157 replies to this topic

[Trulock]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 April 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Return heat to full TT values and all will be fine.

Meh I don't want to have enough time to get out of my mech, light a cigarette on it and smoke it before I can shoot again. That would slow the game down way too much.

[Acid Phase]

Rhent, on 29 April 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Hard Point reduction is a fail concept. It only benefits the people who want to run a mixed build that does nothing well.

Just your post tells me how this community lacks variety so much that boating is the new phase and everyone wants sit on that fat c**k. I for one respect those who play with a combination of energy, missile and ballistic. Unfortunately it's a community out there not willing to work and they just want the easy kills. Hence the boating. It's all I see out there. Hard point restrictions do not fail to the experienced pilot.

Edited by Acid Phase, 30 April 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Trulock, on 30 April 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Meh I don't want to have enough time to get out of my mech, light a cigarette on it and smoke it before I can shoot again. That would slow the game down way too much.

Then don't pack 6 PPCs if you don't have the sinks.

[Mister Blastman]

oneda, on 30 April 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

I just watched this video , where the guy demonstrates the 6 ppc build.

While it does tremendous amounts of damage, it clearly exploits the game's forgiveness concerning constant overheating to a

When a mech alphas near the redline and pushes them way over the redline, MWO shouldn't allow you to shut down--it should make you explode instantly. While doing this wouldn't fix the current high-alpha metagame, it would be one step into making MWO better.

[Joseph Mallan]

A TT house rule I heard once was that if you shut down due to heat 1)only the engine sinks can vent your heat. 2) They are single efficiency. 3) You cannot power up till you are a 50% heat on the scale. I thought it was an interesting concept.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 April 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[Trulock]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 April 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Then don't pack 6 PPCs if you don't have the sinks.

Go up one post and you will see my proposal on how to fix it. I mostly run a dragon with 2 ppc and something else. So boating is not my problem and I would rather keep my 2 ppc's to work as is with removing 2 heat sinks than take a massive heat nerf again. 1 tonne extra is alot if you run 6. That is 6 extra tonnes you need to get from somewhere so you will have less heat sinks and a smaller engine.

[Joseph Mallan]

Trulock, on 30 April 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Go up one post and you will see my proposal on how to fix it. I mostly run a dragon with 2 ppc and something else. So boating is not my problem and I would rather keep my 2 ppc's to work as is with removing 2 heat sinks than take a massive heat nerf again. 1 tonne extra is alot if you run 6. That is 6 extra tonnes you need to get from somewhere so you will have less heat sinks and a smaller engine.

Well high heat is a property of PPCs. Right now it is to low. I understand your position But a PPC has been 10 damage and heat and ERPPCs 10 damage and 15 heat. or decades.

2 PPCs are a nice combo but few heavies ever carried 2 and were heat efficient. In fact the only truly heat efficient PPC Mech was the Thug(-6 on the scale running!)

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 April 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[Lightfoot]

@Oneda

Yes, in all previous MechWarrior games the Stalker would have blown up, certainly on the third shot. Kaboom.

What the 6xPPC Stalker shows is that the game needs a hard heat cap, actual double heatsinks, and PPCs ERPPCs that do the correct amounts of heat. Energy weapons were cooled down because DHS at 1.4 don't allow Battletech Stock Energy Boats to operate. That's a critical failure of DHS 1.4, turning into a soft heatcap, turning into cooled down energy weapons, turning into the 6xPPC Stalker.

So my advice is don't mess with the core mechanics of Battletech even if you think you see a problem that could be fixed if you just replaced DHS 2.0 with DHS 1.4. You can tweak things a little and get away with it, but major changes will result in new demons taking the place of what you thought you fixed.

On a side note, I would like to point out that all of the Stalker's targets were standing still on a ridge. I hope you all aren't doing this.

By the way, if you use a joystick, you no longer need to stand still to aim and fire. However it does help if my targets stand still while I am aiming.

Edited by Lightfoot, 30 April 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Howdy Doody]

Mister Blastman, on 30 April 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

When a mech alphas near the redline and pushes them way over the redline, MWO shouldn't allow you to shut down--it should make you explode instantly.  While doing this wouldn't fix the current high-alpha metagame, it would be one step into making MWO better.

This seems to be the biggest issue to me.  I don't understand why you can fire all 6 while at redline.  There should be something in the system that shouldn't allow all 6 to fire if 2 will over heat you.  Or you can Override before you fire and take a chance and cooking some components.

