258 replies to this topic

[Alpha087]

The way I see it, the trade-off for playing a slower, more durable and heavy-hitting mech means you'll have to be relying on other people taking the role of light mech pilot and doing so properly.. There's absolutely nothing wrong with base-cap victories/losses.. That's the whole -point- of the game mode, after all. If you don't trust PUG light pilots, then maybe try getting into a premade group that's bringing along an experienced light pilot or two? Either way, the only advantage a light really has on you if you're assault is it's speed, and that can easily be remedied via a couple hits to their legs, that's assuming they engage you anyways. (And you're skilled enough to hit them)

Also remember, they don't really get any significant c-bill boost from their base-capping, so if they want to spend all of their time doing that, at least take comfort in the fact that they'll get very little out of it compared to if they actually went out and tried kill some mechs.

[hercules1981]

It's gonna be funny when all these dumb little lights can't just cap out base cause there will b turrets there and it will actually b a base of some sort instead of just a shaded box with a drill in the middle so what will u all do then? guess u will have to stick it out with the rest of your team like u should b doing anyway,and no I'm not a pop tarting freak just a random assault heavy pilot 95%of the time.

Edited by hercules1981, 22 April 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[Taemien]

hercules1981, on 22 April 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

It's gonna be funny when all these dumb little lights can't just cap out base cause there will b turrets there and it will actually b a base of some sort instead of just a shaded box with a drill in the middle so what will u all do then? guess u will have to stick it out with the rest of your team like u should b doing anyway,and no I'm not a pop tarting freak just a random assault heavy pilot 95%of the time.

Calliope Turrets in MWLL didn't stop me there.

[DrunkDrivin]

Alpha087, on 22 April 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Also remember, they don't really get any significant c-bill boost from their base-capping, so if they want to spend all of their time doing that, at least take comfort in the fact that they'll get very little out of it compared to if they actually went out and tried kill some mechs.

You are joking right? Unless you are driving a 3L you will be lucky to get 1 kill. That is usually a pipe dream for most lights. Most we can hope for is a whole bunch of assists.

To give you a comparison I will tell you the difference between assault and light. In one weekend , fri, sat, and sunday playing 10 hours a day, I unlocked basic on 2 spiders that I bought saving for the previous week. The following weekend with the same amount of time I earned enough to buy 2 atlases and MASTERED all 3. Tell me there is no disparity there. I am a terror in my spider and TDK and there is no way that I am rewarded as well working 2x as hard for a kill at best.

I am not saying your point has no merit. I am just tired of everyone forgetting that lights get screwed by the current rewards system. 4 min matches with a base cap and earning 40k with premium beats 10 min getting returns that do not reflect the difference in effort.

[DeaconW]

Jazzbandit1313, on 21 April 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

I'm not talking about honor and all of that, I'm talking about being a ******* troll ******* who can't give a half of a **** about anyone else in the server. Pretty much as bad as a hacker.

Dude...capping is a STATED GOAL OF THE GAME AND WAY TO WIN. It even says so on the startup screen. Stopp QQing.

[hercules1981]

Taemien, on 22 April 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

Calliope Turrets in MWLL didn't stop me there.

I never played mwll so I can't comment, but I hope the outcome in mwo will not be the same as u stated.

[Alpha087]

DrunkDrivin, on 22 April 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

You are joking right? Unless you are driving a 3L you will be lucky to get 1 kill. That is usually a pipe dream for most lights. Most we can hope for is a whole bunch of assists.

To give you a comparison I will tell you the difference between assault and light. In one weekend , fri, sat, and sunday playing 10 hours a day, I unlocked basic on 2 spiders that I bought saving for the previous week. The following weekend with the same amount of time I earned enough to buy 2 atlases and MASTERED all 3. Tell me there is no disparity there. I am a terror in my spider and TDK and there is no way that I am rewarded as well working 2x as hard for a kill at best.

I am not saying your point has no merit. I am just tired of everyone forgetting that lights get screwed by the current rewards system. 4 min matches with a base cap and earning 40k with premium beats 10 min getting returns that do not reflect the difference in effort.

