202 replies to this topic

[SirLANsalot]

hashinshin, on 17 April 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

PPCs as I believe were originally envisioned as a burst/heat dump weapon. They have ludicrously high DPS, and a very fast refire rate. They simply need their refire rate reduced back down to 3.75 instead of 3.0. And even at 3.75 they'd STILL do more DPS than the LPL, so that should be a tell.

Okay, since apparently the forums are just as stupid as every other forum online, lets just quick show some stats.

There are 3 big energy weapons.

Large Laser. 5 tons. 2.12 DPS. 1.65 HPS. 3.25 recycle (and time the laser is active.)
Large Pulse Laser: 7 tons. 2.5 DPS. 1.83 HPS. 3.25 recycle (and time the laser is active.)

See how these are similar?

Now lets look at the PPC.

Particle Projectile Cannon. 7 tons. 3.33 DPS, 2.67 HPS. 3.0 recycle.
Da fuq?

Now lets drop the PPC to 3.75 refire rate and see how its stats compare.

Fixed PPC: 7 tons. 2.666 DPS. 2.13 HPS. 3.75 recycle
See how it STILL maintains a higher DPS and HPS than the other energy weapons even after a sizable nerf? That's a problem.

The PPC as it is now i both a sniping weapon, and a heat dump weapon. These do not work well together.

In fact, lets look at it this way: If given the option to fire all your ammo, or as much ammo as you wanted instantly, would you? Hell yes you would. You'd get a kill on an opposing mech before that could fight back. If you had the choice to refire your large laser every second would you? Hell yes you would, you'd obliterate anything that stood in your way with insanity burst. That's the PPC right now.

your attempting to fix the symptom and not the disease. Your thinking of the weapon as the cause of the issue, when its not, and neither is the stalker.

[TOGSolid]

Thecure, on 18 April 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Should I get into this thread? Probably not. The thing that most of you guys don't get is that you can have the pinpoint issue "fixed". You can have the boating issue "fixed". You might have ANY issue that annoys you fixed and there are still going to be players that own you. They'll own you fast and hard and you won't know what came down on you. Then maby you'll start thinking about our own skill level and the fact that not all players are equal. Back in CB I came across Koreanease and his 6 ML Jenner. The guy was fantastic. His accuracy was poetic, his piloting fantastic. You couldn't even knock him down. Instead of crying nerf of "hax" I tried to get better. Still trying.

Your post is about as relevant as this picture of cake:

When almost every player out there agrees there's a problem, then you know something is inherently wrong because no one around here can usually ever agree on anything.

And again:
The problem isn't the PPCs, it's the pinpoint aiming. It always has been the real problem, and always will be the real problem. It was the problem back when we first contended with Gaussapults way back in the day and it's the problem now that we're dealing with PPCs. Convergence has never mattered worth a damn and needs to be made into a real mechanic to contend with.

Edited by TOGSolid, 18 April 2013 - 01:16 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

TOGSolid, on 18 April 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

Your post is about as relevant as this picture of cake:

When almost every player out there agrees there's a problem, then you know something is inherently wrong because no one around here can usually ever agree on anything.

And again:
The problem isn't the PPCs, it's the pinpoint aiming. It always has been the real problem, and always will be the real problem. It was the problem back when we first contended with Gaussapults way back in the day and it's the problem now that we're dealing with PPCs. Convergence has never mattered worth a damn and needs to be made into a real mechanic to contend with.

You know, if I hadn't repeatedly been fired on by 6 PPC Stalkers while moving laterally to their line of fire, I'd think you might be on to something there.

But..you know what..I have been moving laterally to their line of fire and had those 6 PPC beams NOT all hit the same spot on my Mech, so I'm pretty sure that convergence is actually working. Walking directly INTO the line of fire, I'm sure you aren't aware of this, as it would always seem the beams converge and hit the same spot.

I know, I know, why would you do anything but walk directly at the tenemy? Well..first off..moving across their line of fire when they are using t2t weapons like Gauss and PPCs means they have to LEAD their shots, which means convergence gets all screwed up, so the weapons don't all hit the same spot..but hey..that would too difficult to pull of right, I mean, who moves across the enemy's line of fire instead of running directly into it? It also means they can flat out MISS you due to the lead time being off.

PPCs are big nasty guns, that's a fact ladies and gentlemen, and they are SUPPOSED to be big nasty guns. You are SUPPOSED to making water in your seat when someone points a PPC at you, and you should be making a really big mess in that seat when you see someone point more then 1 of them at you. In TT, it's one of the scariest weapons you can put on a Mech. In the lore/novels people see that blue lighting bolt and they go AWAY from where it came, they don't rush towards it, it's DEATH!

And the OP wants to turn it into a LL?

Wait...

What?

[Loler skates]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 April 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Oh, noes, I can be beat by other players? That's unpossible!

Why do people always have to believe it's about ego? I know, this is a PvP game, and there are genuinely people that don't like to lose and accept that it's their own fault. But there are also people that look at game balance, try to figure out why certain builds are strong or weak and figure out if that is something that hurts balance and variety.

But if you don't believe that to be possible, then there is no point to discussing things any further.