So lets say on my 6 PPC stalker I'm near shutdown and I alpha.  If 2 PPCs would shut me down, then only those 2 should fire and shut me down.  3,4,5,6 shouldn't even fire.  This would make folks think twice before alpha firing now that there is a much decreased damage out put per shutdown.

Or....REALLY and I mean REALLY increase the shut down time when you over cook yourself!

Edited by Howdy Doody, 30 April 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[Braggart]

Lightfoot, on 30 April 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

@Oneda

Yes, in all previous MechWarrior games the Stalker would have blown up, certainly on the third shot. Kaboom.

What the 6xPPC Stalker shows is that the game needs a hard heat cap, actual double heatsinks, and PPCs ERPPCs that do the correct amounts of heat. Energy weapons were cooled down because DHS at 1.4 don't allow Battletech Stock Energy Boats to operate. That's a critical failure of DHS 1.4, turning into a soft heatcap, turning into cooled down energy weapons, turning into the 6xPPC Stalker.

So my advice is don't mess with the core mechanics of Battletech even if you think you see a problem that could be fixed if you just replaced DHS 2.0 with DHS 1.4. You can tweak things a little and get away with it, but major changes will result in new demons taking the place of what you thought you fixed.

I'm sorry I have to disagree entirely. you cannot take a random dice based game and port the stats over to a real time game and expect it to work.

Nothing but names should come from table top, the entire system needs revision to work in real time, esp when you have pinpoint accuracy with all weapons.

[Razgal]

I just saw the video and my jaw dropped. This explains some of the wtf moments I been having.

[Corbon Zackery]

PPC are getting a discount on there heat as for snipes and stuff like that I took the trial Awesome for a spin a few days ago and to move and aim with PPC let alone snipe with them is next to impossible most people are locking there arms for stability. You can see in the vid that his arms are locked and he has the sensitivity of his joystick set to next to 0 and the return rate to center set at max speed that's why he jerking so hard in the turn and how it returns to center so fast.

Probably Modification to the unlocked config. file.

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 30 April 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[Thalos]

so much crying about nothing, learn to play your mech, weapon load outs are a choice so why don't you use ppc's if your crying so much about them. Honestly this game is full of cry ***** who would have every weapon in the game nerfed to nothing. Its a mech universe, brutal destructive alpha not care bear universe.

[Mister Blastman]

Howdy Doody, on 30 April 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

This seems to be the biggest issue to me. I don't understand why you can fire all 6 while at redline. There should be something in the system that shouldn't allow all 6 to fire if 2 will over heat you. Or you can Override before you fire and take a chance and cooking some components.

Well what it could do is force an automatic override and, well, you shoot the alpha at 80% (per the old heat values), that'd put you at 150% and... that isn't going to cool you off fast enough before you pop.

That's one solution, at least. Something has to be done here.

Thalos, on 30 April 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

so much crying about nothing, learn to play your mech, weapon load outs are a choice so why don't you use ppc's if your crying so much about them. Honestly this game is full of cry ***** who would have every weapon in the game nerfed to nothing. Its a mech universe, brutal destructive alpha not care bear universe.

Umm, we don't want the game nerfed into nothing--we want the broken state to be fixed to allow for greater diversity and depth in the game.

I can take a PPC mech anytime if you'd like to duel. Name the place and time. I do it just fine, thanks.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 30 April 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Braggart, on 30 April 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

I'm sorry I have to disagree entirely. you cannot take a random dice based game and port the stats over to a real time game and expect it to work.

Nothing but names should come from table top, the entire system needs revision to work in real time, esp when you have pinpoint accuracy with all weapons.

You miss the point I think. Battletech is a time balanced system. Things work the way they do for well founded reasons of balancing. Especially the core mechanics of weight, heat, damage, recycle. The 6xPPC Stalker was actually created by the DHS 1.4 heat nerf. Ironically this config was supposed to be what DHS 1.4 fixed.

Now I agree you need to tweak some damage models to work in a multiplayer setting. MWO's LRMs are a good case in point. They have never worked because they try to have them drop down from space and always hit like in TT. Well that's going to either be OP or too weak, so ends up, they can only be used by boats.

Also if you redesigned everything from the ground up it would not resemble or be able to claim a relationship to MechWarrior.

Yep, weapons go where ya aim them in MechWarrior. No fuzzy aim in any previous games so this doesn't need to be added. I don't think you would like it if you made an accurate shot and the game said you missed and you lost the match because weapons don't aim anymore. Frankly that's the worst anti-boating solution I have ever read.

