464 replies to this topic

[Just wanna play]

Hayashi, on 28 May 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

The Cataphract 4X, .... deserve a tier 4 of their own given how bad they are.

4x is epic brawler and in some cases far better then jager for ballistics because one, when compared to jagers, it has arms and not sideways turrets, and in the case of brawling, has great cockpit viewing angles (as do all phracts) and mounts a decent amount of ballistics, arguably one of the best all around types of weapons for brawling, and again, ballistics on the arms, not the torso, so it has pretty **** good aim with them

and it also has the 5 ton advantage which makes quite a big difference on bigger mechs, so STOP HATING!

Edited by Just wanna play, 28 May 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[Just wanna play]

MavRCK, on 28 May 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

So zraven7, just wanna play... for all you guys who can't be bothered to watch a video and post an informed response

did watch the video, hence me advising to not listen the guy making post about how a noob can properly bandwagon............

[neviu]

The fail is massive in this one. Massive it is.

Your mouth proceeds your skill,
And my grammar is awesome.

Ive got a rainbow mech, does that makes me bad??
Mr awesome pilot.

If i run 6 ppcs on a raven will i fly up in the sky?
And hit the planet kaos?

Edited by neviu, 28 May 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[Psikez]

MavRCK, on 12 May 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Not placed - UAV - this is extremely interesting and I'm holding off ranking it. It might be hugely important or not at all in tournament play as good teams often don't rely on radar when brawling as much as good team communication. Being able to target under ECM is useful, but how much, how so outside of pugging..

I can see an advantage with this if brawling many of the same chassis under ECM shroud to assist in target calling although it would be something to take after more useful modules for your chassis are taken. Personally I'd stick it right after capture assist

[Carnesy]

Hayashi, on 28 May 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

The Cataphract 4X, Spider K and Awesome-PB deserve a tier 4 of their own given how bad they are.

Are you really having that bad of a time with the Cataphract 4x? What do you run on it? I run mine with quad AC5's with nine tons of ammo and the max xl engine and wreck lots o face. It's sluggish but has pretty epic range and lots of armor to make up for it's low speed. My dps is also pretty good as I can put out the equivalent of an AC 20 almost every second when alpha firing. I run 3 fire groups: group one fires the left arm, group two fire the right and group three chain fires all four. Doing this setup even with an xl engine I can lay waste to my enemies. For my playtime in it, it is by far my best performing mech and is a joy to pilot. Hell I've out gunned tri UAC5 Muromets plenty of times without really sustaining much damage considering what I do to them. Also because it's running all ballistics once you step up to Double Heat Sinks heat is never an issue leaving me all three (two standard and one mastered) module slots to play with.

If you still have your Cata 4x rusting away in your hanger, drag it out and give that build a try. I know xl engines on big mechs and ammo limited builds are unconventional but all I can say is play around with your loadouts, you never know what gems you might find.

Edited by Carnesy, 28 May 2013 - 03:06 PM.

[Psikez]

Carnesy, on 28 May 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Are you really having that bad of a time with the Cataphract 4x? What do you run on it? I run mine with quad AC5's with nine tons of ammo and the max xl engine and wreck lots o face. It's sluggish but has pretty epic range and lots of armor to make up for it's low speed. My dps is also pretty good as I can put out the equivalent of an AC 20 almost every second when alpha firing. I run 3 fire groups: group one fires the left arm, group two fire the right and group three chain fires all four. doing this setup even with an xl engine I can lay waste to my enemies. For my playtime in it, it is by far my best performing mech and is a joy to pilot. Hell I've out gunned tri UAC5 Muromets plenty of times without really sustaining much damage considering what I do to them.

If you still have your Cata 4x rusting away in your hanger, drag it out and give that build a try. I know xl engines on big mechs ammo limited builds are unconventional but all I can say play around with your loadouts, you never know what you might find.

I love my 4x and run it much the same is you; however, in these community leagues it gets ripped apart by the range builds our outmaneuvered in the brawl.

We utilized one in the proxis league on our pirate group, though proxis lead to a lot of people running unconventional builds and drop decks which was very nice

[Carnesy]

Psikez, on 28 May 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

I love my 4x and run it much the same is you; however, in these community leagues it gets ripped apart by the range builds our outmaneuvered in the brawl.

