61 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 April 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

BUT Alpha Striking is a tactic that should not be squashed. The objective of he game for me is to find he right mix of weapons that I CAN fire in a Alpha anytime I want. Every time I want. If you are in my cross hairs I want you dead...NOW. I would expect this is the objective of everyone, because I don't see a reason to allow someone the opportunity to defeat me! The only time I ever chain fire is when my heat is reaching the breaking point. and that doesn't happen to often. Remember the objective of my playing this game is for me to have fun killing you... and vice verse. I don't expect you to play nice. I expect you to be a blood thirsty monster of death. Just like I am trying to be!

Alpha Striking does not need to be squashed, it has its place, BUT it should not be the default mode for mechwarriors to play. Alphas should never magically all hit in the same spot, and there needs to be penalties (heat) for using them. Alphas are meant as a desperation move in the Battletech universe. Big risk for potential big reward. There is no risk associated with Alpha striking in MW:O.

[Belorion]

They should just disable chain firing, and firing while they are at it.

When people fire their weapons at my mech it gets hurt. Clearly OP and needs attention.

Hotthedd, on 30 April 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

Alpha Striking does not need to be squashed, it has its place, BUT it should not be the default mode for mechwarriors to play. Alphas should never magically all hit in the same spot, and there needs to be penalties (heat) for using them. Alphas are meant as a desperation move in the Battletech universe. Big risk for potential big reward. There is no risk associated with Alpha striking in MW:O.

Magically hits the same spot? Wow, I never knew a weapon firing where you pointed it was magic.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sorry but it has been mine for a couple decades. As for all not hitting the same spot. I can only agree. I am on boar for having ou heat penalties added o MWO. It would cripple 6xPPC boats in a single salvo. They would slow right down, frizz out the Targeting CPU, the works! That is how to limit the Boating of Energy weapons.

Belorion, on 30 April 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

They should just disable chain firing, and firing while they are at it.

When people fire their weapons at my mech it gets hurt. Clearly OP and needs attention.



Magically hits the same spot? Wow, I never knew a weapon firing where you pointed it was magic.

Try firing on a rifle range. I aimed for the head an my rounds would hit anywhere from the belt line to the eye socket at 500m. Trust me, ballistics can do some silly stuff.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 April 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Try firing on a rifle range. I aimed for the head an my rounds would hit anywhere from the belt line to the eye socket at 500m. Trust me, ballistics can do some silly stuff.

Oh depends on the rifle....have fired a random spread weapon once... really every shot goes at another "location"....

They made jokes about me...laughed at me...and then i forced them to give me another rifle......they stoped laughing....5 shots 10sec 200m minimal spread...all hits in area of 8 - 10.

So alpha strike warrior in MWO is like the second rifle...fast precise...but it should really be more like the first broken rifle...hit anything and everything...because the Targeting and Tracking got weird in calculating the right solution for those multiple angles and vectors and everything else.

[Prezimonto]

I'm completely mystified why this game allows perfect, automatic convergence at all ranges without even a wait time. I can't think of a single game that allows snipers to fire without a scope-in time and often scope sway. Similar concepts can be modeled into this game with a small delay on convergence for torso mounted weapons when changing range.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 30 April 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Oh depends on the rifle....have fired a random spread weapon once... really every shot goes at another "location"....

They made jokes about me...laughed at me...and then i forced them to give me another rifle......they stoped laughing....5 shots 10sec 200m minimal spread...all hits in area of 8 - 10.

So alpha strike warrior in MWO is like the second rifle...fast precise...but it should really be more like the first broken rifle...hit anything and everything...because the Targeting and Tracking got weird in calculating the right solution for those multiple angles and vectors and everything else.

Sounds like my experience. We fired some 30-06 sniper rifles once and the fact I was able to shoot the "A" out of the Word "Meals" at 200m with 5 bullets was a joy!

[Villz]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 April 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

Many online RPGs have global cooldowns, which disallow using multiple powers together and cannot be beaten by macros. If PGI wanted to enforce chain fire and no longe rallow people to fire multiple weapons together, there are ways to do it.

The question is more if they want to go that route, or if we want them to go that route, and if it will achieve anything.

