85 replies to this topic

[Ralgas]

Keifomofutu, on 08 May 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

Forgot about the fact that mg's don't pick out a single part of a torso. They spray the whole mech and only from point blank range. AC20 jager would win that fight every time. Also because you are using the mgs you can't torso twist to defend yourself and still maintain DAT DPS.

Honestly you could use your exact argument above to declare that the 4x AC2 Jager is the new brawling king because it has 16 dps. But we all know it never plays out like that.

Consider though the mg mech saves-
15+ crit slots
No heat generated
Over 1/3 of the mechs weight

That makes the senario a whole new ball game

[MustrumRidcully]

Mr 144, on 07 May 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

1.2 DPS....

....let's build around the most 'beasty' MG boat in-game....

Jager-DD
std 275 (75.4kph)
Endo
2xERPPC
17 DHS
6xMGs
4 tons ammo (tweak as needed if ammo is changed)

The ERPPCs alone do 6.67 DPS....16.53 seconds to shut-down.
The 6xMGs (at 1.2) do 7.2 DPS completely heat free.

Now let's Brawl with an AC/40 Jager....

AC/40...
0 sec = 40
4 sec = 80 (not enough to kill a std. engine Jager)
8 sec = 120

MG -DD
0 sec = 20
3 sec = 40 (+21.6 MG) = 61.6
6 sec = 60 (+43.2 MG) = 103.2 (enough to kill an XL'd Jager via ST at ~%35 MG shots landed on ST)
9 sec = 80 (+64.8 MG) = 140.8

Machine Gun Monster...the Brawling King if they buff 'em all the way to 1.2 dps....

Mr 144

I think this would be a pretty good point for the Machine Gun to be, assuming the hit rate is not too high or too low.

At least my AC/40 Jagermech also has 2 Medium Lasers, so you might underrate the damage output of the AC/40 a bit. Also, the MG still has lower range than the AC/20 and ML, but the ER PPCs have obviously a much higher range, so it might matter where the engagement starts and where the majority of the action happens.

[Mr 144]

Ralgas, on 08 May 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

Consider though the mg mech saves-
15+ crit slots
No heat generated
Over 1/3 of the mechs weight

That makes the senario a whole new ball game

Don't forget running a standard engine at the same kph as the XL'd Jagers

MustrumRidcully, on 08 May 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

I think this would be a pretty good point for the Machine Gun to be, assuming the hit rate is not too high or too low.

At least my AC/40 Jagermech also has 2 Medium Lasers, so you might underrate the damage output of the AC/40 a bit. Also, the MG still has lower range than the AC/20 and ML, but the ER PPCs have obviously a much higher range, so it might matter where the engagement starts and where the majority of the action happens.

And those kinds of intrinsics is why I said skill and range is moot. When discussing balance based off numbers, you have to throw those conditions out, as it's the players responsibility to gain tactical advantage. The sole point, is the AC/40 would no longer have that tactical advantage at very close range brawls.

And adding 2xMLs makes the 6 second mark a complete coin-flip scenario btw...still using ~35% MG figures.


Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 08 May 2013 - 01:04 AM.

[Ralgas]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 May 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

I think this would be a pretty good point for the Machine Gun to be, assuming the hit rate is not too high or too low.

At least my AC/40 Jagermech also has 2 Medium Lasers, so you might underrate the damage output of the AC/40 a bit. Also, the MG still has lower range than the AC/20 and ML, but the ER PPCs have obviously a much higher range, so it might matter where the engagement starts and where the majority of the action happens.

Theres the downside i see though, most of you ac/40 crew are sneeky gits as is, add 2 er's and enough dhs to ignore the heat for 5 rounds from themand until you hit organised drops you almost have the new a1

[Mr 144]

Ralgas, on 08 May 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

Theres the downside i see though, most of you ac/40 crew are sneeky gits as is, add 2 er's and enough dhs to ignore the heat for 5 rounds from themand until you hit organised drops you almost have the new a1

With the (now relevant with the dps) crit seeking ability of 6xMGs...the firepower and DPS to crack the shell...the speed...the armor...and the survivability of a std engine...I agree...

Mr 144

Edit: and fyi....160 (8 ppc volley w/ both coolshots) + ~150 MG = 310 damage in 21 seconds...never shutdown...AND then maintain 7.2 DPS heat-free while the PPCs are on cooldown. This would be a sustained dps number in smurfy's of over 10dps....most builds are around 4-5dps as it factors heat.

