118 replies to this topic

[Klaus]

Adrienne Vorton, on 19 April 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

every goddam cheap shooter has at least reticules widening while running... just saying

This basically sums up my thoughts.

If you think 'nerfing aiming' is making you less accurate while FLYING IN THE AIR, then you need to play some more recent games instead of Mechwarrior 4.

[Royalewithcheese]

Klaus, on 19 April 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

then you need to play some more recent games instead of Mechwarrior 4.

I suspect that the reason the community is so vehemently against variable spread is that many of us have played some of the more recent games haha.

[IceSerpent]

Pablocampy, on 18 April 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

If you take forum whining as a barometer for actual game balance then I don't know what to tell you. And "well played sir, well played"...? Please, your condescending douchiness is showing.

So, you are basically saying that QQ threads about non-jumping snipers qualify as forum whining, yet similar QQ threads about jump-snipers should be taken seriously? Why the distinction?

Quote

Obviously you'd set the proportion very low for light mechs, so they can still use jump jets as intended. Then turning it up for assault mechs so poptarting at distance becomes difficult without completely compromising vision.

Poptarting becomes difficult --> people remove JJs and switch to hill-humping builds. The game remains as unbalanced as it is now.

[Hayashi]

They already nerfed aiming with FPS drops and rubberbanding bugs for a small pilot batch test on select players. We'll see what happens when they open it up to all users.

[SuperJoe]

instead they should just remove anything that isn't a cataphract, stalker or highlander cuz the only place the rest of the robots have in this game is being guass and ppc fodder.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

plexi, on 18 April 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

The problem has to do with violating the spirit of combat in the Battletech universe more than anything else in my opinion. All aiming is handled via the Battlemech's fire control computer in universe, which results in inaccuracies when the pilot fires weapons before achieving a positive lock. But in-game, it is far too easy to concentrate fire onto a single component at most ranges, and most mechs seem to die within only a 30 second window of being engaged. Even with double armor (now practically bypassed) engagement times are tiny compared to what they should be to allow for a gradual degradation of the Battlemech (In which positioning, critical slots, and heat management can actually play a more important role)

Read some of the battles from the novels and you'll see the massive difference. Right now MWO's game play feels like just about any other shooter, but with a mechlab. It doesn't feel like Battletech, and pin-point aiming/convergence at all times is one of the issues. I'm not saying to remove it entirely, but alternatives should be looked into, otherwise we're just replicating the exact same mistakes of previous Mechwarrior games.

This is my problem. The feel of the game is off. And it's not a recent thing. I think once people starting doing dual ac/20, splat cats, alpha builds, things stopped feeling like a mech game.

[Willie Sauerland]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 April 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

This is my problem. The feel of the game is off. And it's not a recent thing. I think once people starting doing dual ac/20, splat cats, alpha builds, things stopped feeling like a mech game.

The meta rewards KDR.
Change the meta to reward team play and role warfare,
and the KDR driven builds will go away.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Willie Sauerland, on 19 April 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

The meta rewards KDR.
Change the meta to reward team play and role warfare,
and the KDR driven builds will go away.

Don't disagree with that. But I still think tiered hardpoint restrictions is the best route.

[Skyfaller]

Dishevel, on 18 April 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Go play MechWarrior Tactics.
There is no aiming there . It is a much "purer" version of TT.
We should not start down the path of nerfing aiming. It will end up as that other game.

The problem isn't aiming. Its the small maps and the even smaller ranges of weapons.

If all maps were as big as alpine and if weapons had three times the range they do now we would see a much different game.

Currently the only effective way to fight is to get to point blank range and unload weapons in one mech section to pop it. Aiming? Not really.. its just getting so close aiming is not really hard to do. So... what if all weapons had 3x the range and all maps were as big as alpine? Without the silly bottleneck design (which only forces people into wiener-rubbing range)?

We'd see a lot more long range gun battles, missiles being used for support and suppression and light/medium mechs having a niche role for once thanks to their speed and weaponry. Team tactics would become important (note: tactics does not mean rolling in a single group with no purpose or plan) and use of terrain becomes critical (advancing, firing, cover). Longer range requires a lot more aiming than point blank...it also diminishes the damage mechs take since a laser swipe or a projectile can simply miss a lot more. Point blank circle battles would become a thing of rarity since you would likely be dead before you get that close.

