April 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Not all Clan mechs are Omnimechs, and even Omnimechs CAN have their engines and armor tweaked, it is just very time-consuming and expensive.

Nonsense, on 13 April 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

If I remember correctly it's just armor type (FF/standard), not necessarily the amount...but it's been a long *** time since I've played TT.

Actually, armor for OmniMechs was completely fixed in TT.

"The type, weight, number of points and critical slots (if any) required for an OmniMech’s armor must be established when designing an OmniMech’s base configuration, and may not be altered in the completed primary or alternate configurations."
(TechManual, pg. 55)

There it is, straight out of the current BT unit construction rulebook: OmniMechs may not change their armor type (standard vs IS FF vs Clan FF) OR their armor distribution (how many armor points are where) OR the distribution/location of their armor's critical spaces (if there are two FF criticals in the Right Arm, then those two FF criticals must stay in the Right Arm).

Likewise:

"The engine type, rating and placement of its critical slots must be established when designing an OmniMech’s base configuration, and may not be altered in that OmniMech’s completed primary or alternate configurations."
(TechManual, pg. 48)

"The type of internal structure and placement of any critical slots required must be determined upon the design of the base configuration. All complete primary and alternate configurations thereafter must use the same arrangement of internal structure critical slots."
(TechManual, pg. 47)

That was the trade-off: OmniMechs gained the ability to quickly/easily/cheaply change their weapon/equipment loads to suit the terrain and mission, but lost the ability to make significant/substantial structural changes.

[SirLANsalot]

the way I see omni showing up, and I did say a little bit on it in the other thread, is when you go to that pod/location ALL of the weapons show up on your list. So like you see on the AWS 9M with its CT, you see both energy and missile, or the CTF 3D's torso and arm, you see both balistic and energy. WIth an omni slot, you would see all 3, with the ones in red being limited by crits/tonnage ect.

Strum Wealh, on 13 April 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Actually, armor for OmniMechs was completely fixed in TT.

"The type, weight, number of points and critical slots (if any) required for an OmniMech’s armor must be established when designing an OmniMech’s base configuration, and may not be altered in the completed primary or alternate configurations."
(TechManual, pg. 55)

There it is, straight out of the current BT unit construction rulebook: OmniMechs may not change their armor type (standard vs IS FF vs Clan FF) OR their armor distribution (how many armor points are where) OR the distribution/location of their armor's critical spaces (if there are two FF criticals in the Right Arm, then those two FF criticals must stay in the Right Arm).

Likewise:

"The engine type, rating and placement of its critical slots must be established when designing an OmniMech’s base configuration, and may not be altered in that OmniMech’s completed primary or alternate configurations."
(TechManual, pg. 48)

"The type of internal structure and placement of any critical slots required must be determined upon the design of the base configuration. All complete primary and alternate configurations thereafter must use the same arrangement of internal structure critical slots."
(TechManual, pg. 47)

That was the trade-off: OmniMechs gained the ability to quickly/easily/cheaply change their weapon/equipment loads to suit the terrain and mission, but lost the ability to make significant/substantial structural changes.

All of the gibberish, means NOTHING here in MWO. Remember this game is BASED on Battletech, but it is NOT battletech, nor is it the Table Top.

Based: Meaning, using the rulebooks and lore as guidelines for the creation of something new but not strictly adhering to it.

[Marric]

It is correct that the Omni mechs could trade loadouts and configurations fairly easily. And changing loadouts does not change the Omni to a battlemech. They definitely have advantages. The disadvantage of the clans was not equipment or pilots. The disadvantage was their arrogance. That is why I expect that they will run the clans as AI's and have them bid against the IS forces (that would be us).

[Blackadder]

All that means is that you cant change the size or type of engines, armor or structure or equipment. It does nothing with the ability to shift pods to carry mass weapons of a single type, or a mix of the best weapons in game, nor does it limit the amount of armor or number of heatsinks you can put into a mech.

Hrm missed the construction book rules, that was different then what i have seen in the past. makes omni's a bit tougher to play with.

Edited by Blackadder, 13 April 2013 - 03:37 PM.

[Antagonist]

Also, some of the TT rules regarding omnimechs are utter BS.

Case in point, only omnis are supposed to be able to carry battle armor because only their gyros are supposed to be advanced enough to balance out their weight.
Conversely, the gyro of an Atlas that has lost an arm with upwards of two tons of armor alone on it can compensate for that, but can't do the same for even one suit of BA?

So yeah, a 20 ton Fire Moth can carry an additional 25% of its weight in BA (even more with assault class BA, I assume?) whereas an Atlas can't carry even 1% of its weight in BA without suffering drawbacks.

Seriously? I mean, SERIOUSLY?!

[Strum Wealh]

SirLANsalot, on 13 April 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

All of the gibberish, means NOTHING here in MWO. Remember this game is BASED on Battletech, but it is NOT battletech, nor is it the Table Top.

Based: Meaning, using the rulebooks and lore as guidelines for the creation of something new but not strictly adhering to it.

However, PGI has been following a more strict interpretation than the previous MW games.
While MWO is "not Battletech", the former is heavily based upon the latter.

And with the lock-down on the base OmniMech's engine/armor/structure/etc being a major part of the TT's balancing mechanism versus standard BattleMechs, it is a near-certainty that PGI would have considered implementing such a system - and there would be a not-insignificant chance of them actually implementing it (at least, initially), as it was one of the major checks/balances in the source material.

[skullman86]

Forcing omnis to use stock engines and structures seems like it would be a fair trade-off, and it would help the clans stand out as a separate faction.

[ShadowDarter]

SirLANsalot, on 13 April 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

the way I see omni showing up, and I did say a little bit on it in the other thread, is when you go to that pod/location ALL of the weapons show up on your list. So like you see on the AWS 9M with its CT, you see both energy and missile, or the CTF 3D's torso and arm, you see both balistic and energy. WIth an omni slot, you would see all 3, with the ones in red being limited by crits/tonnage ect.





All of the gibberish, means NOTHING here in MWO. Remember this game is BASED on Battletech, but it is NOT battletech, nor is it the Table Top.

Based: Meaning, using the rulebooks and lore as guidelines for the creation of something new but not strictly adhering to it.

but to keep the licenses, PGI has to remain mostly true to canon.