100 replies to this topic

[silentD11]

MrVop, on 30 April 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

What else is there to do? You want me to run to cap? or defend our cap?
We are using the tools we have... And we only have two... one is Damage, the other is Capping. One happes to be fun, the other requires me to stand still in a box.

Actually it doesn't. When both teams are capping, defending, and checking cap routes it's a VASTLY more dynamic game than the current firing line with long range, or run to the same area and brawl it out meta that TDM players have created. You have mediums moving around the edges and moving back, lights scouting and putting pressure on the base. Nobody sits or stalls anywhere. That only happens when people slap the crap out of the stale TDM style players in the face for being too silly to defend their base. When both sides aren't trying to play TDM, you get very dynamic game play. TDM isn't dynamic, but it's beaten by just running a ******* train to through the flaws in that style gameplay in an utterly one sided face ****, largely because TDM style players often refuse to even attempt to counter it.

[Homeless Bill]

I play MechWarrior to shoot stuff. Not to stand in a box. Not to chase a light out of a box. If that's ruining the game, then so be it. I think the OP highly over-simplifies the situation and needlessly shifts the blame for poor weapon balance onto players.

There will never be perfect balance, and there will always be optimal builds. The best you can try to do as a developer is to allow for diversity of playstyles. Right now, there is none: the long game is ridiculously dominant, and snipers currently make better brawlers than actual brawler builds. There's no perfect set of numbers, but there is a set of numbers that's a hell of a lot more balanced than what we have right now.

LRMageddon was bad, and Splatcats were just as cheesy as anything else. But I had more fun before the swing towards sniping. I could play LRMs, a sniper, or a brawler and be valuable. Right now, I feel like I'm short-changing the team without PPCs.

In addition, I think your assessment is unhelpful. Either you're right, and it will never get fixed (because let's be honest, I'm never going to stand in that box); or you're wrong, and you're shifting attention away from possible solutions.

PGI will eventually get balance closer to where it should be. In the mean time, enjoy what you can.

TL;DR: Diversity of playstyles is the goal of balance - right now, there is none, and that has very little to do with the playerbase compared to weapon balance.

[Keifomofutu]

silentD11, on 30 April 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Actually it doesn't. When both teams are capping, defending, and checking cap routes it's a VASTLY more dynamic game than the current firing line with long range, or run to the same area and brawl it out meta that TDM players have created. You have mediums moving around the edges and moving back, lights scouting and putting pressure on the base. Nobody sits or stalls anywhere. That only happens when people slap the crap out of the stale TDM style players in the face for being too silly to defend their base. When both sides aren't trying to play TDM, you get very dynamic game play. TDM isn't dynamic, but it's beaten by just running a ******* train to through the flaws in that style gameplay in an utterly one sided face ****, largely because TDM style players often refuse to even attempt to counter it.

That kind of style is tied together by relatively fast mechs with a decent payload at close range. Current mediums struggle from both ends. They aren't fast or small enough to outmaneuver the assaults and they're too slow to play cap rush with the lights. It was the mediums that tied together the two forces. Now you're better off running the biggest thing possible or the fastest thing possible. And both sides hate each other.

[Braggart]

as long as mech can deal 30-60 point alphas within seconds of each other. Its not the players problem with balance.

Now figure if the entire team of 8 players has on average a 30 point alpha strike. That will result in dead mechs in seconds, which is what we have now.

The game is broken, and I am pretty sure it will be a game we all know called mech assault from here on out. PGI has made it pretty clear they arent willing to do what it actually takes to fix the game. Which is convergence. In fact, they made it perfectly clear that they want it to be the main way to play. They did that by adding armlock, which made sure that torso and arm weapons were always lined up.

I am not interested in Mechassault, and PGI will get no more money from me. PPCwarrior is a joke. To many decent games out there deserve my money more. Enjoy Call of Duty: Mechwarrior.

[MrVop]

silentD11, on 30 April 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Actually it doesn't. When both teams are capping, defending, and checking cap routes it's a VASTLY more dynamic game than the current firing line with long range, or run to the same area and brawl it out meta that TDM players have created. You have mediums moving around the edges and moving back, lights scouting and putting pressure on the base. Nobody sits or stalls anywhere. That only happens when people slap the crap out of the stale TDM style players in the face for being too silly to defend their base. When both sides aren't trying to play TDM, you get very dynamic game play. TDM isn't dynamic, but it's beaten by just running a ******* train to through the flaws in that style gameplay in an utterly one sided face ****, largely because TDM style players often refuse to even attempt to counter it.