Edited by Mr 144, 08 May 2013 - 01:17 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Mr 144, on 08 May 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

Don't forget running a standard engine at the same kph as the XL'd Jagers



And those kinds of intrinsics is why I said skill and range is moot. When discussing balance based off numbers, you have to throw those conditions out, as it's the players responsibility to gain tactical advantage. The sole point, is the AC/40 would no longer have that tactical advantage at very close range brawls.

But isn't that how it should be? The lower the range of a weapon, the more efficient it needs to be to be worth it. If you can get 17 DPS at 500m range for 15 tons and 13 heat sinks, and 17 DPS at 120m range for 15 tons and 13 heat sinks, you would otherwise always take the longer range option.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 May 2013 - 01:18 AM.

[CJDodo]

Going by the DPS stats on Smurfy's, 2 MGs (which any mech that would use them over larger ballistics usually has at least 2 hardpoints) with a ton of ammo will do the same DPS (1.6) as a MPL at the same overall weight, albeit at 3 crit slots rather than 1. Both currently have about the same range, the MGs produce no heat like the MPL, but have to be held on target as a trade off.

I wouldn't want to rain on anyone's speculation parade before it's in game to test, but there's a chance that 0.8 DPS per gun may be balanced.

Edited by CJDodo, 08 May 2013 - 01:29 AM.

[Ralgas]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 May 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

But isn't that how it should be? The lower the range of a weapon, the more efficient it needs to be to be worth it. If you can get 17 DPS at 500m range for 15 tons and 13 heat sinks, and 17 DPS at 120m range for 15 tons and 13 heat sinks, you would otherwise always take the longer range option.

And @1.2 dps the mg would be the most efficent option, especially once you start grouping them. Depending on who was right earlier (i'll admit i only tested my actual mg rof in thr test grounds so i may be out live) but i estimate that if i'm right 6mg will still output higher than a med las but have no heat or cd till ammo runs out, of which 3tons would give nearly half a match continously

[shabowie]

Dual Gauss quad mg jagermech would be one of the best mechs in the game if MG did 1.2 DPS.

The thing with MGs is they will be hard to make good enough to be good without being overpowered. Game mechanics, low weight, no heat.

Baby stepping up to .8 DPS is a good start.

Edited by shabowie, 08 May 2013 - 01:50 AM.

[Ralgas]

shabowie, on 08 May 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

Dual Gauss quad mg jagermech would be one of the best mechs in the game if MG did 1.2 DPS.

The thing with MGs is they will be hard to make good enough to be good without being overpowered. Game mechanics, low weight, no heat.

Baby stepping up to .8 DPS is a good start.

Efficient for sure but i'd still suggest the hexa mg 2Erppcs to give extra weight for armor/engine

[jeffsw6]

Ralgas, on 07 May 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

My testing suggested around 9 o.0

I wonder why we are getting different numbers. I have only measured in the Testing Ground and I get 6.9 rounds/sec per MG every time. My ping is generally 40. Any thoughts?

Dude42, on 07 May 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

Machine gun bullets(0.8) do more damage than long range missiles(0.7). Sounds right to me.

You mean TEN MG bullets do 0.8 if the rate-of-fire was correct and if all the shots landed on the target, which means you've got to be closer than 90m even vs an Atlas.

Stargoat, on 07 May 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Interestingly, MGs will now have greater damage potential/tonne than LRMs.

Do you know what weapons have greater DPS/ton than LRMs? Every energy-weapon, most ballistics, and all SRMs.

[Roland]

I always laugh at folks who suggest that MG's could be overpowered at 1.2 dps.

Because a 90m ranged weapon that requires being held constantly on target is useful, right? OH WAIT, NO IT'S NOT.

Folks do things like calculate DPS, seemingly without understanding how irrelevant that is to the actual gameplay.

Quote

AC/40...
0 sec = 40
4 sec = 80 (not enough to kill a std. engine Jager)
8 sec = 120
MG -DD
0 sec = 20
3 sec = 40 (+21.6 MG) = 61.6
6 sec = 60 (+43.2 MG) = 103.2 (enough to kill an XL'd Jager via ST at ~%35 MG shots landed on ST)
9 sec = 80 (+64.8 MG) = 140.8

Case in point.
Those numbers for the DD? They're gonna be spread all over the place. They aren't gonna kill anything, because they won't be focused.

Meanwhile, the AC40 Jager is gonna dump all that damage directly into a single location and kill you.

