464 replies to this topic

[Psikez]

MavRCK, on 28 May 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

like the dual ac 20 cataphract 4x..

But MavRCK you fool! The cataphract 4x can't mount 2 AC20s say all of the trolls ever.

Theres a lot of people in here that seem to think new players wouldn't be interested in competitive matches.
I'd suggest all the new folks give a run with any of the groups that do these sorts of things. The game turns into an entirely different beast and I have to say its a hell of a lot of fun competing with the best teams and individuals out there.

If it weren't for likes of Run Hot or Die, Proxis, or Last Man Standing etc, I'd have a lot less interest in this game.

[MavRCK]

Psikez, on 28 May 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

But MavRCK you fool! The cataphract 4x can't mount 2 AC20s say all of the trolls ever.

Theres a lot of people in here that seem to think new players wouldn't be interested in competitive matches.
I'd suggest all the new folks give a run with any of the groups that do these sorts of things. The game turns into an entirely different beast and I have to say its a hell of a lot of fun competing with the best teams and individuals out there.

If it weren't for likes of Run Hot or Die, Proxis, or Last Man Standing etc, I'd have a lot less interest in this game.

Haha, ya the jager! catapult.. haha i'm drunk sorreeeee!

[Fryderyk]

Hi, I'm about as new to the game as it gets. I played once or twice back in the closed beta and then got distracted by other things. Got an email today encouraging me to give the game another try and I thought that sounded like a good idea.

I think that the list that you posted is nice for people that want to go through to competitive games, so fair enough for it's existence. Although it does sort of portray the game as kinda broken and makes it seem like all the variety that there seems to be is kinda pointless at a competitive level (from the total new player perspective).

I don't have any intentions of trying to be an elite level player myself and the list that Merchant described a few posts ago is the type of thing I'd be interested in personally.

Since this is kinda the newbie forum, I think the super technical screaming matches are pretty confusing and make it pretty hard to follow the main point of the thread (mechs to take you up to competitive level matches). The screaming matches on a newbie help thread cast the community in a bad light in general.

In summary, I think the list posted here is useful for the audience it's aimed at but not me. Take the elite dude debate to the elite dude forum and update here with the consensus. Calm down, it's just a game. If someone wants to make a simple 'Like lots of lasers?' list for noobs who want to just play casual, that'd be cool.

Thanks

[Febrosian R Gillingham]

It would be interesting to get a consensus at least on the tier 1/upper tier 2 mechs, and then create a league where they are either limited or banned entirely. Kinda like the low tier tournaments that a lot of the fighting games have. Not a really serious league, just a way for teams to have some fun without getting stomped by the better builds. Probably won't happen until private matches are allowed, because good luck if you miss your drop...

@the mech tier list:
I'd probably move the Cicada 2A up a tier since a lot of teams are running jenners, and in a class-restricted drop you might want that extra honorary light. In that case, the 3M's ECM doesn't add much and the 2A has 2 more medium lasers, and the other mediums won't be able to keep up nearly as well. Certainly not a standard competitive mech, but imo it has its place.

Also seems like you forgot the Cent 9D. I'd probably put it in lower tier 2/upper tier 3. They used to be fairly common before the missile nerf as they're basically a less armed Cent 9A with either some extra speed (standard engine) or a lot of extra speed and squishier (XL engine). Again not a standard competitive build, but was useful in certain situations with the right drop deck. Possibly a solid tier 2 mech when SRMs get buffed again?

It might be worth it to put in a tier 4 for the really awful mechs. As it is, I would say the Jenner K is on a completely different plane of usefulness than the reject Spiders and the Death Knell. Or the non-ballistic Cicadas and Treb 3C vs the rest of the tier 3 mediums. Same with the other Catapults, Jagermechs, and possibly the Cataphract 4x and Flame being significantly better than the other Dragons. Atlases and Awesome 9M vs the other Awesomes too.