*) I, for example, don't believe that good players don't use cheese, or that pop tarters or hexa spiders or what not are bad players that are only saved by an overpowered build. I believe in fact that it's an attribute of good players to identify good and strong builds and use them. A professional swimmer doesn't wear boxer shorts because shark-skin-principle-based swimsuits are cheesy and good swimmers should win a medal without them.

+1 million.

If you listened to some of the people in this forum they would tell you those swimmers are sheeple just blindly following the meta.

[Brilig]

Thecure, on 18 April 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Should I get into this thread? Probably not. The thing that most of you guys don't get is that you can have the pinpoint issue "fixed". You can have the boating issue "fixed". You might have ANY issue that annoys you fixed and there are still going to be players that own you. They'll own you fast and hard and you won't know what came down on you. Then maby you'll start thinking about our own skill level and the fact that not all players are equal. Back in CB I came across Koreanease and his 6 ML Jenner. The guy was fantastic. His accuracy was poetic, his piloting fantastic. You couldn't even knock him down. Instead of crying nerf of "hax" I tried to get better. Still trying.

It is getting popular to assume that the people who have issues with boating, and pop tarts are just bad at the game. Couldn't it be that one button alpha mechs being the most effective play style is annoying?

We have mechs with tons of hard points, and a big mech bay to customize them in. But the best thing to do is just cram as many of one type of weapon you can into it.

I've had a lot of good games in balanced builds, but I always do better in a boat. It's just more effective. Unfortunately, for me at least it's also really boring. I think there should be more to the game than pressing the jump button and clicking on an enemy mech.

I've done my fair share of killing, and getting killed by the various boat builds. It's not a lack of skill that makes me want to see the convergence system changed around. Its a lack of variety in builds, and the type of gameplay that the current convergence system encourages.

I don't even care about boating itself. There are more than a couple of cannon boat type mechs. I just dislike that it is so much more effective than carrying several different weapons. And pin point convergence of all weapons is the reason boating is so effective.

[Willie Sauerland]

Leiska, on 17 April 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

Thank you so much! I'm not sure why a forum poster would actively try to get on as many ignore lists as possible, but at least there is a way for us to avoid this madness.

I'm not.

I write the way I like but people like to complain.

Seems like people complain just to see themselves complain.

At any rate, I offer it as a public service

so threads can stay on topic.

But it does have the disadvantage of requiring

the ability to read and comprehend which

seems to be in sore supply in this forum.

[Koreanese]

Ppcs always have been iconic weapon in mechwarrior. Its funny because I never really heard much complaints about it until just now. Yes PAC is heat dump weapon. Use that to your advantage. Its deadly but worthless in close brawl. Now I'm just waiting for someone to cry out that they can't even get close to ppc snipers. Lol

[Willie Sauerland]

Victor Morson, on 17 April 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

No. No thread should go back to normal until you stop posting like an *****. Yes, I can ignore you, but the fact you are basically trying to experiment on the forum to see who gets mad over something they have control over - and there would be NO other reason for posting like that - means you are effectively a gimmick poster/troll.

And ignoring you does NOT block the quotes, of which there are plenty.

The bottom line is you have nothing interesting or unique to say, but because you say it like that, it blocks out more space and gets read more. When I edit it to sound like a normal person, you sound like the most boring poster in the thread, so instead of accepting discussion of your ideas on their own merits, you want to get them talked about by making your posts as huge as possible.

Please stop this virtual jumping up and down screaming "Look at me, look at me!" stuff. I am honestly shocked no admin has had it with you yet.

EDIT: Seriously, any other major game forum out there would have banned/probated you by now. Every thread you post in is a chore to read, even if I put you on an ignore list (and thus risk missing half the conversation), it's getting quoted. Posters that make threads harder to read are trolls. Trolls should be kicked. I don't see what you're not getting about that.

You are too cute.

So much rage over such a minor issue.

However, the topic of this thread

is PPC issues.

Not my posting style.

Stop trolling and get back on topic.

Edited by Dakkath, 18 April 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[maxmarechal]

hashinshin, on 17 April 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

Okay, since apparently the forums are just as stupid as every other forum online, lets just quick show some stats.

oups seems i stopped reading your post when i reached that sentence...a shame you were about to say something interesting and then suddenly my vision went all blurry....
please try again but with some minimal respect for the readers? please???

[ssm]

It's just FOTM. Last month we had influx of dual AC/20 Jagers, after 2-3 weeks people fully elited/mastered them, got bored and rolled them into their usual mech rotation.

In 2 weeks PGI will roll out their missle fix (probly damage/speed buff), people will dust off their Stalkers, Awesomes 8R & C1 pults and due to missle boat stacking we'll be back to usual QQing about being one shoted by 140 LRMs.

And by that time most poptarting PPC/Gauss Highlanders, by then fully elited, will either be alternated with other mechs or turned into more fun builds (As aforementioned Jagers did - most people I see use UACs on them now. They are funnier to play, because dakka)

Edited by ssm, 18 April 2013 - 03:28 AM.

