464 replies to this topic

[giganova]

http://mwomercs.com/...balance-issues/

[Marmon Rzohr]

Thanks for the effort and videos !

The tier list is a nice thing a makes good reading. I have to say i find the logic behind it and the layout itself to be totally sound.

It is a bit of a shame that some Mechs are (especially in the current meta) a bit gimped. But what can you do ? That's the staple of PvP in any game from RTS games to MMORPGs. Something, be it a tactic, class, build, weapon or, in this case, Mech, will always be superior to something else. At least given the right circumstances. It's a simple necessity. Unless PGI makes every Mech essentially the same with different skins.

I don't really understand the hate surrounding this post...

Even if we set aside the fact that you are hating on someone who is trying to invest time and effort into the community, which is always a good thing (even if opinions are wrong, they still keep the forums and players talking).

There are lots of references to pilot skill and individual success vs. the list.

I find this preplexing and here's why:

- Any mech can defeat any other. That's a given. Especially if there's a skill differential, but this is true even if there is none. A Cat C4 can take down a 3D. Nobody is disputing claims like these. That's not the point of the tier list.

- A pilot may know a certain chassis so well and be used to it to such an extent that he/she is good at compensating for it's drawbacks. Also a fact, but again, not the point.

The reason why tier lists and "overpowered" things exist in WoW, in LoL, DotA and indeed in MW:O is because of one simple reason: people copy other people who win.

Players will almost always rather use a tactic that is tried, tested and known to work than one that is experimental. Why ? Because it takes time and time is money, so you might as well invest your time (money) in something that's a safe bet.
And that is something MavRCK is trying to make easier.

He's trying to show the community what are the tried, tested and commonly used Mechs in tournaments. Why ? Not to tell you you're a fool for not following the list, but so new players know what's probably the most sensible investment of their time and C-Bills.

Something else might work for you. Hell, something else may work better, especially in the right hands, but that's not gonna help you choose a Mech that you know will perform well if you have little or know experience.


Also I'd like to add these two things:
1) Mechs that are high on the list are ones simply make things easy. Sure, a 2D can beat a Raven 3L. But if you're piloting the Raven it takes less effort. Less pushing the mech to it's edge. It's the same with the Cataphract 3D. It just makes your life easier if you want to snipe. You've got JJ, decent hitboxes, articulated arms and the most tons in the class. It's not gonna make you unbeatable, just makes it easier than any other chassis. That's why it's picked when you REALLY want to win. You don't want a high risk - high reward Mech, you want something that doesn't require effort to put on the same level as another Mech, even if it can be done. Why ? Because that's just not playing safe.

2) Playing safe isn't everything. Sure, that meta will change. Mechs will switch places in tiers. New tactics will arise. A brave team will pull off something unexpected and win. Then everyone will start to copy them. If you think Dragons are OP. Roll with it and make it work. If you do, someone will start copying you etc. That's how the meta shifts

I don't want to seem condescending or something, just wanted to rant my rant hoping it might shift some of the posting on this topic to the more constructive: "what can be improved about this list and why" which some people have been doing so diligently. (Thanks btw )

[Joey Tankblaster]

That list is simply wrong.

[Mycrus]

Spiders should be top of the list as it is the closest thing to god mode now...

[TripleEhBeef]

My TBT-7K is a bottom-tier medium?

[TheKildar]

Unless the Tier rankings are made with the default loadouts in mind this is almost entirely wrong aside from the light mech tiers. My Firebrand absolutely Demolishes most Ilya Muromets builds, at long range or face to face. and the Hunchback 4G and H are certainly not bottom tier mechs once you've gotten some experience with them.

[Bluecricket]

TheKildar, on 01 August 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Unless the Tier rankings are made with the default loadouts in mind this is almost entirely wrong aside from the light mech tiers. My Firebrand absolutely Demolishes most Ilya Muromets builds, at long range or face to face. and the Hunchback 4G and H are certainly not bottom tier mechs once you've gotten some experience with them.

