318 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Lord of All, on 03 July 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

Link? deciding whether to put my vid card back in. tried playing on my htpc and got 9fps. Lol Main GPU still mining.

For one of the groups (the one I know): http://mwomercs.com/...k-mech-mondays/

[Malleus011]

I have a confession to make.

Since I can't play a Stock Mech mode, I've been taking my Stock Mechs into normal games.

PGI, stop this madness!

[Tesunie]

Malleus011, on 03 July 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Since I can't play a Stock Mech mode, I've been taking my Stock Mechs into normal games.

Same here... it what's even more sad? I've been in the top half (or better) with my stock mechs! Maybe what people say about Stock mechs are wrong... (and you just need to figure out how that stock mech needs to play.)

[Malleus011]

I played one drop on Mordor and scored three kills (all Clanners) with a stock BLR-1G. It really teaches you good heat management skills.

[Tesunie]

Malleus011, on 03 July 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

I played one drop on Mordor and scored three kills (all Clanners) with a stock BLR-1G. It really teaches you good heat management skills.

It also teaches good ammo conservation skills as well... as I've been running the 4J. You don't just spam the missiles and hope you hit. You wait for a nice solid lock, and then spam the missiles knowing they are going to hit!

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Since we get lobby recently, I will ask for a stock drop option in privet matches at least. Any respond to that from our dear PGI?

[ExAstra]

I would love a stock only mode. Would Hero and Champion mechs be allowed in as well, though? They're technically modified chassis.

My preference would be not to allow them. It'd also be nice if we had an ability to return a mech to stock configuration, and save particular loadouts to our files so that we could easily switch a mech between configurations at no cost provided you had all the equipment available.

Last bit was slightly off topic, sorry. Haha.

[Kmieciu]

Realistically, PGI will never implement a stock mech mode. Heros and champions equipped with DHS and Endo would wipe the floor with the rest of IS mechs. Clans would wipe the floor with IS Hero&champion mechs. Without mechlab, there would be even less variety on the battlefield.

So it's either PTW or SHS only. And PGI won't introduce a mode that discourages the use of mech bought with real money. Besides - how many people would be willing to spend hard earned C-Bills downgrade their customized mech or buy a new stock mech just for one game mode? It seems that those kind of people are already happy playing private matches. If only they were reworded with C-Bills and XP.

Edited by Kmieciu, 08 July 2014 - 02:53 AM.

[Nebelfeuer]

Kmieciu, on 08 July 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

Realistically, PGI will never implement a stock mech mode. Heros and champions equipped with DHS and Endo would wipe the floor with the rest of IS mechs. Clans would wipe the floor with IS Hero&champion mechs. Without mechlab, there would be even less variety on the battlefield.

A) a stock mech mode would need to be separated by era. so there would be no DH in an era where only SH where avaliable. Since also Champion and hero mechs are not canon stock designs you could also exclude them completely.
b ) the variety would not be in mechdesigns but in the knowlege about strenghs and weaknesses of your and your opponents mechs at a brief glance. Since these are fixed(e.g.weak rear armor, ammo shortage, heatproblems, etc) and the pace of battle is a lot slower(less pinpoint alpha and slower heatremoval) in a stock match it is much more a game between pilots then between designers so there would actually be more variety in fightingstyle. While you currently make your mechs fit your fightingstyle you would need to adapt your fighting style to your mechs when playing stock - again more variety in gameplay in stockmode.

Edited by Nebelfeuer, 08 July 2014 - 03:29 AM.

[w0rm]

It amazes me that people always fail to see is:

Everyone will just take the stockmechs that aren't ****. You don't get more variety. You don't get more complex matches. All you get is a slightly different meta that resolves around badly build mechs getting stomped by slightly less ****** build mechs.

[Nebelfeuer]

w0rm, on 08 July 2014 - 03:37 AM, said:

It amazes me that people always fail to see is:

Everyone will just take the stockmechs that aren't ****. You don't get more variety. You don't get more complex matches. All you get is a slightly different meta that resolves around badly build mechs getting stomped by slightly less ****** build mechs.