@UAV
Not entirely sure where this stands, but it does seem to be relatively easy to spot and shoot down. Could probably use a buff to range, and maybe a less obvious profile or some movement so its harder to shoot. I'd like to see Seismic nerfed to maybe half of its range, and the UAV buffed since it is able to be countered by an aware team.

[Kmieciu]

Febrosian R Gillingham, on 28 May 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

@UAV
Not entirely sure where this stands, but it does seem to be relatively easy to spot and shoot down. Could probably use a buff to range, and maybe a less obvious profile or some movement so its harder to shoot. I'd like to see Seismic nerfed to maybe half of its range, and the UAV buffed since it is able to be countered by an aware team.

UAV is very useful in 8vs8 mode. If the game ends in a brawl, and one team has a lot of ECM mechs, UAVs are the perfect equalizers. Before the patch we used to coordinate fire by saying "primary target: D-DC, first on the left". Sometimes you would loose a second or two looking for that target. And in competitive play the team that focuses fire better - wins.

Now we launch UAVs and can target every ECM mech nearby, and the enemy team loses time to locate and shoot down the UAVs. Those little buggers are supposed to have 10 HP, but one time I had to shoot it twice with Gauss rifle to take it down.
And when a light mech deploys UAV directly over the enemy team it may be hard to spot and mechs with torso mounted weapons won't be able to aim that high.

I rate UAV as a second best module, after the advanced seismic sensor.

[MavRCK]

Kmieciu, on 28 May 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

I rate UAV as a second best module, after the advanced seismic sensor.

I'm referring to competitive 8s where targeting mechs isn't such an issue.

[IceSerpent]

You know, I find it kind of interesting that MavRCK compares AC20 to LL to PPC, ends up with a conclusion of "What's the difference? It's the details..", yet nobody seems to have any issues with those 3 weapons being roughly equal in MWO.

[MavRCK]

IceSerpent, on 29 May 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

You know, I find it kind of interesting that MavRCK compares AC20 to LL to PPC, ends up with a conclusion of "What's the difference? It's the details..", yet nobody seems to have any issues with those 3 weapons being roughly equal in MWO.

Maybe equal... but very different.


It's really not such a difficult permutation of different weapon systems, engines, etc.. etc.. like what, 10 variables to account for?

Seriously folks, this isn't a complicated game.

This is a useful article which gives analogous insight into chassis variations and the different tiers they fit into:

http://www.reignofga...etitive-balance

Edited by MavRCK, 29 May 2013 - 04:01 PM.

[Koniving]

MavRCK, on 28 May 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

One must find the right balance of amount of ammunition versus making yourself vulnerable. Too much ammunition not used during a fight can be a live grenade waiting to happen - ammo explosion of 1000 dmg is no joke!

While this is true, it depends on how the ammunition is placed. Consider what's given here on the concept of crit-slot padding to significantly reduce the risk of ammo explosion. Ironic, is the fact that having extra ammo can be used to reduce chances of ammo explosion against non-super crit seekers such as LB-10x and MG. Should be a fun read.

As a side note: against super crit seekers this is only a minor defense that delays the inevitable -- if you have ammo stat padding will increase how much time you have but inevitably you will die from an ammo explosion unless you deal with the threat efficiently. This has been proven time and time again both with me using them and with me as the victim of them. (It's actually why I completely stopped carrying ammo in my legs, because MGs and LB-10s ALWAYS cause explosions to my legs!)

Edited by Koniving, 29 May 2013 - 11:45 AM.

[IceSerpent]

MavRCK, on 29 May 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Maybe equal... but very different.

My point is that AC20 should not even be comparable to either PPC or LL - it's supposed to cover an entirely separate range. Yet we have what we have and people wonder why AC10 is so unpopular...

[giganova]

The tier list is misleading and I advise new players not adhere to it.

[Psikez]

giganova, on 29 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

The tier list is misleading and I advise new players not adhere to it.