I say it might work. I can't react to 60 damage suddenly hitting me, but I might manage to react to 10 damage hiting me every 0.5 seconds for 3 seconds. (But if I don't react, I figure that a decent player can still hit the same location with each shot, even if he's forced to chain-fire.)

that is possible the stupidest thing iv ever heard.....
global cooldown on firing weapons in a FPS game all because u dont understand how to play the game correctly. god i hope you don't participate in whatever political system is in your country.
And just FYI to make u look even stupider. There was a hack that people used in wow for years before it became public amongst the arena pvp community that reduced ur global cooldown by modifing the local files. And it got past Blizzard's Warden. So what hope do u think PGI have if blizz failed?

[Joseph Mallan]

Villz, on 30 April 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

that is possible the stupidest thing iv ever heard.....
global cooldown on firing weapons in a FPS game all because u dont understand how to play the game correctly. god i hope you don't participate in whatever political system is in your country.
And just FYI to make u look even stupider. There was a hack that people used in wow for years before it became public amongst the arena pvp community that reduced ur global cooldown by modifing the local files. And it got past Blizzard's Warden. So what hope do u think PGI have if blizz failed?

Pretty good, since the precedence was already set.

[MaddMaxx]

Denno, on 30 April 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

Everyone would just use macros. Hell, some do now already.

Unless you can cheat the Cool Down times, a Macro is not a big deal. Your available DPS is never changed.

[mekabuser]

I dont see removing alphas solving anything as I am quite successful and I alpha rarely.
example.
my atlas has lrm 10 group four left erppc group one , gauss group two . and both erppc group three.
only rarely do i fire the gauss and both ppcs at the same time. Mostly for heat reasons, also because half the atlas is usually behind cover and i only want to slap you with either the right or left weapons.
my awesome has both erppcs on the right arm set to chain which is actually better for me for heat and when at range sometimes i just like to fire once so just one ppc goes down range. Firing for effect and keeping heat in line.
alpha strikes are nothing compared to mw4 so its not an issue for me.

[Leiska]

Hotthedd, on 30 April 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

Alpha Striking does not need to be squashed, it has its place, BUT it should not be the default mode for mechwarriors to play. Alphas should never magically all hit in the same spot, and there needs to be penalties (heat) for using them. Alphas are meant as a desperation move in the Battletech universe. Big risk for potential big reward. There is no risk associated with Alpha striking in MW:O.

Alphas will never be simply a desperation move unless you built your mech wrong, which applies to basically all canon stock variants. If more heat penalties are added, the smart players will simply run less guns and still alpha you every time, because, unlike most things in BT, alpha strikes make sense.

Prezimonto, on 30 April 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

I'm completely mystified why this game allows perfect, automatic convergence at all ranges without even a wait time. I can't think of a single game that allows snipers to fire without a scope-in time and often scope sway. Similar concepts can be modeled into this game with a small delay on convergence for torso mounted weapons when changing range.

There probably actually is a wait time as one of the elite mech skills reduces convergence wait time. It's not very noticeable, though.

[Kill Dozer]

Alpha strikes have existed in Mechwarrior since the very beginning, as has weapon load tweaking and "boating" of certain weapons that are effective in given situations, this is expected behavior. Each weapon has its pro's and cons that have to be considered, failure to choose wisely could cost you the match.

Mechwarriors are expected to bring the best mech, with the best build, to every fight. If this game, like previous games, allowed players to choose the map you would see even more focused builds coming into play.

The counter to "alpha strike" mechs is, wait for it.......... team work.

Each team should work together to overcome the primary threats on the other team, i.e. the most dangerous mech's are targeted first, by everyone that can get a cross-hair on them.

Some simple concepts that over come the "alpha":
~overlapping fields of fire
~target/fire concentration
~situational awareness
~battlefield mobility

I could go on but this isn't new material since Mechwarrior has been around for 20+ years.

[Lostdragon]

Leiska, on 30 April 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

Alphas will never be simply a desperation move unless you built your mech wrong, which applies to basically all canon stock variants. If more heat penalties are added, the smart players will simply run less guns and still alpha you every time, because, unlike most things in BT, alpha strikes make sense.


There probably actually is a wait time as one of the elite mech skills reduces convergence wait time. It's not very noticeable, though.

The wait time currently just impacts how long it is before your arm and torso weapons converge. The idea is that each weapon should have convergence time and if you fire before they are all converged some shots will not go where the reticle is.

[Karl Streiger]

Kill Dozer, on 30 April 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

The counter to "alpha strike" mechs is, wait for it.......... team work.