Well that's the trade-off you get.. And it's not hard at all to get kills in a light or low-weight mech. I see plenty of Cicadas and Jenners fitted with medium lasers that can simply out-flank, out-run, and simply evade other pilots to the point where they can fire off an alpha-strike, move to cover, flank, alpha-strike again, then rinse and repeat until the other guy is dead.

But if base-capping was made to be just as or more rewarding than killing, then imagine what would happen to assault matches? Entire teams too scared to leave their base at all, resulting in a much longer wait until one team finally decides to push forward. Or just a lot of base rushing. The game needs a balance between the role of heavier mechs and the role of lighter mechs... And from what I've seen in my atlas, and in my cicada, it already has it.

[DrunkDrivin]

Alpha087, on 22 April 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

Well that's the trade-off you get.. And it's not hard at all to get kills in a light or low-weight mech. I see plenty of Cicadas and Jenners fitted with medium lasers that can simply out-flank, out-run, and simply evade other pilots to the point where they can fire off an alpha-strike, move to cover, flank, alpha-strike again, then rinse and repeat until the other guy is dead.

But if base-capping was made to be just as or more rewarding than killing, then imagine what would happen to assault matches? Entire teams too scared to leave their base at all, resulting in a much longer wait until one team finally decides to push forward. Or just a lot of base rushing. The game needs a balance between the role of heavier mechs and the role of lighter mechs... And from what I've seen in my atlas, and in my cicada, it already has it.

I have an Atlas, Heavy Metal, Spider, Commando, and Jenner. I do well all and I will never believe that rewards are balanced. Not even close. I can see money coming easier to assaults if there was re-arm. I so no benefit to piloting a light besides intentionally frustrating enemy heavies and assaults into rage quitting. Well....and getting them to shoot each other to death. That is always good to see.

Edit - agreed, base capping bonus would just make things stupid in the other direction. I just think that damage and component destruction giving the most money is silly. Any pilot worth a damn is going to kill as fast as possible, which means low damage and component destruction. The best rewards go to big stompy robots that only kinda aim.

Edited by DrunkDrivin, 22 April 2013 - 07:49 PM.

[Esplodin]

Jazzbandit1313, on 22 April 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

and that my dear jenkins is a perfect example of rudeness.

LOL. I totally read your name as JizzBandit calling out rudeness, and sprayed coffee all over my monitor. There is another joke in there about your pole, but I think I'll just leave that one be.

[Taemien]

hercules1981, on 22 April 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

I never played mwll so I can't comment, but I hope the outcome in mwo will not be the same as u stated.

I will tell you how games typically run in MWLL.

If there was ever a no respawn mode, the teams were reluctant to come out of their bases. They relied heavily on Longtoms and LRMs to dish out damage (if they were available, depended on the resources since you couldn't just bring any mech to the field you wanted).

When Respawn was enabled it turned into a grind fest at whatever the center of the map was. If one team clearly outmatched the other, they simply spawn camped them.

This is why I enjoy the bases in MWO. They offer no protection to timid players and provide a means to Punish them if they don't defend them. See this is why players flee their bases, they know the base is the target of aggressive tactics and are timid to stand against them. They dislike the fact that there is a point, of theirs, that needs to be protected. They want TDM so they can go to a corner of the map without any consequence and wait for their teammates to engage before they do.

They cannot do this now. They know that if they sit and wait in a dugin position, they will get capped from behind. This offers a sick feeling of dread that they are being hunted and could possibly be singled out if they try to prevent the base from being capped. This feeling overpowers their competitive will to win the match and they hate that. They hate losing like that, being humiliated both subconsciously and in front of their peers.

This is why they have to resort to these tactics on the forums to try and reclaim some shred of dignity and self respect by coordinating with like minded players against the masses. They feel that in a good enough apparent numbers, they can all puff up their chests and make a difference. Maybe try to make us feel cheap or guilty. In their astonishment, we only gloat, taunt, and relish the fact that our tactics are not only tactically effective but psychologically as well.

When running in my group. We know for a fact that there might be a good number that will falter at the sound of "Base is being Captured" Just by reading these forums we know someone just slapped their monitor, grunted, and spewed out some profanity. For that is a shot missed or not even taken. That is a hesitation that may cost them another mech against our team.