We utilized one in the proxis league on our pirate group, though proxis lead to a lot of people running unconventional builds and drop decks which was very nice

I've never played in 8 man "league" matches before but dropping 8 mans in my Team speak group has posed no real issues for me. I admit that it handles like a cow in a shopping cart on skates but as long as you can keep some cover close by and/or have teammates near by for support it's been perfectly viable and an absolute blast to roll in. Heck I've even killed off quite a few ravens and other lights that tried to death spiral me both alone and in pairs.

Edited by Carnesy, 28 May 2013 - 03:15 PM.

[Psikez]

Carnesy, on 28 May 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

I've never played in 8 man "league" matches before but dropping 8 mans in my Team speak group has posed no real issues for me. I admit that it handles like a cow in a shopping cart on skates but as long as you can keep some cover close by and/or have teammates near by for support it's been perfectly viable and an absolute blast to roll in. Heck I've even killed off quite a few ravens and other lights that tried to death spiral me both alone and in pairs.

Trust me I know, the 4X with 4AC5s puts out the highest sustained DPS in the game, slamming people with 20 damage every 1.5s is no joke at all; however in these league run matches it just gets tore up at 800 meters by the jump jetting PPC/Gauss that dominates most of the matches these days.

Not many teams will give you the opportunity to bring that firepower to bear, the side torso and XL will get ripped out before you can say

I remember the first time I came across a 4X with one of my atlases (long before they got the recent refire buff and ppc dominance) ripped me apart. I bought a 4X right after that match . I will gladly take one in a drop deck over an ultrametz but I'd still rather have a 3D with 2 ER PPC, gauss, and JJs over either for one of these community run tournament matches

[Psikez]

I'm sorry I couldn't resist

Edited by Psikez, 28 May 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[Stoicblitzer]

Just wanna play, on 27 May 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

are you really hopping for a patch to be able to brawl?? if your good you can brawl now, if you arent able to brawl effectively now go learn how to play, im fine with out many people brawling these days because it makes being a brawler that much more useful, what would you rather have on your team flanking the enemy, a sniper or a brawler??

even when you do somehow get into brawling range with 0 dmg received, SRMs suck and don't reg. l2p

[shabowie]

What's the logic in placing the K2 above the JM6? I think the JM6 is the better dual AC20 platform than the K2 because of speed with an XL and the guns being in the arms. The dual AC Cat is one slow pig or has pencil legs and easily headshot like all Cats, the JM6 obviously has the XL weakness, but that's about it. Just curious, I don't do many 8 mans, so I'd like to hear the reasoning.

If that's answered in the video apologies, I didn't see it yet.

Edited by shabowie, 28 May 2013 - 04:44 PM.

[Just wanna play]

Psikez, on 28 May 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Trust me I know, the 4X with 4AC5s puts out the highest sustained DPS in the game, slamming people with 20 damage every 1.5s is no joke at all; however in these league run matches it just gets tore up at 800 meters by the jump jetting PPC/Gauss that dominates most of the matches these days.

Not many teams will give you the opportunity to bring that firepower to bear, the side torso and XL will get ripped out before you can say

I remember the first time I came across a 4X with one of my atlases (long before they got the recent refire buff and ppc dominance) ripped me apart. I bought a 4X right after that match . I will gladly take one in a drop deck over an ultrametz but I'd still rather have a 3D with 2 ER PPC, gauss, and JJs over either for one of these community run tournament matches

well i dont run 4 ac5s mines a brawler with 2 ac10s 2 mediums and srm4, all of my phracts have 255 engines (ran 2x and 4x as well as 1x) and they might be slow to others but when you support an atlas or highlander it creates some amazing opportunities, and you dont have to worry about being out sniped because sniping is not what the build is about

also can certainly hold its own against faster mechs, just harder to use because its slow but when i play with my friends they notice you got to maneuver it like an assault thinking strategically about where you want to be when the *** hits the fann, and i do exactly that

[Just wanna play]

Stoicblitzer, on 28 May 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

even when you do somehow get into brawling range with 0 dmg received, SRMs suck and don't reg. l2p

and if you rely on having srms to be able to brawl thats probably part of the reason you cant seem to be able to brawl.......

and i must strongly disagree aside from the occasional hitting something smack dab in the chest but no dmg what so ever moments due to lack of hsr, regular srms are awesome and i have yet to use streaks and im proud of it (don' judge)
i have lower ping then most so i probably get a better experience with them you do though
the day missiles get hsr

shabowie, on 28 May 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

What's the logic in placing the K2 above the JM6? I think the JM6 is the better dual AC20 platform than the K2 because of speed with an XL and the guns being in the arms. The dual AC Cat is one slow pig or has pencil legs and easily headshot like all Cats, the JM6 obviously has the XL weakness, but that's about it. Just curious, I don't do many 8 mans, so I'd like to hear the reasoning.