Do you have any reasoning?

[giganova]

Plenty, aside from the obvious. OP admits in his first post to being an "elitist", competitive player, pro-gamer, whatever he fancies calling himself. However, new players are most likely not going to be in a competitive environment. Also, there have been plenty of times where his "bottom tier" mechs have done fine against "top tier" mechs.

The original post is very 'matter-of-fact' when it really isn't, there are a myriad of grey areas that were unaccounted for. I would take this "tier" list as the average experience of the OP, but certainly not the experience of the average new player, or even competitive players. All this list manages to accomplish for new players is voiding large chunks of the games mechanics.

[MavRCK]

giganova, on 29 May 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Plenty, aside from the obvious. OP admits in his first post to being an "elitist", competitive player, pro-gamer, whatever he fancies calling himself. However, new players are most likely not going to be in a competitive environment. Also, there have been plenty of times where his "bottom tier" mechs have done fine against "top tier" mechs.

The original post is very 'matter-of-fact' when it really isn't, there are a myriad of grey areas that were unaccounted for. I would take this "tier" list as the average experience of the OP, but certainly not the experience of the average new player, or even competitive players. All this list manages to accomplish for new players is voiding large chunks of the games mechanics.

You need to read the thread.

We already have our noted spammers of this thread lambasting away with their complete lack of competitive experience or ability to constructively argue and appreciate a different view.

Your contribution is self-centered and contributes nothing.

This list does help some people and if you don't think it "should" then keep it to yourself [redacted]



Better yet, why don't you donate some of your cbills to the guys who feel they've misspent their cbills on mechs? Oh wait, you didn't read the thread...

-Mav being uncharacteristically non-KaoS polite.

Edited by miSs, 29 May 2013 - 05:53 PM.
unnecessary

[Cerberias]

I hope you're ready for a giant meta change soon Mav .

[MavRCK]

Cerberias, on 29 May 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

I hope you're ready for a giant meta change soon Mav .

It's brutal figuring things out right now... ! but fun.

[giganova]

MavRCK, on 29 May 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

You need to read the thread.

We already have our noted spammers of this thread lambasting away with their complete lack of competitive experience or ability to constructively argue and appreciate a different view.

Your contribution is self-centered and contributes nothing.

This list does help some people and if you don't think it "should" then keep it to yourself [redacted]



Better yet, why don't you donate some of your cbills to the guys who feel they've misspent their cbills on mechs? Oh wait, you didn't read the thread...

-Mav being uncharacteristically non-KaoS polite.

I read the first post, that was sufficient enough for me to form a contrary opinion. Wouldn't be this big of an issue if my original response of this list being ridiculous wasn't needlessly censored. I'm not a spammer and I'm not lambasting, flattering of you to think I am though. I've also been a competitive gamer, so I know what it's like, which is why I am no longer one, too many pretentious jerks. If anything, your "contribution" is self-centered, and very detrimental to new players. I think there's much more information in the new players section that will actually help new players, certainly not this list.

If any addendum were made AFTER the first post, then I apologize. However, they should really be added to the first post and a disclaimer that these are all the opinions of the original poster, and not factual information that new players should follow, which is how the first post is presented. Being a pro-gamer does not give you the right or authority to dictate to new players what mechs they should and should not be playing. This game's primary market is the casual gamer, a pro-gamer giving skewed advice to new players... that's just silly.

[Cubivorre]

giganova, on 30 May 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

Being a pro-gamer does not give you the right or authority to dictate to new players what mechs they should and should not be playing. This game's primary market is the casual gamer, a pro-gamer giving skewed advice to new players... that's just silly.

For the record - No one here is a pro-gamer. Only competitive players.

[giganova]

I use the terms interchangeably, both groups are of a similar ilk.

[Just wanna play]

Cerberias, on 29 May 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

I hope you're ready for a giant meta change soon Mav .

looks like its Bob Dylan time......