Or even better, maybe someone raged. Maybe even quitting, taking a mech out of the fight entirely and demoralizing the rest of their team. Maybe they even broke a peripheral device such as their mouse or keyboard. We know that in another game that such an event will remind them in another game of their foolishness and bring the edge off their fighting yet again. That is if they can replace such an advice. For such device might even be a monitor.

You know what I call broken computer peripherals? Trophies, virtual trophies. Virtual to me, but broken junk to them.

I am a fair player. I play by the rules, I don't hack, I don't cheat. And I play in a sportsmanlike manner. So why do I feel this way to the ones who complain the loudest? Because they lack the same sportsmanlike attitude. Instead of adapting and overcoming the challenges at hand, they decide to call us out in public and attempt (futilely) to coerce us into playing by their ways. You don't tell someone how to play. You don't tell them what to bring. You don't ridicule them for using a fair tactic.

But these players have crossed that line. They have left their respect of their opponent at the door. Therefor they are undeserving of respect. I don't have contempt for them and what I say should not be construed as such, as I do not hate those for being ignorant. But I do believe in justice and fairness and the feelings and words they are being given are just that.

Some might say that -I- or -we- (for those that agree with me), try to tell them how to play by saying, "Defend your base" or "stay in a group" or "use a light mech" There is a big difference. We are giving a method of how to counter. We don't think they HAVE to do as we say. We are frustrated with the fact that they choose to complain about a problem that we do not have. I mean we give them simple strategies and tactics that we use on an every day basis to keep ourselves from being capped.

I mean its not like we're on the same team all the time. Many times we're pitted against each other and we have to protect ourselves from being capped too. But we always know that if we're capped it was done so fair and square. If I'm capped, I always tell my groupmates who moan about it sometimes that we should have capped them faster or defended. Its our fault we were capped, not the opponent, the opponent outplayed us. And to accept such lose graciously, it was a learning experience.

So I act the way I do to these people who call us out because they are wrong. I know they are wrong. And they have committed wrong by trying to call us out. They started this vitriol, and so they get it in return. But not because of hate. As I said, it isn't hate that drives the responses. But a lack, or I should say a lost respect. But not as a person, as that is too strong and this is only a game, but as an opponent. As person I'd still drink a beer with them. What happens in a match or even forums stays there. Its nothing personal at the end of the day.

I'll give one bit of advice, and this will be the last bit I will give in this thread or any other. Don't worry about how your opponents win or lose. As long as they do so within the rules of the game (those that hack or exploit, report them and let justice handle them, but then move on). Learn from your mistakes and your loses. Adapt and overcome. Do not judge your teammates, they are just there to have fun. Be tolerant of their 'stupidity' they might just be fooling around, it is just a game. Be gracious when they pull through for you. When grouped, stay focused, you have joined together for a purpose, the fun is trying to obtain that purpose. And celebrate your victories, as well as your losses. If you do all these things, you will have much more fun in this game any any other you play.

[hercules1981]

Taemien, on 23 April 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

I will tell you how games typically run in MWLL.

If there was ever a no respawn mode, the teams were reluctant to come out of their bases. They relied heavily on Longtoms and LRMs to dish out damage (if they were available, depended on the resources since you couldn't just bring any mech to the field you wanted).

When Respawn was enabled it turned into a grind fest at whatever the center of the map was. If one team clearly outmatched the other, they simply spawn camped them.

This is why I enjoy the bases in MWO. They offer no protection to timid players and provide a means to Punish them if they don't defend them. See this is why players flee their bases, they know the base is the target of aggressive tactics and are timid to stand against them. They dislike the fact that there is a point, of theirs, that needs to be protected. They want TDM so they can go to a corner of the map without any consequence and wait for their teammates to engage before they do.

They cannot do this now. They know that if they sit and wait in a dugin position, they will get capped from behind. This offers a sick feeling of dread that they are being hunted and could possibly be singled out if they try to prevent the base from being capped. This feeling overpowers their competitive will to win the match and they hate that. They hate losing like that, being humiliated both subconsciously and in front of their peers.