Just being curious: which mechs would make it to your slightly less **** list and define the meta, say in a era 3025 match in your opinion?

Edited by Nebelfeuer, 08 July 2014 - 04:51 AM.

[Tesunie]

Kmieciu, on 08 July 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

Realistically, PGI will never implement a stock mech mode. Heros and champions equipped with DHS and Endo would wipe the floor with the rest of IS mechs. Clans would wipe the floor with IS Hero&champion mechs. Without mechlab, there would be even less variety on the battlefield.

So it's either PTW or SHS only. And PGI won't introduce a mode that discourages the use of mech bought with real money. Besides - how many people would be willing to spend hard earned C-Bills downgrade their customized mech or buy a new stock mech just for one game mode? It seems that those kind of people are already happy playing private matches. If only they were reworded with C-Bills and XP.

Stock Mech Mode would, as being requested here, would revert all mechs to their stock form for you (for free), so Champion mechs would revert to their stock (not champion stock, but base stock) form. Hero mechs could probably remain as they are in this form. This would be a game mode for people interested more in lore and "classic" play.

I think your PTW is Pay to win? What does SHS mean? Not familiar with these terms (by this shorthand at least),

Something we who have played SMM (Stock Mech Monday) and done Clans vs Inner Sphere found out is that it actually isn't too bad. It's been a blast and we haven't found a "bad mech build" for stock yet really. Some mechs are harder to use, but the mechs that current meta say is bad is actually really good in stock matches. Mechs that are really good in meta preform decent still in stock matches.

I don't think there would be a "stock meta" really. Some mechs may become more favored, but not nearly as much as we see in the current game play. Some of the trick would be to find the stock mech that fits your playstyle and works for you. As more mechs are added in, more variety would be seen in stock mech mode.

(A lot of what you see as limiting options/meta/etc actually is even worse in the current game modes than what I've seen in SMM matches. I've seen a lot of variety in my SMM matches, though not all mechs have seen the battlefield yet. Part of that problem is exactly for the reason you mentioned above, not everyone wants to have to spend money to revert a customized mech to stock form, or buy a new stock mech to just sit in their mechbays. A game mode would make players who play with stock mechs be able to use more options, instead of having to specifically set up mechs for the matches.)

I invite you to experience a couple of stock matches. See what most of us are talking about, and why we feel this game mode would be an awesome addition to MWO. Stock Mech Mondays can always use more people!

Nebelfeuer, on 08 July 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

A) a stock mech mode would need to be separated by era. so there would be no DH in an era where only SH where avaliable. Since also Champion and hero mechs are not canon stock designs you could also exclude them completely.

I don't think we would have to separate by era for a Stock Mech Mode (SMM? I thought that stood for Stock Mech Mondays! ). Just having auto-revert to stock mode would be great. So far, I've been hearing that stock vs stock has been a rather level experience to people who play it, even clan vs IS.

[w0rm]

Nebelfeuer, on 08 July 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Just being curious: which mechs would make it to your slightly less **** list and define the meta, say in a era 3025 match in your opinion?

Lights:
RVN-3L/4X

Mediums:
HBK-4G/4SP


Heavys:
CTF-4X/3D
TDR-9SE
QKD-5K

Assaults:
VKT-9S/9K
AS7-D-DC

are the least shittiest stock mechs (clans/heros excluded).

[Nebelfeuer]

Tesunie, on 08 July 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

I don't think we would have to separate by era for a Stock Mech Mode (SMM? I thought that stood for Stock Mech Mondays! ). Just having auto-revert to stock mode would be great. So far, I've been hearing that stock vs stock has been a rather level experience to people who play it, even clan vs IS.

AFAIK Stock Mech Monday does divide into "tech 1" and "all tech" games which is basically the same as eras. Double heat sinks against single ones is quite a difference especially on hot maps even when you are playing stock so there should be a separation in my opinion. Without separating it, it would still be more fun then the current game, but it would indeed favour a few designs significantly over others.

w0rm, on 08 July 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Lights:
RVN-3L/4X

Mediums:
HBK-4G/4SP


Heavys:
CTF-4X/3D
TDR-9SE
QKD-5K

Assaults:
VKT-9S/9K
AS7-D-DC

are the least shittiest stock mechs (clans/heros excluded).