There is no checking scout routes, you get no rewards for doing it, and its not fun because the maps are tiny for that sort of gameplay.
To me it feels like your asking for us to make up a game to play, If you give us a reason to scout with rewards and what nots. But if players do the little extra meta game you actually make less money and XP. I run cap in my lights and spot for LRM boats if I happen to drop with one, and its fun! I get no monetary reward out of it and that's not fun. Mediums stick close to asaults because if they get targeted by the other team first the high alphas can erase a mech in seconds, we've all seen it, step out around the wrong corner, boom dead.
I don't believe its fare to ask the player base to gimp itself in order to have more "fun" as the game is meant to be played. You should use mechanics in the game to let players decided those roles are worth it on their own. And curently the players have decided that those roles are not worth it.

[silentD11]

MrVop, on 30 April 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

There is no checking scout routes, you get no rewards for doing it, and its not fun because the maps are tiny for that sort of gameplay.
To me it feels like your asking for us to make up a game to play, If you give us a reason to scout with rewards and what nots. But if players do the little extra meta game you actually make less money and XP. I run cap in my lights and spot for LRM boats if I happen to drop with one, and its fun! I get no monetary reward out of it and that's not fun. Mediums stick close to asaults because if they get targeted by the other team first the high alphas can erase a mech in seconds, we've all seen it, step out around the wrong corner, boom dead.
I don't believe its fare to ask the player base to gimp itself in order to have more "fun" as the game is meant to be played. You should use mechanics in the game to let players decided those roles are worth it on their own. And curently the players have decided that those roles are not worth it.

So because you're not rewarded for something or it doesn't pad your KDR you won't do it. Great, that explains all the 8-0 matches in PUGS, people like you.

[SuomiWarder]

I see the "problem" as more one of the game modes and the terrain of the maps.

If the maps had tunnels that only mediums and light fit through, gaps only heavies and assaults could step over (and JJs of course), swampy bogs heavies could push through at full speed but light got slowed moving through, partial cover that some mechs could not see over and then actual base capture/defend games (onbe side defends the other attacks) or the current conquest mode was more like three bases along the middle that need to be continously captured for points (rather than push the counter to max and then leave) we would see more of a need for mix of mechs.

Actual escort missions would see heavies and assaults lumbering with the moving objective while lights and mediums fanned out to screen against ambush (while the enemy tried to set up LRM and PPC boats to fire on the objective at an ambush point and maybe used mediums and fast heavies to probe and try to draw of the defenders.

Right now we have essentially two very basic and brain dead game modes. Thus you get brain dead game playing where only one thing really matters. How many points of damage you can deliver. And at range, because being farther away than the enemy can reach is really the only viable defence.

[Keifomofutu]

silentD11, on 30 April 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

So because you're not rewarded for something or it doesn't pad your KDR you won't do it. Great, that explains all the 8-0 matches in PUGS, people like you.

No that would be all the dcs actually.

[MrVop]

silentD11, on 30 April 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

So because you're not rewarded for something or it doesn't pad your KDR you won't do it. Great, that explains all the 8-0 matches in PUGS, people like you.

Lets not get hostile, Its just not fun to scout, I own almost every light mech in the game, including the sucky DK. I love them, I play them as intended. which in my mind is spot, report, targets of opportunity, harasment and objectives. more or less in taht order.

Spoting: sometimes a return c-bill wise is kinda fun in rare games/situations.
Mostly useless. people more then likely go to the same spot on the map almsot every game, and if they dont the map is so tiny its trivial to guess where they went instead. (not the players fault, there is limited viable play stile available)

reporting: no return c-bill wise.
Painfull as balls with the chat system and non interactive map. Works fine on voice coms (which is how i normally play) but because spotting isnt really all that important, reporting has to follow it.

targets of oportunity: good return cbill/fun wise
Lights actually do OK here! but just ok. Find that lone atlas with LRM's or that cat with lrms or a clearly bad build assault and i'll circle poke ya and its fun and both sides get a challenge yay! BUT most fast mediums are much better and are more efficient at this. A Treb with 3LL and the fastest engine does this MUCH better in my opinion, and without much of a speed penalty.