(also, if you are only running 2 AC20's on a Jagermech, then you are doing it wrong)

[A banana in the tailpipe]

MGs need a buff badly. I thought this was the patch that buffed them, went to go test and even 20+ seconds behind an overheating cat WITH dual SLs to help and iddn't scratch the paint with dual MGs.

Flamers need some love next please.

[Joseph Mallan]

hashinshin, on 07 May 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Buff them to 1.2 DPS. Please don't give them a token buff that's just going to be ignored. Give them a buff that will actually make them GOOD.

Fortheloveofthisgame.

Really? Buffing the weakest weapon in the game(for 30 years) to being somewhat useful will save the game? Really?

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 May 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

Really? Buffing the weakest weapon in the game(for 30 years) to being somewhat useful will save the game? Really?

The game isn't in trouble.

The hardcores are just bored and do not think this change to the meta will make things more intresting.

There is a HUGE difference.

[Mechteric]

lets wait and see how it is at double the damage it is now. It might actually be worthwhile equipping a pair of these with 1 ton of ammo as a backup weapon against internals. Remember, the reason they aren't going to make them do much more damage is because they build up zero heat, in otherwords they can fire forever (especially since they have so much ammo per ton). They are balancing against that notion.

[Roland]

CapperDeluxe, on 08 May 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

lets wait and see how it is at double the damage it is now. It might actually be worthwhile equipping a pair of these with 1 ton of ammo as a backup weapon against internals. Remember, the reason they aren't going to make them do much more damage is because they build up zero heat, in otherwords they can fire forever (especially since they have so much ammo per ton). They are balancing against that notion.

Being able to "fire forever" isn't actually a benefit. Folks don't seem to grasp that.

It just means that you need to hold down the trigger constantly, and keep the reticle exactly on target constantly, in order to do the listed damage.

[Joseph Mallan]

Its why I keep suggesting a burst similar to a laser's beam duration Roland. Make the MG more like other weapons. a burst of damage, cool down, burst of damage, cool down.

Making it fire as it has been is not normal.

lockwoodx, on 08 May 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

The game isn't in trouble.

The hardcores are just bored and do not think this change to the meta will make things more intresting.

There is a HUGE difference.

I consider myself a fringe hard core player. I have used MGs 3-5 times in almost 30 years playing... MGs need a little help that's all.

[General Taskeen]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 May 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

Its why I keep suggesting a burst similar to a laser's beam duration Roland. Make the MG more like other weapons. a burst of damage, cool down, burst of damage, cool down.

Making it fire as it has been is not normal.


I consider myself a fringe hard core player. I have used MGs 3-5 times in almost 30 years playing... MGs need a little help that's all.

Well the lead designer who decided on the MG likes their constant stream boolets for some reason. They are hell bent on keeping the MW:LL-like Machine Gun probably because they think it seems "cool." There is at least one known Dev who is a fan of MW3, and of course the MG was not a stream of bullets in that game, but they may not have sway to reverse the design decision.

It needs a serious overhaul of its programmed functionality. I have been saying from the beginning that the Devs need to make the MG into a cool down weapon, and not a stream. Likewise for the Flamer... but, since we're discussing the MG. I have posted over and over, for the Devs to see the MW3 stats of the MG and how they could adopt something "similar" (as a 'cooldown' ballistic) that works in MWO, but not a straight copy.

Edited by General Taskeen, 08 May 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[Mr 144]

Roland, on 08 May 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

I always laugh at folks who suggest that MG's could be overpowered at 1.2 dps.

Because a 90m ranged weapon that requires being held constantly on target is useful, right? OH WAIT, NO IT'S NOT.

Folks do things like calculate DPS, seemingly without understanding how irrelevant that is to the actual gameplay.

Case in point.
Those numbers for the DD? They're gonna be spread all over the place. They aren't gonna kill anything, because they won't be focused.

Meanwhile, the AC40 Jager is gonna dump all that damage directly into a single location and kill you.

(also, if you are only running 2 AC20's on a Jagermech, then you are doing it wrong)

See, and that's what you're refusing to grasp. The DD build CAN just run up face-hug, take everything the AC/40 build can dish out (to a single location yet), spray all over the place, and STILL win that fight. Math doesn't lie. There's no fancy tactics, just face hug, aim for ST and spam. It will win that every single time and only requires 35% of the MG shots to land on location target...easy at face-hugging range.

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 08 May 2013 - 06:08 AM.