46 replies to this topic

[HybridTheory]

Ok so here it is... simple way to solve the "issue" with pop tarts. Make it tougher to shoot while you jump. FFS the mech shakes when you jump in the air... shouldn't the target reticle jiggle a little too?

I've been playing this game since last June and frankly the biggest issue with it since then (other than the odd time we've had some LRM hell issues.... those of you who know KNOW ) is the pop tart snipes. You can't enter a match now and NOT find AT LEAST 4 pop tarts in game. Usually there are more. Hell I have my own too but for the same reason I made a "splat" kat... can't beat 'em... join 'em... or at least want one of my own to see what the fuss is all about. I rarely agree with any of the people who play "TT" and complain about "balance" because it simply is NOT fair or reasonable to compare a first person shooter style simulation vs a turn based strategy game (give it up guys the balance from that game doesn't convert to a game like this) but in TT there is a penalty to your accuracy if you fire whilst jumping! But I digress...

Easy fix for the pop tart is to make the target reticle jiggle whilst jumping. Period. Problem solved. I don't mean to say it should be impossible to hit a target when you jump... but since they allow a locked torso to arms system... anyone can snipe from 1000m+ with their dual PPC/Gauss 'Phract.... or tripple PPC and Gauss Highlander.

Without an adjustment to the jump and fire system... MWO becomes a game of hide/wait/snipe. Somehow I don't think it was ever meant to be this way... but that is what it is turning into...

If this seems like a response thats been posted 1000 times already I am sorry.... it's been a long night and my patience with this game is finally starting to reach an end. I get that for a very long time no one took PPC mechs because they weren't a viable option... and I get that this is STILL a beta and so on and so on... but this s*it needs attention NOW. Missiles were crazy because of splash damage... so as a "temp" fix they nerfed the damage until they were SUPPOSED to fix the splash issue but that seems to have been left in the wind... but the whole pop tart thing has yet to be addressed.... can we get someone to look at this BEFORE MWO becomes extinct the way MW:4 did?

[SmoothCriminal]

put it in the suggeestions forum.

I agree, there should be jiggle, but bigger problem is that the current meta of snipe weapons means poptarting is the most efficient way of doing so.

As such, bring back missile damage a certain extent, and maybe play with heat per weapon and that should bring back some balance.

Edited by SmoothCriminal, 06 May 2013 - 03:56 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Simplest way to end Pop taring is to disable weapons fire during Jumps.

[HybridTheory]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 May 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

Simplest way to end Pop taring is to disable weapons fire during Jumps.

Simple but totally unrealistic... you disable the ability to fire while jumping, and you remove the need for jump jets from any mech period... aside from lights trying to escape/evade... so all assault mechs with jump jets are useless (the Highlander is a prime example) Again... a jitter making targeting more difficult is likely the best solution to this problem. Until this is fixed my play time in game will be minimal and when I do play I'll take NON JJ sniper mechs... AC20 Jager... UAC5/PPC Ilya, or a random Heavy/Assault support/sniper...again NO JJ. Missiles don't need to be fixed much... but their damage should be restored to previous levels...HOWEVER all splash damage they used to cause should be removed...or reduced SIG

[pencilboom]

HybridTheory, on 06 May 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Simple but totally unrealistic... you disable the ability to fire while jumping, and you remove the need for jump jets from any mech period...

MrVop, on 28 April 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

This is MWO... where the community thinks that JJ's are for sniping only and not actually intended to improve movement abuility.

Edited by pencilboom, 06 May 2013 - 04:25 AM.

[John MatriX82]

Imho the weight of the JJs should be raised by 0.5 for each class and take away the possibility to jump snipe with few or one JJ.

Actually I'm able to do some jumpsniping on my landers with a single JJ and two of them are more than enough and 3 look to be a waste. An Highlander should barely be able to lift with a single JJ and should be able to barely do it with 3, only 4/5 jj should suffice (therefore 733C and HM would fit the task).

The same for cataphracts and catapults, 2 JJ usually are more than enough.