Well, half of your named variant would not be avaliable in a 3025(tech 1) match due to(DoubleHeatSinks, Pulse lasers, etc) but other than that I can not really see a real advantage over other avaliable chassis.

Edited by Nebelfeuer, 08 July 2014 - 06:48 AM.

[Tesunie]

w0rm, on 08 July 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Lights:
RVN-3L- Only stock mech with ECM at the moment. Very powerful for a stock mech. Usually excluded from SMM, as we mostly play tech level 1. However, in matches where it was played... Ouch!
4X- Was one of the top performers in several matches. I believe it also has more armor than other Raven's in it's Stock configurations.

Mediums:
HBK-4G- Being one of the lightest mechs to have an AC20 stock, and one of the few mechs to have it stock, this mech is a beast in stock matches. It doesn't have much ammo, which is why you make each shot count.
4SP- Seen this also in play in SMM. Worked very well from what I saw. Can't recall it's end scores though. I don't see this too often in SMM, but I think that's because not many people have one stock.


Heavys:
CTF-4X/3D- I honestly don't see too many Cataphrats on SMM. 3D has DHS and UAC5, which means a lot of firepower. 4X looks like a good stock contender as well, with dual cool running AC5s, some LRMs for range, and a large laser in the center when you run out of ammo (which will happen). But, backed by 4 tons of AC ammo... your ACs will be shooting for most of the match with no problems. The 4X would be permitted in SMM. The 3D would be excluded from our level 1 tech matches at least.
TDR-9SE- I don't see very many Thunderbolts. They do have great armor for a stock mech though! Looking at this Thunderbolt (I was tempted to revert my 9SE to stock for SMM, but at the time DHS excluded it), it looks like it will be a beast. LRMs while out of line of sight but helpful, with a lot of close range weapons afterwards.
QKD-5K- This would could be harder to pilot than other Quickdraws, but in SMM, we tend to actually get close to each other, and it's got great cooling for a stock mech. DHS would exclude it from a tech 1 match, but overall it looks like it'd be a good mech stock. I've seen other Quickdraws played in SMM, but not this one because of it's DHS.

Assaults:
VKT-9S/9K- Gauss and AC20... The Gauss is going to hurt as it's got range, which will be important with how slow everyone moves. Still have good close in fighting power. That AC20 version though... is going to hurt at close range, which it should be able to get into. (Most stock mechs are made for closer ranges it seems.) Haven't seen these guys so much in SMM though.
AS7-D-DC- This was actually the most popular Atlas people played in SMM. It was also the only mech to come with a CC, which we let it be the only mech that could use Modules in our matches. It was frightening to see an Atlas in SMM... They are a real beast, at ANY range!

Are these the "bad mechs" for stock? I added notes above.

[Tesunie]

Nebelfeuer, on 08 July 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

AFAIK Stock Mech Monday does divide into "tech 1" and "all tech" games which is basically the same as eras. Double heat sinks against single ones is quite a difference especially on hot maps even when you are playing stock so there should be a separation in my opinion. Without separating it, it would still be more fun then the current game, but it would indeed favour a few designs significantly over others.

You are talking to someone crazy enough to bring my stock 4J into PUG matches... and I did surprisingly well in it!

Most DHS mechs are actually heat plagued designs because they added in hotter weapons or more weapons. However, besides in a PUG match, I have not played anything besides tech 1 for the moment. I always jumped into whichever group was smallest, and when clans were released, all tech was full. I'll try to get into all tech matches before too long... Can't wait to bash some clanners with my 4J!

[General Taskeen]

w0rm, on 08 July 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Lights:
RVN-3L/4X

Mediums:
HBK-4G/4SP


Heavys:
CTF-4X/3D
TDR-9SE
QKD-5K

Assaults:
VKT-9S/9K
AS7-D-DC

are the least shittiest stock mechs (clans/heros excluded).

I highly recommend joining the Stock community at MechForce Classic due see for yourself.

