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Limit battlemech customization.


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#141 Amarus Cameron

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:02 AM

Here is how customization should work...

Posted Image


Ok now for all of you who would love to be able to downvote me, I have this to say. There are already many models of most of the mechs out there. As has been mentioned you can refit them, and sometimes it is outright cheaper to buy a brand new mech as the cost of refitting a battlemech(ie. not modular) can go up exponentially if you are moving criticals around, hell it can go right down impossible road. What I believe may be better is that perhaps we submit build requests to factories, if the devs (who operate the factories) like it then it is mass produced, if not then oh well...more tears for the tears g-o-d!

Seriously gentlemen, this is always one of the biggest topics in any battletech forum, give the devs a break, as if they had not thought of this already.

Also...the canon models really are waaaaay better than ours.

View PostElucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 04:00 AM, said:


Sorry, doesn't wash with me. Most of the noobs that will be dragged across will be self entitled COD kiddies who will expect to kick a$$ and the like straight off the bat because that's what they are used to. I would actually take immense pleasure in watching them get pounded in to the ground repeatedly, whilst raging like the world's ending... It would literally be like some sort of sadistic nirvana to me.

Who knows, they might grow a set and learn to play the game, and then contribute to the greater community.

This is either going to be Mechwarrior Online.

Or it's going to be Call Of BattleTech: Future Mechwars - For Kids.

I pray for the former.



Also just saw this...Mr. Ward though we disagree about this disposition of the Jaguars...I completely agree with your above statement.

#142 Skoll

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:02 AM

View PostElucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 04:00 AM, said:


Sorry, doesn't wash with me. Most of the noobs that will be dragged across will be self entitled COD kiddies who will expect to kick a$$ and the like straight off the bat because that's what they are used to. I would actually take immense pleasure in watching them get pounded in to the ground repeatedly, whilst raging like the world's ending... It would literally be like some sort of sadistic nirvana to me.




Words cannot describe how much I agree with you. THOSE are the type of players who will beeline straight for the Assault mechs and get crushed.

#143 Mchawkeye

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:04 AM

Well now. Firstly I feel this conversation is getting angry. I don't want to be angry. I hardly know you folks, and I'm not here to get on the bad side of anyone. I am, however, enjoying the debate.

Firstly, 25 years of gaming experiences means that, while i cannot be bothered to trawl my mind and the internet for examples, you can rest assured that my assumptions, and indeed opinions, are, like most everyone else, educated though experience. I'm recognise that that might not be enough for some folks, but well, it's going to have to do.

I was not incorrect. What I said was, in fact quite accurate, fundamentally speaking. every number, every colour everything within a game is decided by the designers. that decision may well be based on the restrictions you quite accurately pointed out, or not. They could be based on balancing the game, creating the challenge, or at least an aspect of it.

I'm pretty sure I made it clear that I do not know better. That I, like everyone else in this forum, cannot possibly know just how to implement any form of freedoms or restrictions because we are not aware of the brief limitations or the technical aspects of the game. I made suggestions that are well within reason. Your ideas are great; I like the fact that they work within the boundaries of the game and the universe.

But you know what, most of those ideas are forms of dictation. Which, apparently, you see as poor design.

Just to clarify; I do not want to dictate anything. I just think that limitations (read:dictations) should be applied to balance the game.

#144 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:05 AM

Well those that just want to kick *** will leave and thats fine ... but the ones that want to learn and be better will stay if it feels like they are making progress. If it does not then they will also leave and we lose an opportunity to build a bigger community.

Not catering to the entitled brats, just making sure that new people do not get so shat upon they give up before they learn the ropes.

#145 Mchawkeye

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:06 AM

must learn to type quicker.

#146 Knight errant

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:09 AM

Which gets back to design, leaderboards, 'achievements' blah blah. I got to the point where I would stomp on people out of sheer frustration that they didn't seem to want to L2P. While I knew it wasn't helping, it was certainly satisfying. It would be nice not to be put in that position again however because I'm sure I drove a few people out of the game.

#147 Mchawkeye

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:09 AM

View PostElucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 04:00 AM, said:


Sorry, doesn't wash with me. Most of the noobs that will be dragged across will be self entitled COD kiddies who will expect to kick a$$ and the like straight off the bat because that's what they are used to. I would actually take immense pleasure in watching them get pounded in to the ground repeatedly, whilst raging like the world's ending... It would literally be like some sort of sadistic nirvana to me.


Well that there is an assumption, but it's one I can get behind...

#148 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:11 AM

wow so much hate for new players lol.

Remember we were all noobs once :)

#149 Amarus Cameron

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:11 AM

View PostKnight-errant, on 02 November 2011 - 04:09 AM, said:

Which gets back to design, leaderboards, 'achievements' blah blah. I got to the point where I would stomp on people out of sheer frustration that they didn't seem to want to L2P. While I knew it wasn't helping, it was certainly satisfying. It would be nice not to be put in that position again however because I'm sure I drove a few people out of the game.