To counter "meta" with tactics or team work is no option.

Same principle as with ECM...its so easy to counter....yes but that I need to counter a 1.5ton equipment or run my team with abnormal bad efficiency is NOT tactic.

When I'm pushing it a little bit further... your suggestion means:

I have a team really fast hovercrafts and davy crockets
yes I'm absolutly powerfull at any range - all i need is a idea where you are.
But i have no secondary armament, and not enough armor for a real fight.
But hey with a good team with light Mechs and ECM and lots of cover so that I can't see you to get near my position...so that I'm not able to nuke you.
So Davy Crockets are fine.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 30 April 2013 - 07:04 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Yokaiko, on 30 April 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

I have a 9 button mouse with macro capability, remove away, it has exactly 0 effect on my play.

Do your Macros allow you to circumvent weapon cooldowns right now?
If yes, file a bug ticket.
If not, consider that taking away the ability to alpha strike means taking away the ability to alpha strike in manner that macros work as well as ignoring the inability to alpha strike as they work to remove cooldowns.

Quote

BUT Alpha Striking is a tactic that should not be squashed. The objective of he game for me is to find he right mix of weapons that I CAN fire in a Alpha anytime I want

Well, alpha strike could be a special ability, that fires all your weapons, without convergence, and can be activated only every 10 seconds.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 April 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Well, alpha strike could be a special ability, that fires all your weapons, without convergence, and can be activated only every 10 seconds.

I would think more like every 5-6 seconds. That is 2-5 shots from non Alpha striking weapons.

[Karl Streiger]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 April 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Well, alpha strike could be a special ability, that fires all your weapons, without convergence, and can be activated only every 10 seconds.

Öhm...no.
Alpha Stirke with zero convergence could only be bought in as Module... called heroic intervention.
Is charged with 1000% heat...you fire that module...your target dies...you die.... but you die like a hero

[MaddMaxx]

Prezimonto, on 30 April 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

I'm completely mystified why this game allows perfect, automatic convergence at all ranges without even a wait time. I can't think of a single game that allows snipers to fire without a scope-in time and often scope sway. Similar concepts can be modeled into this game with a small delay on convergence for torso mounted weapons when changing range.

Well that is an easy one. Those other games do not have 5 story buildings doing the Scoping -in.

If you have to stand out in the open for any length of time, bad things will happen. That is the root cause for the influx of Pop-tarting currently. Get up shoot and back down before total devastation can be brought to bear on your self.

Moving from cover, having to scope in, when the enemy across the way can nuke your arse in 4 seconds, what Scope-in time are we talking about now?

Since we are removing stuff to solve issues. To remove the bulk of the Alpha issue now would be easy, brutal, but easy. Just remove Jump Jets.

Suddenly we are back to ground based LoS warfare again, where cover is not something only the select few can abuse.

P.S. I do not advocate for their removal btw.

[IceSerpent]

Liberator, on 30 April 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

I read so much about alpha strikes and have been the target and user myself, but is not the solution to just force chainfire?

This makes pinpoint damage so much harder to arceive and you don't need to do all these little balance fixes.

Edit 1: The fire mechanic would of course have to changed so that it would be impossible to macro-alpha.

If you force chain-fire, you end up in a situation where the less weapons you have, the more effective your config is. So, everybody would simply boat AC20s.

Quote

Edit 2: Having unsinked heat actually affect your mech in a negative manner would help prevent alpha strikes.

It would simply make it problematic to use energy weapons. Large ballistics would remain unaffected.

Quote

Edit 3: why is there no spread when firing on the move?

Spread on the move = the slower you are, the better = the more armor you have, the better = welcome to AtlasWarrior online.

[MaddMaxx]

Kill Dozer, on 30 April 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

The counter to "alpha strike" mechs is, wait for it.......... team work.

Each team should work together to overcome the primary threats on the other team, i.e. the most dangerous mech's are targeted first, by everyone that can get a cross-hair on them.

Some simple concepts that over come the "alpha":
~overlapping fields of fire
~target/fire concentration
~situational awareness
~battlefield mobility

And then there were Pug's... LOL

Good try though. Using the Team play gambit never works because some don't play a Team oriented game to be a team player. They prefer the "Rambo" style then blame all the other supposed "nubs" for their loses.

You fix that and then we are a GO!

Edited by MaddMaxx, 30 April 2013 - 07:25 AM.