99 replies to this topic

[TexAce]

Utilyan, on 21 April 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

whoa.....WHO told you about the 6 MG spider!? Its sopose to be one of those "unseen" secret mechs.......

URBIE ON THE RIGHT!!!!

WHO THE HELL MADE THIS?! WANT!!

[Loler skates]

TOGSolid, on 21 April 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

The funny part about all of that is that the MG is still listed as having 2 firepower in the mechlab.

well if they listed it as 0.04 it would look a bit odd?

Plus i don't think the memory value they used is cable of representing 0.04 integers baby.

[Demos]

Inventing a new weapon is crap.
There are LAC/2 (4t), LAC/5 (5t) and the MagShot (mech version; 0,5t and 2 damage).
Before inventing a new weapons, MGs should be made viable OR they should simply make a time jump to 3059+ with Operation Bulldog, FedCom Civil War and new shiny weapons.

[Accursed Richards]

Eshek, on 22 April 2013 - 02:05 AM, said:

NOPE! It says anti-personnel, by this forum's logic it can never be anything but a waste of crits, tonnage and hardpoints ever.

I will concede that machine guns are very useful against infantry.

When are infantry being introduced to this game again?

[Joseph Mallan]

TOGSolid, on 21 April 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Funny how the TT bible thumpers always, aaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllwwwwwwaaaaaaaayyyyyyyssssss ignore that part.

Technically we don't ALL ignore that part. I never used MGs cause if I let an enemy get into MG range I messed up. and 1.5 tons of armor was a better idea in my eyes.

[General Taskeen]

Dude...

A Light Rifle does 0 Damage to Mechs. The Light Rifles are the Old Era Legacy weapons from our century in Battle Tech.

Any "rifle" does -3 from its base damage. So therefore 3 - 3 = 0 Damage to Battle Mechs.

A Machine Gun, per the rules, does 2 Damage straight-up to Battle Mechs.

Edited by General Taskeen, 22 April 2013 - 04:59 AM.

[Avimimus]

Rifles, Mechmortars, Thumpers & Deadshot missiles...

...or different manufacturer variants on existing weapons.

[Joseph Mallan]

General Taskeen, on 22 April 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Dude...

A Light Rifle does 0 Damage to Mechs. The Light Rifles are the Old Era Legacy weapons from our century in Battle Tech.

Any "rifle" does -3 from its base damage. So therefore 3 - 3 = 0 Damage to Battle Mechs.

A Machine Gun, per the rules, does 2 Damage straight-up to Battle Mechs.

Yes 2 damage per turn(10 seconds) or 0.2 damage per bullet.

Or we need to define what equals a 'turn' in real time. I do not want to see a 0.5 ton weapon getting the same effect as a 6 ton AC. It was stupid on TT it would be stupid here.

[Vassago Rain]

ITT: we discover why sarna is bad for you.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 April 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Yes 2 damage per turn(10 seconds) or 0.2 damage per bullet.

Or we need to define what equals a 'turn' in real time. I do not want to see a 0.5 ton weapon getting the same effect as a 6 ton AC. It was stupid on TT it would be stupid here.

But in MWO the AC/2 does 10 times the damage of the MG - and nobody's asking for the MG to be buffed to that level.

So the question really is, how much of a buff does it need to offset all the drawbacks it has:

* Severely limited range (90m, shortest in the game bar the Flamer)
* Very low damage per ton of ammo (half of what the other ballistics get)
* Very high RoF (5 times the AC/2s RoF)
* Very low per-projectile damage (1/50th of the AC/2 damage)
* Very low projectile speed (although it doesn't matter since the projectiles are just non-related graphics - the game doesn't even calculate travel time for MG projectile; it's insta-hit)
* RNG spread means accurate fire is impossible ("We removed the RNG in favour of skill" - yeah right).
* Effective DPS is about 50% of theoretical DPS due to all these factors.

Personally, I don't think it could be any lower than 1.2 DPS without still being non-viable. I'd prefer something a bit closer to 2.0 DPS - or half that of the AC/2.

[Inkarnus]

simple put mgs were changed because of freedom of boating in mw2 mw3 and nobody
wantet to play versus an 100 ton mech stuffed with mgs that killed you in an instance in
there deathzone

[stjobe]

Inkarnus, on 22 April 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

simple put mgs were changed because of freedom of boating in mw2 mw3 and nobody
wantet to play versus an 100 ton mech stuffed with mgs that killed you in an instance in
there deathzone

That's ridiculous. MWO has the hardpoint system to handle boating; you cannot "stuff" a 100-ton 'mech with MGs.
You can't even put 6 MGs on a Spider and do devastating effects to the back of an Atlas.

[KinLuu]

Well, if they wanted, PGI could increase the MGs damage in small increments - just stop increasing it once the QQ shifts from "OMG MGs SO WEAK" to "OMG MGs SO BROKEN, NERF!".

[Joseph Mallan]

I under stand that... in principal StJobe. But people like you are not the ones I am posting to.