Harasment: super risky with low c-bill return/can be tons of fun
Mediums primary job, but some lights supliment it well.

Objectives: Low Return Cbill/fun wise
Everyone can take em. most people if rushing for them can get there just a few seconds behind you, and be much more useful when they do get there.

So I dont give two ***** about my KDR or my Damage or my Epeen. I do care about the fun I have playing with my friends. And right now its starting to get stale fast. damage wins games, caps rarely do, and when they do 9 out of 10 times (in my experience atleast) its not fun for both teams.

Doing things for no reason is not a way to get the players to change the meta. USE the mechanics in the game. Otherwise lets go hop onto CS:S and pretend we're mechs and pretend we're scouting, and pretend were using different load outs.

This game needs to give me stuff to play with, not me making stuff up to play in this game.

Edited by MrVop, 30 April 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Homeless Bill, on 30 April 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

I play MechWarrior to shoot stuff. Not to stand in a box. Not to chase a light out of a box. If that's ruining the game, then so be it. I think the OP highly over-simplifies the situation and needlessly shifts the blame for poor weapon balance onto players.

There will never be perfect balance, and there will always be optimal builds. The best you can try to do as a developer is to allow for diversity of playstyles. Right now, there is none: the long game is ridiculously dominant, and snipers currently make better brawlers than actual brawler builds. There's no perfect set of numbers, but there is a set of numbers that's a hell of a lot more balanced than what we have right now.

LRMageddon was bad, and Splatcats were just as cheesy as anything else. But I had more fun before the swing towards sniping. I could play LRMs, a sniper, or a brawler and be valuable. Right now, I feel like I'm short-changing the team without PPCs.

In addition, I think your assessment is unhelpful. Either you're right, and it will never get fixed (because let's be honest, I'm never going to stand in that box); or you're wrong, and you're shifting attention away from possible solutions.

PGI will eventually get balance closer to where it should be. In the mean time, enjoy what you can.

TL;DR: Diversity of playstyles is the goal of balance - right now, there is none, and that has very little to do with the playerbase compared to weapon balance.

I feel like you're just whining.

To make you feel better, and also to try to rapidly shift the metagame, I'm going to advocate that the group I play with and everyone here that they should all start rushing to cap base. It's going to be 2 weeks of low income and complete hell, but in the end the overall metagame will be so much better.

Is this a long term solution? No. PGI needs to make the rewards for capping and killing balanced enough that the game is far more dynamic than it is and it's not just TDM with people getting super pissed off when someone uses A BUILT IN GAME MECHANIC to win the game.

[silentD11]

p4g3m4s7r, on 30 April 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

I feel like you're just whining.

To make you feel better, and also to try to rapidly shift the metagame, I'm going to advocate that the group I play with and everyone here that they should all start rushing to cap base. It's going to be 2 weeks of low income and complete hell, but in the end the overall metagame will be so much better.

Is this a long term solution? No. PGI needs to make the rewards for capping and killing balanced enough that the game is far more dynamic than it is and it's not just TDM with people getting super pissed off when someone uses A BUILT IN GAME MECHANIC to win the game.

The issue is this only works on TDM fiends. A single four man drop with their head not up their *** can usually have it beat cold turkey. We've never had a problem stopping one or stalling one out long enough to mitigate it. I've done it as a pug as well, so that also works. You just have to get over your KDR and personal score.

Edited by silentD11, 30 April 2013 - 06:29 PM.

[Homeless Bill]

p4g3m4s7r, on 30 April 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

I feel like you're just whining.

To make you feel better, and also to try to rapidly shift the metagame, I'm going to advocate that the group I play with and everyone here that they should all start rushing to cap base. It's going to be 2 weeks of low income and complete hell, but in the end the overall metagame will be so much better.

Is this a long term solution? No. PGI needs to make the rewards for capping and killing balanced enough that the game is far more dynamic than it is and it's not just TDM with people getting super pissed off when someone uses A BUILT IN GAME MECHANIC to win the game.

I'm not whining; capturing is a perfectly valid way to win in both current game modes. I hate it, but that doesn't mean other people don't dig it.