If that's answered in the video apologies, I didn't see it yet.

so whats better at carrying 2 ac20s is the determining factor of whats better???
sorry but i must point out he must have used more then just that to determine whats better, sure i might not agree with the list but you are being far to meta game minded imo

Edited by Just wanna play, 28 May 2013 - 05:02 PM.

[shabowie]

Just wanna play, on 28 May 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

so whats better at carrying 2 ac20s is the determining factor of whats better???

I was actually trying to just talk about dual big ballistics. 4 LL or PPC can be done by just about anything now.

[Just wanna play]

shabowie, on 28 May 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

I was actually trying to just talk about dual big ballistics. 4 LL or PPC can be done by just about anything now.

but there are sooooo many different characteristics of every mech its hard to say which is better, but just because it can do it doesn't mean it can do it well
so you really shouldnt just assume ballistics "in general " are the determining factor in that case
catapult k2 can aim energy weapons better then jager, jager can aim ballistics better then catapult can

Edited by Just wanna play, 28 May 2013 - 05:51 PM.

[shabowie]

Just wanna play, on 28 May 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

but there are sooooo many different characteristics of every mech its hard to say which is better

Again, I was asking about a specific comparison for a reason. I was also asking the OP for his reasoning, not you for yours.

[WaddeHaddeDudeda]

beard0fzeus, on 28 May 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

I am a new player (just started this week), and I did not look at any forums before cashing in all my cadet bonus on my first and still only mech...an AWESOME AWS-8t (sad trombone).

RTFM!
(Click at the link below my signature and have a read!)

shabowie, on 28 May 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

Again, I was asking about a specific comparison for a reason. I was also asking the OP for his reasoning, not you for yours.

I'm not the OP but I can assure you that the "XL weakness" of the Jager is actually a good enough reason to not use it in serious 8's. The side torsos are super paper thin.
If you'd be about to slap in a STD engine into it, the K2 could do better (minus the arm mounted weapons) since it doesn't needs to spend armour on the arms. Therefore you can squeeze in an even bigger STD engine.
Lastly profilwise it seems to be a little bit easier to protect opened sections of the K2 than the Jager which means it seems to me more durable, except if aiming for the head.

[Psikez]

WaddeHaddeDudeda, on 28 May 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

RTFM!
(Click at the link below my signature and have a read!)


I'm not the OP but I can assure you that the "XL weakness" of the Jager is actually a good enough reason to not use it in serious 8's. The side torsos are super paper thin.
If you'd be about to slap in a STD engine into it, the K2 could do better (minus the arm mounted weapons) since it doesn't needs to spend armour on the arms. Therefore you can squeeze in an even bigger STD engine.
Lastly profilwise it seems to be a little bit easier to protect opened sections of the K2 than the Jager which means it seems to me more durable, except if aiming for the head.

Agreed. Jager side torsos are not difficult to hit at all given the mechs torso is a giant square.

[Wildstreak]

MavRCK, on 16 May 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

5) Let's help new players learn this game quickly and identify the mechs most ideal to learn the game with and invest their hard-earned money and time into.

This is why a tier list doesn't work.

Different people have different playstyles.
Some like Ballistic, some Energy, others Missiles, still others some combination of the three.
Some players like to move fast, others slow.
Some players love to brawl, others snipe, still others support though weapons, intelligence or command.

Better to do a list describing what each Mech variant is best suited for.
Want lots of lasers? Pick one of these (insert Mechs using a lot of Energy).
Like fast movers? Try one of these (insert fast Mechs).
Want to take command? Here are some of the better Mechs to Command with (insert Mechs a Commander can use best without harming the team's ability to function).

[MavRCK]

shabowie, on 28 May 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

I was actually trying to just talk about dual big ballistics. 4 LL or PPC can be done by just about anything now.

This is an interesting and important question...