[Joseph Mallan]

HybridTheory, on 06 May 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Simple but totally unrealistic... you disable the ability to fire while jumping, and you remove the need for jump jets from any mech period... aside from lights trying to escape/evade... so all assault mechs with jump jets are useless (the Highlander is a prime example) Again... a jitter making targeting more difficult is likely the best solution to this problem. Until this is fixed my play time in game will be minimal and when I do play I'll take NON JJ sniper mechs... AC20 Jager... UAC5/PPC Ilya, or a random Heavy/Assault support/sniper...again NO JJ. Missiles don't need to be fixed much... but their damage should be restored to previous levels...HOWEVER all splash damage they used to cause should be removed...or reduced SIG

Unrealistic? Meditate on that. You are thrusting a building into the air. Realistically the G force should keep you pressed into your seat unable to move. Game Mechanics for TT You shot after you landed... Jump Jets are for mobility, no jump sniping. Jump over a building instead of going around it kind of stuff.

[Echo6]

Hah. I can fix poptarding easily. If you're in the air, your weapons don't fire.

[Tesfurdo]

I've never had a problem with pop tarting... and i don't even employ the tactic myself. I also can't envisage why SO many people have a problem with it. Is it the joystick crew being so vocal?

[mike29tw]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 May 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

Unrealistic? Meditate on that. You are thrusting a building into the air. Realistically the G force should keep you pressed into your seat unable to move. Game Mechanics for TT You shot after you landed... Jump Jets are for mobility, no jump sniping. Jump over a building instead of going around it kind of stuff.

Except that's not how G force works. It doesn't matter if you're thrusting a building or a remote drone, only the acceleration has to do with the G force you experience, not the mass of the object you're propelling.

And judging by how slow mechs' jump, you won't experience much more force than a roller coaster ride, and I'm pretty sure I can move my finger to pull a trigger while doing it.

Edited by mike29tw, 06 May 2013 - 05:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

mike29tw, on 06 May 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Except that's not how G force works. It doesn't matter if you're thrusting a building or a remote drone, only the acceleration has to do with the G force you experience, not the mass of the object you're propelling.

And judging by how slow mechs' jump, you won't experience much more force than a roller coaster ride, and I'm pretty sure I can move my finger to pull a trigger while doing it.

Then if you don't think Gs will be the issue Shack would be.This isn't a smooth lift like riding a roller coaster this is rocket lifting off (even if Gs are low).

[mike29tw]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 May 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

Then if you don't think Gs will be the issue Shack would be.This isn't a smooth lift like riding a roller coaster this is rocket lifting off (even if Gs are low).

The difference being rocket lifts at an acceleration that aims to reach escape velocity, while JJ only lifts you for a couple of seconds.

This is not how you nerf poptarts.

Edit - actually your suggestion doesn't nerf poptarts. It eliminates all possible poptarts. Jump sniper is a legitimate playstyle. The only problem is it's a too effective with little risk and effort. That is what needs fixing here.

Edited by mike29tw, 06 May 2013 - 05:40 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

It would be perfect for nerfing Poptarts. Shooting while in the air is not something Mechs do in this universe. That is for LAMs and Aerospace.

[Kitane]

In order of increased "nerf" factor when in the air:

1) Disable zoom
2) Slow down/turn off weapon convergence
3) Add forced wide FOV, wider than the default view.

No randomness introduced, sniping would be possible but more difficult, especially precision shots.

[zraven7]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 May 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

Simplest way to end Pop taring is to disable weapons fire during Jumps.

This is simply unrealistic for a real-time game. For turn based, yes, it made sense as a balance point, but I'm slowly, painfully, learning that TT is it's own beast. Considering the mass behind these platforms, there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to fire while jumping. As far as the shock and G-force issues, if a guy piloting an F-18 through turbulence can shoot, a robot slowly jetting 50 or 60 meters into the air can shoot.

They need to make LRMs fearsome again. Proper indirect fire would be a perfect counterpoint to jump-sniping, forcing them to stop with the pogo-PPC and to look for the light that is spotting them. Otherwise, they would either have to scramble for cover, or attempt to rush the LRM launcher.