But 20 damage in the same amount of time as an AC2 does 40 is still a bit much to me for a 0.5 ton weapon. *Shrug* Buff it yes, but buff it in scale for its size. Make it equal to Small lasers or SRM2s.

[Skylarr]

General Taskeen, on 22 April 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Dude...

A Light Rifle does 0 Damage to Mechs. The Light Rifles are the Old Era Legacy weapons from our century in Battle Tech.

Any "rifle" does -3 from its base damage. So therefore 3 - 3 = 0 Damage to Battle Mechs.

A Machine Gun, per the rules, does 2 Damage straight-up to Battle Mechs.

Quote

Tactical Operations, p. 337. "All rifles subtract 3 from their damage points when attacking any battlefield unit except conventional infantry, battle armor, 'Mechs with commercial armor, and support vehicles with a BAR less than 8. This can mean that the rifle inflicts no damage."

MG are not useless in TT.

When placed on a light Mech it adds anti-infantry fire power. Most of the time Lights are fighting Lights. If I am chasing another light and hit him with my Med Laser and My MG that is 7 points of damage to a Mech that has less than 10 points of armor in most location. So in several turns I have a good chase to severely damage him. An hopefully the 2 points are hitting internals causing critical damage.

When placed in an Assault Mech it adds Anti-infantry fire power. My PPC will only kill one or 2 infantry men, but, that MG will kill a dozen. An the MG adds to the damage against other assault Mech especially when we are face to face brawling it out and my big weapons have opened him up.

When you fire a MG in MWO it hits over a small area. Stand still and fire you MGs at a stationary target. You will see that it does not hit the same exact spot it does spread a little bit.

[General Taskeen]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 April 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Yes 2 damage per turn(10 seconds) or 0.2 damage per bullet. Or we need to define what equals a 'turn' in real time. I do not want to see a 0.5 ton weapon getting the same effect as a 6 ton AC. It was stupid on TT it would be stupid here.

Then they should do it like MW3 for christ sake! .2 Damage per bullet! VOILA.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 April 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

I under stand that... in principal StJobe. But people like you are not the ones I am posting to.

But 20 damage in the same amount of time as an AC2 does 40 is still a bit much to me for a 0.5 ton weapon. *Shrug* Buff it yes, but buff it in scale for its size. Make it equal to Small lasers or SRM2s.

I posted this in another thread where someone else said "there's a limit to what a 0.5 ton weapon should be capable of":

stjobe, on 21 April 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

There might well be, but look at the alpha damage per ton and DPS per ton of the MG compared to the Small Laser:
MG: 0.08 damage/ton, 0.8 DPS/ton
SL: 6.0 damage/ton, 2.0 DPS/ton

The SL has 2.5 times the DPS/ton of the MG; and as we've established elsewhere it's also much more effective in actually utilizing that DPS.

Perhaps I should mention also that the MG is useless without ammo which come in 1-ton lots, so you can get three Small Lasers for the weight of one MG. That's 7.5 times the DPS per ton for a single Small Laser compared to the MG.

So... Still think 1.2 DPS is too low?

The Small Laser has 7.5 times the DPS that the MG has when you look at DPS per ton. This would directly translate to a 3.0 DPS MG (0.4 x 7.5). Since several MGs can run off the same ammo, 3.0 is a maximum value.

Run the same calculations with four weapons (you don't want to run more than four MGs off a single ton of ammo):
4xMG: 0.16 damage / 3 tons
4xSL: 12 damage / 2 tons (75 times bigger alpha!)

4xMG: 1.6 DPS / 3 tons
4xSL: 4 DPS / 2 tons (2.5 times higher DPS)

2.5 times 0.4 is 1.0, which is then a minimum the MG needs to match the Small Laser.

So that gives us a range of increases between 1.0 DPS and 3.0 DPS to balance the MG. Why don't we split the difference and try out a 2.0 DPS MG?

Edited by stjobe, 22 April 2013 - 06:30 AM.

[MCXL]

Elizander, on 21 April 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Let's call it a modernized / upgraded Light Rifle then that can damage mechs.

That's the AC/2

Edited by MCXL, 22 April 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[buttmonkey]

i will agree there needs to be something between MGs and AC2s that light mechs can take advantage of, but i dont what the best weapon would be tbh

[Tennex]

MonkeyCheese, on 22 April 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

Exactly this when it comes to my raven 4x. The ac2 or ac5 just dont seem worth it for their weight/ammo requirements, sure the range is really great but I could do the same with erppcs/erll/lrms with more tonnage to spare.

AC2s are actually very powrful weapon maybe powerful than AC5s (ask the 4 AC2 Jag). but their heavy weight requirement (weapon+ammo+heatsinks) make them just as costly as AC5s. And not really the light weapon they claim to be.

i'd suggest they reduce the AC2s DPS by reducing fire rate. and then reducing overallweight (by reducing heat and ammo dependence)

right now there is actually a good bit of overlap with AC5s. because of similar weight requirements and damage output. they should move it down to its own niche

Edited by Tennex, 22 April 2013 - 06:46 AM.