[Belorion]

For the same weight as a PPC you can bring 3 medium pulse lasers which have a dps of 4.8 or 7 medium lasers which have a dps of 8.75.

[Inkarnus]

i dont know if it was introduced but something in my head says that there was a malus of 1 heat per weapon fired at the same time
or was it location not sure here
just widen that too 2 heat per weapon [or make it exponential ] of same type fired and we get alot less boating i guess
and mb make the so callled "op" weapon a bit hotter too or introduce the Core meltdown again
3 ppc = core shutdown mb melt down 6 ppc = ur blown too bits
just a thought so

Edited by Inkarnus, 18 April 2013 - 03:54 AM.

[Mason Grimm]

I posted a semi-solution to make the FoM mechs less effective / rampant HERE

Essentially, you add Power Requirements to weapons. When the weapon is depleted and needs recharging your fusion reactor and computer cycle power to whichwever ones you set priority to first and then work their way through the list. No more 6 ERPPC all recharging at the same time and ready to rock once their cool downs are finished.

This affects energy weapons only since ballistic and missiles don't require large amounts of energy to discharge their payloads.

Edit: Yes, the PPC is considered a "ballistic" since it discharges a ball of whatever but it still requires a capacitor to charge before it can be fired.

It is even cannon; as much as Stackpole can be considered cannon that is.

Edited by Mason Grimm, 18 April 2013 - 03:47 AM.

[Loler skates]

Belorion, on 18 April 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

For the same weight as a PPC you can bring 3 medium pulse lasers which have a dps of 4.8 or 7 medium lasers which have a dps of 8.75.

...

You do know mechs have hard point limitations right???? RIGHT???

:|

Was there a point trapped in that post some where or are you really trying to take one data point out of context as if it that some how wins the argument.

[Mangrey]

Victor Morson, on 17 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Once again we find ourselves in this cycle of calling for nerfs, when we should be calling for buffs to improve the value of undervalued weapons.

I'm more interested in seeing an AC/10, LBX/10, SPL, MPL, Flamer, MG, Artillery, Airstrike buff and an SRM/LRM rebuff than I could possibly be in even a single nerf right now.

PS: The only reason ER PPCs and Gauss are so popular right now is the other big class of long range weapon, LRMs, are trash at the moment. UACs are doing just fine, if underused, too.

What he said!

Well ... the last time we tested the new Heat, damage and firing speed the devs told us not to look at the stats, but test how they feel in combat.

Mang

PS: thank you for the new patch it is Awesome

[Adamski]

To be honest PPCs in MWO have been buffed to be more heat effecient than their tabletop counter parts.

It is less that other weapons have been nerfed, and more that PPCs have been buffed (for what at the time seemed like a good reason).

Once missiles are fixed, they may need to tweak PPCs again if they remain a problem.

Also, the solution to the prevalance of sniper/poptart weapons is more to increase their cooldown/recharge rate. While it means they retain their alpha, which keeps the snipers happy, it also allows the brawlers that charge them to take less damage, and also once the sniper weapon is in a brawl, it will perform worse due to the longer recharge times.

[Thecure]

Brilig, on 18 April 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

It is getting popular to assume that the people who have issues with boating, and pop tarts are just bad at the game. Couldn't it be that one button alpha mechs being the most effective play style is annoying?

First of all there's an Alpha Strike keybind in there for a reason.
Second I just finished mastering my brawling Stalker and it was allot easier than my 6ppc one. I just needed to find the way to get up close and personal, without exposing myself to snipers. Wasn't too hard. And I usually ended up with more damage. I don't really get what ppl are complaining about.

[Arctourus]

Attention Forumites, The Problem With Ppcs Is most players inability to adapt to new playing styles.....

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

Yes, it is definitely PPCs.

Its certainly not that LRMs don't function as counter-sniper weapon.

Its certainly not that the sniper friendly maps Alpine and Tourmaline make up 3/4 of the map rotation.

Its certainly not the fact that the SRM nerf makes brawling against snipers much more difficult.

Its certainly not the fact that shooting while using jumpjets incurs no aim penalties what-so-ever.

Yes. the PPCs are the problem. If the Refire rate of the PPC was lowered, no one would switch to large lasers or Gauss Rifles.

[Willie Sauerland]

Mason Grimm, on 18 April 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

I posted a semi-solution to make the FoM mechs less effective / rampant HERE

Essentially, you add Power Requirements to weapons. When the weapon is depleted and needs recharging your fusion reactor and computer cycle power to whichwever ones you set priority to first and then work their way through the list. No more 6 ERPPC all recharging at the same time and ready to rock once their cool downs are finished.

This affects energy weapons only since ballistic and missiles don't require large amounts of energy to discharge their payloads.

Edit: Yes, the PPC is considered a "ballistic" since it discharges a ball of whatever but it still requires a capacitor to charge before it can be fired.

It is even cannon; as much as Stackpole can be considered cannon that is.

This would place the hunchback

at a severe disadvantage.

Also, it would not stop boating

because of the A1 chassis.

Also, the Gauss Rifle should require

a massive amount of energy to charge and fire.

Either this is applied to all systems

across the board or it isn't applied at all

as it only partially solves a problem.