[Joseph Mallan]

zraven7, on 06 May 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

As far as the shock and G-force issues, if a guy piloting an F-18 through turbulence can shoot, a robot slowly jetting 50 or 60 meters into the air can shoot.

Could a F-18 pilot do it from say take off? Where most of his concentration is required to keep the jet from crashing into the ground? Right now Pop Tars are not being penalized for basically dropping the equivalent height of 3 stories or more in free fall. Falling is supposed to damage your Mech with the damage increasing with the distance you fall.

[zraven7]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 May 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Could a F-18 pilot do it from say take off? Where most of his concentration is required to keep the jet from crashing into the ground? Right now Pop Tars are not being penalized for basically dropping the equivalent height of 3 stories or more in free fall. Falling is supposed to damage your Mech with the damage increasing with the distance you fall.

And it does cause leg damage. And if they decided to increase fall damage based on height and weight (leave lights alone below 10 meters, though. our legs already get damages when we kick a lego), I'd be for that. That would require them to save more of the boost for landing. I already save about a quarter to a half of my jenner's jets for landing, just to avoid leg damage.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thanks. I don't pop tart and I haven't used Jets enough to know the full extent of damage. But from the jumping I have done, there just isn't enough shake during lift off for my taste.

[Shadowsword8]

zraven7, on 06 May 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

This is simply unrealistic for a real-time game. For turn based, yes, it made sense as a balance point, but I'm slowly, painfully, learning that TT is it's own beast. Considering the mass behind these platforms, there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to fire while jumping. As far as the shock and G-force issues, if a guy piloting an F-18 through turbulence can shoot, a robot slowly jetting 50 or 60 meters into the air can shoot.

If you want to bring realism, firing an AC20 while in the air would cause your mech to violently drift backward, while spinning on itself (guns are on the side), and you would land on your butt or your stomach. It would be perfectly logical for mech designers to prevent such a scenario by adding a safety on the mech by preventing weapons from firing without a stable position.

Let's keep realism out of it.The fact is that poptarting is more efficient, but less fun for everyone, and fun is the one thing that will keep the game alive, so it need to be nerfed back to the point where it is the exception, not the norm.

Quote

They need to make LRMs fearsome again. Proper indirect fire would be a perfect counterpoint to jump-sniping, forcing them to stop with the pogo-PPC and to look for the light that is spotting them. Otherwise, they would either have to scramble for cover, or attempt to rush the LRM launcher.

It would be ineffective. Start jumping while behind a tall cover, by the time you're locked you've already shot. And you'll be back on the ground behind cover by the time the LRM reach your position.

[zraven7]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 May 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Thanks. I don't pop tart and I haven't used Jets enough to know the full extent of damage. But from the jumping I have done, there just isn't enough shake during lift off for my taste.

Ok, this is a Canon, explanation, so I know it doesn't necessarily have pertinence to the game. A large portion of the "shake" would be eliminated through the pilot's neurohelmet connection. The purpose of the neourohelmet was to allow the pilots equilibrium to essentially act as a baseline for the mechs gyros and body movements, providing balance. It also synched up the pilots sense of balance with the mechs, partially eliminating disorientation from the movements of the mech itself. This would include Jump Jets, especially since they were the primary means of drop-ship deployment for mechs equipped with them. Essentially, it is like how your eyes "don't see" your nose. The shake is there, but with the help of the neurohelmet link, it's just like it wasn't.

Again, i know this has no weight on game balance, but it may give some insight as to why it was programmed that way.

As far as drop damage, it's relatively low right now. I do feel it should be increased based on tonnage of the mech. I think it's about right for lights regarding falls up to about 20 meters, but shoudl probably be increased past that. Oddly, larger mechs actually seem to take less damage. Maybe this is due to stronger leg actuators or more distribution of mass due to larger feet. I feel damage from falls should be increased on larger mechs, but if it isn't, I'd sure like an explanation as to why.