From your list, here are mine and probably others observations in the superior Stock Mode:

Lights:
RVN-3L - only useful for 3050 mode, also slow 97.2 km/h, weak armor amount on legs, XL engine weakspot, requires careful positioning with team as other faster stock Lights will tear it to pieces (But yes ECM is totally backwards from what it should do if that's what you are getting at)
RVN-4X - Your guess is right, it is good in 3025 mode, but only when played for its role. Its speed is 81 km/h and armor is 272, making it as fast and armored as some Medium Mechs. It is therefore a "pocket medium" and only excels in that role, it is not good for scouting. Its sister variant the 2X is also very good due to its long range capability with a Large Laser to hold off an enemy at range. (A Heavy Stock Dragon can easily chase these down and give them a bad day)

Mediums:
HBK-4G - Very good stock 'Mech in 3025, but not when alone as its relatively slow at 64.8 km/h meaning most Heavies and some Assaults will catch up to it. It has 2 tons of ammo only located in the opposite torso, with no CASE, meaning it has two weak spots. Very weak rear armor. All in all, a decent 'Mech to use if you are paired with another Hunchback, Centurion, or a couple of faster Mediums for support.
HBK-4SP - Also very good stock 'Mech in 3025, same disadvantages with the speed at 64.8 km/h. Its also not as heavy hitting as a 4G and it is better suited to skirmishing and can lost longer if using it as such.


Heavys:
CTF-4X - Pretty good in Stock 3025, but has a tougher time in 3050 due to faster stock builds. Its ammo reserves can lay down a lot fire power in conjunction with the Large Laser and LRM5. Its disadvantage though is its speed, which is the same as some Assault Mechs and with less armor than some Assault Mechs. It is therefore best paired as a support for Assault Mechs.
CTF-3D - Semi-useful for Stock 3050 but not as useful as you might think, since it has several disadvantages. Limited ammo for its UAC/5 and LB/10-X, both of which must be used conservatively. It also has the weakness of its XL engine and should stay at range until it can afford to get closer without getting focused fired.
TDR-9SE - Useful for Stock 3050, not much as to say other than it has a disadvantage of mostly close range firepower, whereas other Thunderbolts have long-range weaponry.
QKD-5K - Useful for Stock 3050 for its speed and sustained firepower, but its main disadvantage is its weaker armor. It can not stay engaged in a protracted battle for long and is better suited to hit-and-run, fade-in-fade-out.

Assaults:
VTR-9S - Fairly decent in any Stock Mode, with 1 more ton of AC/20 ammo than a HBK-4G. However, all its weaponry is suited for close range fire power, making it easy pickings for a Stock Mech with long-range weaponry. Best suited for ambushing or flanking. Players should be aware that its armor is also a lot less on a 9S (less than most Heavy Mechs), compared to a 9B
VTR-9K - Pretty good in Stock 3050, high armor and decent speed. However, its ammo count is low for the Gauss and backup SRM4. Its best suited for supporting at long range and not for brawling with its limited weaponry. Its higher armor and CASE however will help it survive longer.
AS7-D-DC - Average in either Stock Mode and better suited to the role of "Command." Its main disadvantage of course being that it can not "zombie" as well as an AS7-D due to lack of center mounted lasers. While it has a huge amount of armor, its ammunition supply is very limited and must be used conservatively.


Further observations of useful Stock Mechs, there are a lot and most fit into certain useful roles. I have seen people use all of these Mechs and do well in them:

Lights
Stock Scout Mechs
LCT-All variants - The fastest Light Mech available with little else able to catch up with it, making its role as a Scout very well suited. While it has low armor, it has enough fire power and armor to deal with its opponents including its main adversaries, the Spider and Jenner. The weakest link is the 1M, which is purely a support Locust and must stay out of sight and at range.
SPD-All variants - The other fastest Light Mech avaialble, but with less fire power. The 5V, 5K being the best, with the 5D being marginally useful, but otherwise heat efficient. Its hitboxes also keep it alive for some time.
JR7-All Variants - The D and K are the second faster stock scout mechs available, with similar armor as their Locust and Spider brethen. The F gets special mention as it is truly the "scout hunter" with 224 armor and 4 ML and thus can stay in protacted battles against other Light Mechs, but must watch its heat.