Indeed that is tricky, as most of us would love to teach someone the ropes, but most do seem to want the win button which would frustrate people like us.

#150 Knight errant

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:13 AM

Seems like the concept of 'team player' is something that is very hard to implement in a game.


oh, and ....poo!

#151 Elucid Ward

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:18 AM

View PostMchawkeye, on 02 November 2011 - 04:04 AM, said:

Well now. Firstly I feel this conversation is getting angry. I don't want to be angry. I hardly know you folks, and I'm not here to get on the bad side of anyone. I am, however, enjoying the debate.

Firstly, 25 years of gaming experiences means that, while i cannot be bothered to trawl my mind and the internet for examples, you can rest assured that my assumptions, and indeed opinions, are, like most everyone else, educated though experience. I'm recognise that that might not be enough for some folks, but well, it's going to have to do.

I was not incorrect. What I said was, in fact quite accurate, fundamentally speaking. every number, every colour everything within a game is decided by the designers. that decision may well be based on the restrictions you quite accurately pointed out, or not. They could be based on balancing the game, creating the challenge, or at least an aspect of it.

I'm pretty sure I made it clear that I do not know better. That I, like everyone else in this forum, cannot possibly know just how to implement any form of freedoms or restrictions because we are not aware of the brief limitations or the technical aspects of the game. I made suggestions that are well within reason. Your ideas are great; I like the fact that they work within the boundaries of the game and the universe.

But you know what, most of those ideas are forms of dictation. Which, apparently, you see as poor design.

Just to clarify; I do not want to dictate anything. I just think that limitations (read:dictations) should be applied to balance the game.


I wasn't meaning to come as aggressive - I tend to be pretty blunt, and sometimes it comes across as heated, my apologies.

I guess the difference that I was trying to emphasize is that your suggestions are restrictions outright - like a hard cap on what customisation might be offered.

I was trying to offer restrictions in more of a soft cap kind of way - leave the ability there, but make it difficult to achieve, thus preserving not only the rarity of highly customised mechs, but also to stop high end customs from becoming trivial.


View PostAsmudius Heng, on 02 November 2011 - 04:05 AM, said:

Well those that just want to kick *** will leave and thats fine ... but the ones that want to learn and be better will stay if it feels like they are making progress. If it does not then they will also leave and we lose an opportunity to build a bigger community.

Not catering to the entitled brats, just making sure that new people do not get so shat upon they give up before they learn the ropes.


I'll pay that. Fair call.

To add a little perspective to where my fiery passion is coming from, and my constant referencing to T:A, I'll give a quick bit of background.

BT and Tribes are two of my all time favourite franchises and IPs. Both are being rebooted. One of them is an abortion already, and I would be devastated if MWO followed suit, and I ended up with two of my favourites butchered.

As for difficulty, coming from a Tribes background, I faced a MASSIVE learning curve when I started playing, and was constantly stomped, face first in to the ground. But I persevered. And I got better. Nothing was more rewarding to me than the first time I made a flag cap, because I worked my a$$ to get good enough to go up against the vets, and hold my own.

That sort of feeling is not something that can be handed to you. You work for it. You want it. And it feels oh so good when you get it.

If MWO is too easy out of the gates, then that sort of feeling... well it just won't be there. For you, for me, or for any noob that comes along.

#152 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:19 AM

View PostKnight-errant, on 02 November 2011 - 04:13 AM, said:

Seems like the concept of 'team player' is something that is very hard to implement in a game.


oh, and ....poo!


Not that hard when you are rewarded for team play which seems to be the intend of the devs.

People usually go for kills becuase that is the most immediatly rewarding aspect of any shooting game in term sof points and satisfaction.

If yuo reward players through teamwork actions they will gravitate to that and start to see the overall benefits of doing such actions more than just the points or digital rewards they get.

Even the most hardcore gamer who says they donot care abotu feelign rewarded would not like to play without a score screen. Even in MW4 you could get an average KDR, but if you piled in a lot of damage and didnt get the kill you still got a bunch of points so you felt you made a difference.

just my perspective.

#153 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:23 AM

View PostElucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 04:18 AM, said:


If MWO is too easy out of the gates, then that sort of feeling... well it just won't be there. For you, for me, or for any noob that comes along.


Thanks for the clarification and I do agree with you on the point above.

As i hopefully have restated it is not so much about being easy as it is about feeling rewarded.

Scratch that ... i dont like the term rewarded ... it is about feeling successful even in small ways.

Last on the kill board? No worries! Did you see how i took those objective under fire though that was awesome! <-- an example

A great game makes us feel like a hero if we do just one good thing in a game i firmly believe. after many years of gaming - but i will not go through that history unless there is a need to make a point :)

POO!