[Lightfoot]

Howdy Doody, on 30 April 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

This seems to be the biggest issue to me. I don't understand why you can fire all 6 while at redline. There should be something in the system that shouldn't allow all 6 to fire if 2 will over heat you. Or you can Override before you fire and take a chance and cooking some components.

So lets say on my 6 PPC stalker I'm near shutdown and I alpha. If 2 PPCs would shut me down, then only those 2 should fire and shut me down. 3,4,5,6 shouldn't even fire. This would make folks think twice before alpha firing now that there is a much decreased damage out put per shutdown.

Or....REALLY and I mean REALLY increase the shut down time when you over cook yourself!

Well, yes and no. Firing 6xPPCs with your heat over 75% of maximum, redlined, should blow the mech up, but it's up to the pilot to make the decision not to fire all 6. That sounds harsh, but sometimes players have to learn not to boat energy weapons the hard way.

[Howdy Doody]

Lightfoot, on 30 April 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Well, yes and no. Firing 6xPPCs with your heat over 75% of maximum, redlined, should blow the mech up, but it's up to the pilot to make the decision not to fire all 6. That sounds harsh, but sometimes players have to learn not to boat energy weapons the hard way.

I'm liking the thinking here.

What if the weapon groups you have are disabled until you have the proper heat threshold to fire them. Over ride would enable all weapon groups regardless of heat but then you pay the price.

Any group that has Chain fire attached will treat each weapon as an individual and fire the first one in order that is enabled.

This could force more creative Weapon Group creation on boats and/or force more chain fire.

I'm sure this idea has been discussed before, I've just not run into it.

Doody

[Antarus]

Trulock, on 30 April 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Go up one post and you will see my proposal on how to fix it. I mostly run a dragon with 2 ppc and something else. So boating is not my problem and I would rather keep my 2 ppc's to work as is with removing 2 heat sinks than take a massive heat nerf again. 1 tonne extra is alot if you run 6. That is 6 extra tonnes you need to get from somewhere so you will have less heat sinks and a smaller engine.

You seem to be missing the entire problem here. The dragon can't abuse the awful max heat cap rules that PGI created because it needs to move to survive. These high alpha builds hide and/or are heavy enough and/or use jump jets to never, ever be punished for being shut down via overheat. The fact that heat sinks add to your cap and don't just cool is what is breaking the game by allowing for this behavior.

[Trauglodyte]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 April 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Less unused HPs on Mechs would remove the problem of this. Stalker is sticking point though. It is for all intend and purposes a boaters dream. I called it before it was released.6 lasers an 4 Missiles... Only thing it is missing is Ballistics!

I understand he logic behind adding an extra hard point or two to some configs, But did an Awesome need 4 more? Or a Pult-A1 need 4 more Missiles? Reduce the over abundant HPs and for the most part Boating is gone.

Well, there is actually a good reason why they did that. You ultimately end up with a situation where you're looking at variants and the only diciminating factor is how many hard points it has which leads to variants getting tossed aside by the min/maxers. A good example of this is the Catapult. As PGI based HPs on the max number of weapons the chassis carried, you have the following:

A1 - 2 missiles
C1 - 4 lasers, 2 missiles
C4 - 1 laser, 2 missiles
K2 - 4 lasers, 2 ballistics

Looking at the TT weapon slots, would you ever pick the A1 or the C4 over the C1? So they looked at the K2 and balanced the other variants with the same number of hard points giving us:

A1 - 6 missiles
C1 - 4 lasers, 2 missiles
C4 - 2 lasers, 4 missiles
K2 - 4 lasers, 2 ballistics

They created imbalance by designing inter-chassis ballance. I don't mind that they did that but now there isn't any real reason to want one variant over the other outside of the max number of the most OP weapons at the time.

Just to illustrate it a bit more eloquantly, I took the time to map this all out (I was bored at work so don't laugh). If you exclude the Highlander and the Hero mechs, you get the following HP/weapon slot discrepancies: TT - 291 vs MWO - 368 (59 variants of 15 mechs). MWO has added 77 additional weapon points across those 15 mechs and we still have ineffective or imbalanced weapons like the MG, Flamer, LB, and AC5 not including the current state of missiles. With no heat penalties and the ability to override heat without any additional effects, yeah, we're in a world of hurt.

[Mechrophilia]

Why don't they just make it so that when you overheat, each weapon has a % chance of being destroyed. I mean outright destroyed (not critical hit damage). You could explain it as melted wires connecting the weapon to the computer, or something.

Edited by Mechrophilia, 30 April 2013 - 01:30 PM.