Skirmisher Light Mechs
COM-1B, 2D - Commando's are surprisingly good in either Stock Mode. They are fairly heat neutral, have the same armor as a Locust or JR7-D and just fast enough at 97.2 km/h as a mid-range Scout. They however are best suited for skirmishing, ambushing, protecting the heavy hitters. The 3A, 1D are less armored and while decent are always best staying behind your main force or with a supporting Medium or Heavy.
FS9-All Variants - Also very good in Stock Mode and have the same speed as a Commando. Where a Commando should use hit-and-run, the Firestarter can stick around a lot longer due to higher armor and is more maneuverable.

Mediums
CN9-All Variants - The Centurion has proven to be one of the best Medium Mechs due to its generalist role, high armor, and decent fire power. When paired with a Hunchback or Trebuchet, you've seen the pinacle of "stock meta."

(Best Fire Support Mediums) - > Griffins, Blackjacks, Wolverines, Trebuchets, and Shadowhawks
(Best "scout" Medium) -> Cicada's and CN9-D (3050 Mode)
(Best Brawler Mediums) -> Hunchbacks and Kintaros

Heavies:
DRG-All Variants - The Dragon has proven to be the best all around Heavy Mech in Stock Mode. Fast, heavily armored, and fairly heat neutral. Its weakness is limited weaponry, but it can keep on firing until the guns run dry.
TDR-All Variants - The Thunderbolt has a vast array of useful variants for either 3025 or 3050 with a mix-bag of long-mid-close range firepower. One of the best so far has been the 5S and 5SS. Nearly maximum armor and average speed.
ON1-All Variants (depending on role) - The Orions are basically the "Assault" Mechs of the Heavy Class. Massive armor, average speed of 64.8 km/h and heavy hitting firepower. The K, V, can not afford to alpha fire and must be careful of heat though, whereas the VA and M are a little more forgiving
CTF-All Variants - Best mentions are the 1X, 2X, and 4X, all heavily armored and armed. The 3D is decent in a supporting role.

(Best Fire Support Stocks) - JagerMech (special mention for the S and DD, low armor but amazing DPS), Catapults, and Quickdraws

Assaults
AWS-All Variants - Special mention goes to the 8Q, pure PPC stock meta with enough heatsinks to keep on firing. Well rounded armor and firepower all around for all variants. The 9M can be the trickiest to master and requires careful heat management. Its weakness is mainly its speed, the same as an Atlas and should be paired with one. They also have less armor than other heavier Assaults.
AS7-All Variants - Nothing much to say here, they are the best 100 tons available with all kinds of firepower and full armor, but usually limited ammunition. The best Brawler Assault basically in stock mode.
BLR-All Variants - Hands down best Assault Mech in Stock Mode with a blazing speed (for an assault) of 64.8 km/h, high armor, and decent firepower. The 1D is the most heat efficient and keep pace even with 3050 stocks using DHS.

(Other Awesome Multi Role Assaults) Highlander, and Banshees
(Best Support Assaults) Stalkers
(Best Ambush/Brawlers) Victor-9B, Higherland-733C

You would be surprised how many stock mechs are actually useful. I basically mentioned every one available. As I mentioned, I've seen people excel in many different ones, since Stock Mechs have a wide-variety of pre-defined roles.

Conclusion: Stock "Meta" has a wider variety of 'Mechs seen fielded, "Weaker" variants or Mechs rarely seen in "Customization Mode" excel in Stock Mode for 3025 or 3050

Edited by General Taskeen, 08 July 2014 - 08:42 AM.

[Tesunie]

General Taskeen, on 08 July 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

What? No special mention for my beloved Hunchback 4J? I feel so left out now...

[General Taskeen]

I forgot to say that every Hunchback variant is useful and awesome .

[Tesunie]

General Taskeen, on 08 July 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

I forgot to say that every Hunchback variant is useful and awesome .

That's more like it!