#154 Mchawkeye

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:24 AM

View PostAsmudius Heng, on 02 November 2011 - 04:19 AM, said:


Not that hard when you are rewarded for team play which seems to be the intend of the devs.

People usually go for kills becuase that is the most immediatly rewarding aspect of any shooting game in term sof points and satisfaction.

If yuo reward players through teamwork actions they will gravitate to that and start to see the overall benefits of doing such actions more than just the points or digital rewards they get.

Even the most hardcore gamer who says they donot care abotu feelign rewarded would not like to play without a score screen. Even in MW4 you could get an average KDR, but if you piled in a lot of damage and didnt get the kill you still got a bunch of points so you felt you made a difference.

just my perspective.


Will the classes they propose, like scout mechs actually scouting instead of getting blown up in a matter of seconds, not perhaps engender a sense of team play?
A lot of people seem to really like the heavy or less mechs (as do I) so hopefully it'll inspire a sense of role within the lance and thus: team-play.

Or you'll get a team of newbies stomping around in their Atlas's wondering why it's not working because they have the bigger guns, whilst we run silent, run quickly, out flank them and blow **** outta their rear armour.

Maybe.

#155 Elucid Ward

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:27 AM

View PostAsmudius Heng, on 02 November 2011 - 04:23 AM, said:


Thanks for the clarification and I do agree with you on the point above.

As i hopefully have restated it is not so much about being easy as it is about feeling rewarded.

Scratch that ... i dont like the term rewarded ... it is about feeling successful even in small ways.

Last on the kill board? No worries! Did you see how i took those objective under fire though that was awesome! <-- an example

A great game makes us feel like a hero if we do just one good thing in a game i firmly believe. after many years of gaming - but i will not go through that history unless there is a need to make a point :)

POO!


I think satisfying is a better word here. The satisfaction over all will be lost in favour of the quick fix.

And seems like POO is now the forum injoke.

POOOOOOOOO!

#156 Knight errant

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:30 AM

View PostMchawkeye, on 02 November 2011 - 04:24 AM, said:


Or you'll get a team of newbies stomping around in their Atlas's wondering why it's not working because they have the bigger guns, whilst we run silent, run quickly, out flank them and blow POO outta their rear armour.

Maybe.


fixed

#157 Mchawkeye

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:32 AM

View PostKnight-errant, on 02 November 2011 - 04:30 AM, said:


fixed


Cheers.

That does read better that what I'd written initially.

#158 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:33 AM

View PostElucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 04:27 AM, said:


I think satisfying is a better word here. The satisfaction over all will be lost in favour of the quick fix.

And seems like POO is now the forum injoke.

POOOOOOOOO!


Ah satisfacion - that WAS the word i was grasping for :)

It is a difficult line for game designers to get right but it is possible as long as you realise people can get satisfaction from many actions. FPS games have simply conditioned many kids to get satisfaction in certain ways - but when tamplay is a part of the game design it can be retrained.

We as a community also need to play a part though. Congratulating a newbie on doing somethign right even if he overall was a burden to the team will give them confidence. Calling them a noob and other rediculous things will lower the tone and drive many away, or give them the wrong idea about competition.

Good design can change behaviour is my firm belief and I want a vibrant growing game not an insular one I guess.

POO! ... too much?

#159 Marauder3D

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:03 AM

Just an FYI: to people thinking that you can't have a game with a steep learning curve and a rich variation of mechs, please do check out Mechwarrior: Living Legends.

The combined arms thing might surprise some folks, but you'll find that with just 4-5 variants each, every mech model has a TON of iterations while keeping the same handling and acceleration models. Learning an asset is a process, and people that become skilled in an asset are to be respected and feared. Now if only I was actually skilled in one of them yet....

My vote is for the Canon variants (like my call sign) plus limited modifications which have a sincere cost multiplier and cost in game currency out the wazoo.

#160 kompi

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:17 AM

Honestly? I'm not sure if how sensible it is to release (as an actual product) a game based on mech combat - especially not one with ties to BattleTech or carrying the MechWarrior name, without some form of extensive customization. Yes, there's always dangers with offering that freedom, but I'd sooner see ways of making combined weapon loadouts more effective (the Classic BattleTech/Board game forums have slowly been teaching me about the concepts behind "Hole punchers" and "Crit Seekers" with weaponry, for example. How about implementing something like that?) than limit the customization.

After all, this is a MechWarrior game, and while I'm definitely not qualified to speak for everyone, it would very much surprise me if the name alone gives several people the expectation that playing it would involve nearly as much time spent sitting in the 'mech lab staring at design choices as it does actually piloting said designs - regardless of whether their goal is to increase their ammo bins to actually hold more than five shots or just try to strap as many PPCs as humanly possible onto every single 'mech available to them.





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