[Willie Sauerland]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 April 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Don't disagree with that. But I still think tiered hardpoint restrictions is the best route.

The problem with a tiered hard point restriction is it limits
creativity which was a large part of the TT and previous
MechWarrior titles.
I know MW4 did this and it was one of the bigger
complaints I hear about the game.
Of course, I could just be listening to the vocal minority too...

[Hotthedd]

AIMING does not require a nerf, Magical instant convergence requires a nerf.

Syllogy, on 18 April 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

When I was in the military I used to reliably get Headshots on a man-sized target up to 300m away with an open sight.

When the target is the size of a 4 story building, why is hitting a panel the size of a buss hard to do at 800m?

Were you making these shots while sprinting and jumping with a torso mounted weapon? If so, I applaud you good sir!

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Willie Sauerland, on 19 April 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

The problem with a tiered hard point restriction is it limits
creativity which was a large part of the TT and previous
MechWarrior titles.
I know MW4 did this and it was one of the bigger
complaints I hear about the game.
Of course, I could just be listening to the vocal minority too...

When I first started playing TT like 20 years ago. I did the stock thing for a bit, then got into the customizing. And I realized, exactly which weapons were best, and I always made sure to have endo steel, double heatsinks etc. Basically the game became boring because I was doing the same thing over and over again.

I felt the same way any time I started customizing in the various mechwarrior games. That's exactly when the game started getting stale, when I figured out the "best" and made every mech have that "best".

I think my fondest memories were of the AOL version of Mechwarrior, where it was pure multi-player like this, but what the mech had, the mech had.

I just think in terms of the long term health, giving up SOME customization is worthwhile.

[Mackman]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 April 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

When I first started playing TT like 20 years ago. I did the stock thing for a bit, then got into the customizing. And I realized, exactly which weapons were best, and I always made sure to have endo steel, double heatsinks etc. Basically the game became boring because I was doing the same thing over and over again.

I felt the same way any time I started customizing in the various mechwarrior games. That's exactly when the game started getting stale, when I figured out the "best" and made every mech have that "best".

I think my fondest memories were of the AOL version of Mechwarrior, where it was pure multi-player like this, but what the mech had, the mech had.

I just think in terms of the long term health, giving up SOME customization is worthwhile.

The problem is, there will always be a "best," even if there is no customization at all.
Of course, it's a given that "more variables = harder to balance." So if PGI is literally unable to balance mechs and loadouts so that there are multiple ways of achieving near-maximum effectiveness, then they should limit loadouts somehow to make it possible.

However, I think they should be given more time.

• Let Ballistics HSR sink in and be refined.
  
• 
  
• Let collisions come back in and be refined.
  
• 
  
• Let's see what impact, if any, CW has on it.

When the game is finished, and all planned features have made it in, then​ we can see if the metagame falls into stagnation, or if there's enough variety to keep it going. Until then, i doubt PGI is interested in tinkering with something that may well be fixed by adding in features that aren't implemented yet.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Mackman, on 19 April 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

The problem is, there will always be a "best," even if there is no customization at all.

Yes, I understand there is always a best.

The problem is there is "BEST" and "BEST".

What you want to do is narrow the gap between the worst and the best. That is the whole point of balance. There is never a perfect balance. You just shoot for it being as close as possible.

When you have full customization, like we do now. The difference between the worst and the best is astronomical. When you start to limit customization, you start to see that gap narrow. Because we can't suddenly put 6 ER PPC's into hardpoints that weren't really designed for it.

[SuperJoe]

I think MWLL was probably the most enjoyable mechwarrior mp i've played and i have a feeling it's thanks to them being unable to develop a mechlab for that mod.

and i honestly think there is more variation in that game then what we got here now in mwo, where everyone is using the same builds and the ppl who arn't are just fodder.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I feel like the devs have lost control of the game due to customization to an extent.

[3rdworld]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 April 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

I feel like the devs have lost control of the game due to customization to an extent.

Adding that extra energy to the 732 was pretty idiotic.

Edited by 3rdworld, 19 April 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[Target Rich]

Actually I want to nerf nerfing....

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Target Rich, on 19 April 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Actually I want to nerf nerfing....

Nerfing is really the wrong word in this instance.

Nerfing would be changing a weapon from 10 damage to 8 damage.

What should happen is they should change one or all of the mechanics of weapon convergance, aiming and hardpoints to make the game feel like a real mech game.