This is why they have to resort to these tactics on the forums to try and reclaim some shred of dignity and self respect by coordinating with like minded players against the masses. They feel that in a good enough apparent numbers, they can all puff up their chests and make a difference. Maybe try to make us feel cheap or guilty. In their astonishment, we only gloat, taunt, and relish the fact that our tactics are not only tactically effective but psychologically as well.

When running in my group. We know for a fact that there might be a good number that will falter at the sound of "Base is being Captured" Just by reading these forums we know someone just slapped their monitor, grunted, and spewed out some profanity. For that is a shot missed or not even taken. That is a hesitation that may cost them another mech against our team.

Or even better, maybe someone raged. Maybe even quitting, taking a mech out of the fight entirely and demoralizing the rest of their team. Maybe they even broke a peripheral device such as their mouse or keyboard. We know that in another game that such an event will remind them in another game of their foolishness and bring the edge off their fighting yet again. That is if they can replace such an advice. For such device might even be a monitor.

You know what I call broken computer peripherals? Trophies, virtual trophies. Virtual to me, but broken junk to them.

I am a fair player. I play by the rules, I don't hack, I don't cheat. And I play in a sportsmanlike manner. So why do I feel this way to the ones who complain the loudest? Because they lack the same sportsmanlike attitude. Instead of adapting and overcoming the challenges at hand, they decide to call us out in public and attempt (futilely) to coerce us into playing by their ways. You don't tell someone how to play. You don't tell them what to bring. You don't ridicule them for using a fair tactic.

But these players have crossed that line. They have left their respect of their opponent at the door. Therefor they are undeserving of respect. I don't have contempt for them and what I say should not be construed as such, as I do not hate those for being ignorant. But I do believe in justice and fairness and the feelings and words they are being given are just that.

Some might say that -I- or -we- (for those that agree with me), try to tell them how to play by saying, "Defend your base" or "stay in a group" or "use a light mech" There is a big difference. We are giving a method of how to counter. We don't think they HAVE to do as we say. We are frustrated with the fact that they choose to complain about a problem that we do not have. I mean we give them simple strategies and tactics that we use on an every day basis to keep ourselves from being capped.

I mean its not like we're on the same team all the time. Many times we're pitted against each other and we have to protect ourselves from being capped too. But we always know that if we're capped it was done so fair and square. If I'm capped, I always tell my groupmates who moan about it sometimes that we should have capped them faster or defended. Its our fault we were capped, not the opponent, the opponent outplayed us. And to accept such lose graciously, it was a learning experience.

So I act the way I do to these people who call us out because they are wrong. I know they are wrong. And they have committed wrong by trying to call us out. They started this vitriol, and so they get it in return. But not because of hate. As I said, it isn't hate that drives the responses. But a lack, or I should say a lost respect. But not as a person, as that is too strong and this is only a game, but as an opponent. As person I'd still drink a beer with them. What happens in a match or even forums stays there. Its nothing personal at the end of the day.

I'll give one bit of advice, and this will be the last bit I will give in this thread or any other. Don't worry about how your opponents win or lose. As long as they do so within the rules of the game (those that hack or exploit, report them and let justice handle them, but then move on). Learn from your mistakes and your loses. Adapt and overcome. Do not judge your teammates, they are just there to have fun. Be tolerant of their 'stupidity' they might just be fooling around, it is just a game. Be gracious when they pull through for you. When grouped, stay focused, you have joined together for a purpose, the fun is trying to obtain that purpose. And celebrate your victories, as well as your losses. If you do all these things, you will have much more fun in this game any any other you play.