So let's look at it and break it down.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/
Name Damage Heat Cooldown Range Max Range Slots Tons Speed Duration DPS HPS EHS Impulse Health
AC/20 20.00 6.00 4.00 270 810 10 14.0 900 7 5.00 1.50 15 0.10
18.00

LARGE LASER 9.00 7.00 3.25 450 900 2 5.0 - 1.00 2.12 1.65 17 -
10.00
PPC 10.00 8.00 4.00 90 - 540 1,080 3 7.0 2,000 - 2.50 2.00 20 0.030 10.00

2 AC20 - 40 dmg alpha - 4s cooldown - hits a target component for 20 dmg x 2 - 12 heat - Range 270 - 810 (realistically up to 500 meters) - 28 tons - 2 x 10 crit slots PLUS AMMUNITION DPS 5x2

4 LL - 36 alpha - 3.25s cooldown - does dmg over time to a target component x 4 - 28 heat - Range up to 800 meters - 20 tons 4 x 2 crit slots - DPS 2.12 x 4

4 PPC - 40 alpha, 4 sec cooldown - 10 dmg component x 2 - 32 heat - Range 90 to 1000 meters - 20 tons - 4 x 3 crit slots
- DPS 2.50 x 4

So here's the thing about Dual AC20s -- obviously, only really big mechs can afford the weight and still move at a decent speed. The DPS as you can see is very similar between 2AC20 and 4PPC, and still close to the 4LL.

What's the difference?

It's the details..

1) Range
2) Ability to crit a component in 1 shot
3) Requiring ammunition
4) Requiring heatsinks
5) Space

1-2 are kind of obvious but let's look at points 3-5...

One must find the right balance of amount of ammunition versus making yourself vulnerable. Too much ammunition not used during a fight can be a live grenade waiting to happen - ammo explosion of 1000 dmg is no joke!

One should think of heat and heatsinks as a resource like ammunition.. even if you can fire your lasers or ppcs every 3-4 seconds, heat buildup and then heat dissipation won't allow you to.

Space is of course a limiting factor into having the weapons you desire.. but also... is a vulnerability. Big weapons like the AC20, while having 18 hitpoints, is easily hit when your armor is stripped and very easy to become disabled. It's an important tactic!

Looking at points 3-5 it's easier now to see the advantages and disadvantages of builds like dual ac20 or 4 LL or 4 ppc...

Dual AC20 needs a lot of space, weight and ammunition... you have limited range... you can be disabled easily if the opposing team / enemy knows where your AC20s are!

4LL requires less space, no ammunition, has impressive range, but can't take out a component in 1 shot... it is damage over time so you need to expose yourself longer to use it... but has the benefits of being adjusted so as to hit more difficult targets... but it needs extra heatinks to deal with its heat...

4PPC is kind of in between both the AC20 / LL -- space, range, crit ability -- but it has a lot more heat than AC20 / LL -- so is even more heatsink dependent...

There's always a trade-off...big engines weigh more... but you move faster and can evade fire easier... smaller engines weigh less, but you move slower and are an easier target...

Plus that extra weight and space... even if you add some extra double heatinks.. you likely have room for 1-3 SRMs or Streak SRMs... or some type of equipment... ECM / BAP / jump jets... and now suddenly your mech is a bit more multi-dimensional and much more difficult to deal with...

I always say to myself... what is this mech designed to do.. where is it strong.. where is it limited.. What does this mech bring to my team that another mech already does, does better or simply cannot do.

This is why some builds in specific mechs sound great... like the dual ac 20 JM6.. but in practice, especially in competition, where teams can adjust and deal with a specific threat more easily, these mechs aren't as competitive... Teams will find a way to use your weakness against you... And the best mechs such as the DDC can counter their weakness such as range with an ability such as ECM! which allows you to get in range!

I hope this also shows why I try to make a distinction between competitive 8 man tier list and solo queue tier list... I'm biased in favour of the competitive tier list... I think many of those tier 1 mechs really do great in solo queue...

But please understand everyone... it's easy to point out the best... it's the middle of the road and the lower ranked mechs that are the hardest to rank... and these mechs especially are controversial.

I hope this exercise helps!

MWO smurfy and all the guys (Widowmakers, Ohmwrecker, Goons) who made mech labs for us have done us an INCREDIBLE favour.. thank you.. thank you.. thank you.. I cannot say thank you enough because this has allowed us to theorycraft and see the different mech's strengths and weaknesses quickly and without having to test in game. Many builds and mechs can be compared to each other and their mathematical stastics are already there! Take into account hundreds of hours of experience and I hope it's obvious why the strengths and weaknesses of mechs can be seen and appreciated.

Edited by MavRCK, 29 May 2013 - 11:25 AM.