Good luck mustering the collective will to make that happen. And if you do, I'll see you gentlemen at base =D

PGI needs to do two things (besides keep iterating on weapon balance):
1. Increase objective-based awards. You Capwarriors are annoying as hell, but you really don't get the credit you deserve for what you do.
2. Give us a team deathmatch mode (my preference for implementation is here). Half of the problem is that there are a ton of homeless barbarians like me forced to play objective modes. Cappers ruin our time, and we ruin theirs. Just give us a separate playpen.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 30 April 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Homeless Bill, on 30 April 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

PGI needs to do two things (besides keep iterating on weapon balance):
1. Increase objective-based awards. You Capwarriors are annoying as hell, but you really don't get the credit you deserve for what you do.
2. Give us a team deathmatch mode (my preference for implementation is here). Half of the problem is that there are a ton of homeless barbarians like me forced to play objective modes. Cappers ruin our time, and we ruin theirs. Just give us a separate playpen.

Aww, thanks!

I see we are of one mind on this issue. Apologies for what I hope came across as mild trolling. I agree, more people need to want to cap, and the way to get it is to have it be worthwhile.

[Homeless Bill]

p4g3m4s7r, on 30 April 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

Aww, thanks!

I see we are of one mind on this issue. Apologies for what I hope came across as mild trolling. I agree, more people need to want to cap, and the way to get it is to have it be worthwhile.

I think I just had a civil interaction with someone on the forums. Did I finally drink myself to death?

I'm in total agreement. Right now, it's like they're mixing vegan protesters and KFC customers. Increasing rewards for tactical gameplay and throwing us animals in our own cage is the only way to make both crowds happy.

The only point I wanted to make in my original post was that blaming the players for the mess of alpha strikers is half wrong and half counterproductive.

[Roadbeer]

Lulz

GD alive and well.

Y'all missing what?

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

More game modes can't hurt the game... believe me.

If we add a TDM mode, those people who are playing Assault like TDM, will move on to TDM, allowing those who want to play assault properly, to do so.

The same goes for Conquest, many people have moved to Conquest to avoid the jump sniping bs... Yes it's there, but it's not nearly as bad as Assault right now.

Add in TDM, and players will move to it, and allow the other game-modes to shine with people who fall more into line with the type of thinking required for those other two game modes.

Nothing can be hurt by adding TDM, in fact, it'll get those who play with that mindset, out of the other gametypes.

[Keifomofutu]

Jade Kitsune, on 30 April 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

More game modes can't hurt the game... believe me.

If we add a TDM mode, those people who are playing Assault like TDM, will move on to TDM, allowing those who want to play assault properly, to do so.

The same goes for Conquest, many people have moved to Conquest to avoid the jump sniping bs... Yes it's there, but it's not nearly as bad as Assault right now.

Add in TDM, and players will move to it, and allow the other game-modes to shine with people who fall more into line with the type of thinking required for those other two game modes.

Nothing can be hurt by adding TDM, in fact, it'll get those who play with that mindset, out of the other gametypes.

I get the feeling detractors of TDM are worried it will be TOO popular.

[silentD11]

Keifomofutu, on 30 April 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

I get the feeling detractors of TDM are worried it will be TOO popular.

Nope, not at all. It will give me a place to just run the FOTM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

silentD11, on 30 April 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Nope, not at all. It will give me a place to just run the FOTM.

And that's fine...

Just think, FoM over in TDM, and then you don't see it nearly as much in the other game modes.

[Keifomofutu]

Neverfar, on 30 April 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

Nice assumption, and it even got a few votes of confidence in this thread, I'd agree too, if this was my first MMO.

The problem is resource allocation. You get your own little special secluded corner of the game to play in, and it will require time, coding, art direction, stability testing, and much more. From a smaller company than many of the other MMOs out there, no less.

The rhetoric about this goes that "artists only do art, and coders only do code" that is correct, actually. Problem is because you need your special "give lights and fast people and anyone who is not absolutely min-maxing the finger, and give the assault alpha boats a special no-tactics romper room", that is likely at least a few months of dedicated developer time, given the size of this company.

Expect the rest of us to sit on our thumbs until they're done building your gilded carriage?

Did you not know a feeling and an assumption are different?

And if it was popular enough it would be worth the work. Mwo always needs people and not just the "tactical" ones. As others have stated putting in a game mode for people who just want to bash robots together would probably improve the gameplay in conquest and assault by removing those who only want to kill mechs and want nothing to do with anything else.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 30 April 2013 - 08:28 PM.