Although I still am a strong believer in the purpose of this game is to shot other robots with yours and c capping as a secondary thing to do, there is sure room for it (capping) just not right out of the gate and or to have the roles reversed( capping 1st and then fighting if u have to 2nd) and this not to mention when u or other lights run off to cap u leave the flanks uncovered for lights such as yourself to run right in behind the bigs and disrupt the front lines. 2nd if u didn't run off to cap and covered flanks then the other team said oh ill cap then u and the lights u run with can rtb and take care of it while the front line is still intact.
Offence may win games but defence wins championships my friend any1 who plays any sports knows this as it has been said by sports casters and coaches and players alike. Keep your lights with your bigs mayb scout real quick come back to them so if u get capped u can run back deal with the problem 1st now there lights r toast and your bigs don't need to worry about them or run back cause that's just a waste of time but don't run off for cap right away. But u do as u wish I no u will anyway I'm just trying to let all u light pilots out there no us bigs would rather u prevent other lights from shooting us in the back then us getting shoot in the back and say what the hell and then c enemy base is getting captured on the screen and yelling out dam light pilot that's where he is!

[Dreepa]

I tell you something:

Put a HQ building at the cap base that you need to shoot. Give it health, like 500 armor and 200 internal.

No one would complain. Why? Cause it involves shooting.
It is just psychology.


On the balancing note:
Capping could go a little slower in general. Goes way to quick imho.

[Quxudica]

Thoummim, on 21 April 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Capping = tear of ppc stalker and poptart highlander. Its priceless.

double edged sword, capping games and baser races are the most boring this game can get. I'd rather get rolled 8-0 than win via a base race. Standing in a box for sixty seconds and looking at the dirt is not my idea of fun.

Quote

I tell you something:

Put a HQ building at the cap base that you need to shoot. Give it health, like 500 armor and 200 internal.

No one would complain. Why? Cause it involves shooting.
It is just psychology.


On the balancing note:
Capping could go a little slower in general. Goes way to quick imho.

Better yet, make it an actual base. Give it basic defenses, put other structures on the map such as a generator that needs to be destroyed/defended to make the base captureable. Give us multiple objectives and make the mode interesting. As it stands it's more interesting to play Assault like its TDM then it is to do the objective and you get rewarded more for it too.

Edited by Quxudica, 23 April 2013 - 06:19 AM.

[Novakaine]

Until we get more game beside just "2" this will be a annoyance.
Of course getting rid of the 8 to 14 year olds and the many assorted jackarse's.
This game would be perfect.

[pjnt]

Novakaine, on 23 April 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Until we get more game beside just "2" this will be a annoyance.
Of course getting rid of the 8 to 14 year olds and the many assorted jackarse's.
This game would be perfect.

lol. I am certain your list to make the game perfect is longer. Once implemented you and your twin can enjoy the game. The rest of the worldly populous will have to move on to other endeavors.

[Jman5]

Quote

Better yet, make it an actual base. Give it basic defenses,

Is it a coincidence that all the solutions about changing base cap revolve around weakening the lights and strengthening the assaults? So how would these base turrets work? What would stop me from bringing a jump sniper and just taking them out from 1000 meters? Or would this become another sniper friendly feature that punishes brawlers and lights?

Quote

put other structures on the map such as a generator that needs to be destroyed/defended to make the base captureable. Give us multiple objectives and make the mode interesting. As it stands it's more interesting to play Assault like its TDM then it is to do the objective and you get rewarded more for it too.

While not completely the same, this is very similar to Conquest mode. You have multiple structures on the map that need to be captured/defended. Perhaps the solution for you is to stick to conquest.

[Gimpster]

I think the inclusion of base capping in Assault mode is a mechanic the developers included to allow one team to end a match in the event that the few remaining members of the opposing team choose to hide and not fight. Its there to encourage those last holdouts to come out and fight. Conversely it also allows a weakened team the opportunity to pull out a win. Lights running for a cap early I do not believe was an intended player behavior. One possible solution is to lock this mechanic until a certain percentage of the combatants who entered the match have been destroyed. This eliminated the unintended player behavior without affecting the other intended player behaviors.

Edited by Gimpster, 23 April 2013 - 10:09 PM.

[ShadowDarter]

capping is a legal way of winning the game, and if your team had no defense plan then its your teams fault for losing...

[PureRiffs]

I quite like the idea of assault and it is fun having to push up and keep eyes on all flanks so no1 gets in behind. Even if this is really hard on large maps :-S
I just think there should be a death match game mode as well.
We all know its gonna come guys, reduce the rage lol.