With all due respect, none of this applies in solo pub drops or 4-mans with your friends. The list assumes "optimal" strategies and fits in organized competitive environments, not random chaos.

I don't agree with every single point made (For example, I personally feel that the BJ-1X fills a similar striker/buttshooter/opportunity target role as the HBK-4P while being significantly smaller and faster), but it's a solid overview of the current options available.

Sorry, Hunchbacks are actually not very good--they're slow, fat, and concentrate too much firepower into their extremely easy-to-hit right torso mount, all while carrying less overall punch than a Centurion A. The Muromets can run dual gauss in arms with full arm motion, which is a huge advantage--that's why it's ranked so high (I assume).

Also, please read this: http://insomnia.ac/c...1/on_cheapness/ and http://insomnia.ac/c...minator_part_1/ -they're articles from years ago about the fighting game community, but all the content makes for an excellent parallel to what I'm seeing here.

[MavRCK]

Oh hey everyone!

I'm back from Europe and I hope that you have been having a great summer... I am now slowly in the process of getting up to date with the latest and greatest MWO information!

First of all, almost 10,000 views on the channel which is great. I've noticed people have been watching Part 1 but not Part 2 -- so in case it's not clear here is the link to Part 1 of the latest tier list: http://www.twitch.tv...avrck/c/2613710

Secondly, the new 55 ton mech looks like fun -- especially if they fix when they fix its CT!

Lastly, I wanted you to all know how much I appreciate the comments here. Internet access has been spotty at best while in Europe so I was not able to keep up with the comments or questions. Please continue to post or message and I will eventually get back to you all.

Good luck ; have fun ; happy hunting!

Mav

PS: I played a lot of Virtua Fighter, in North America and in Japan. Our compatriots were the Street Fighter crowd - a rather impassioned lot - the article listed is really good and explains a lot of psychology behind the "scrub".

Edited by MavRCK, 16 August 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[MavRCK]

TripleEhBeef, on 31 July 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

My TBT-7K is a bottom-tier medium?

In competitive, organized team-play 8s.. yes

Bluecricket, on 01 August 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Sorry, Hunchbacks are actually not very good--they're slow, fat, and concentrate too much firepower into their extremely easy-to-hit right torso mount, all while carrying less overall punch than a Centurion A. The Muromets can run dual gauss in arms with full arm motion, which is a huge advantage--that's why it's ranked so high (I assume).

The 4P shoulder is actually an advantage from a damage absorption / shield perspective, not unlikely the centurion - hence, its position. The 4SP is a all-around mech that is a good learning mech, but whose dominance has been relegated to the past and second-tier status.

I'm excited for this new 55 tonner...

TheKildar, on 01 August 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Unless the Tier rankings are made with the default loadouts in mind this is almost entirely wrong aside from the light mech tiers. My Firebrand absolutely Demolishes most Ilya Muromets builds, at long range or face to face. and the Hunchback 4G and H are certainly not bottom tier mechs once you've gotten some experience with them.

This makes no sense.

Please read the list and look up the concept of min-max'ing.

Mycrus, on 29 July 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

Spiders should be top of the list as it is the closest thing to god mode now...

<3 <3 <3

I got a kill with my 4 machine gun spider...

Joey Tankblaster, on 26 July 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

That list is simply wrong.

Your name is wrong.

Royalewithcheese, on 22 July 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Hey, I haven't had a lot of time to play since the Quickdraw came out, so I'm wondering what made/makes it T1. Is it the JJ+PPC? Thanks!

Exactly!!

Movement issues in the game give extra weight to the benefits of JJs.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Threads like this aren't for original content, but rather serve to quickly introduce new players to the meta and cookie cutting methods.

This isn't about how to make the game more varied. That's what the Gameplay Balance threads are about.

While many players aren't terribly interested in the meta as such, but rather like to build mechs they like (mostly long time BattleTech/MechWarrior fans who know what they like), some players like to know where it's most resonable to invest their C-Bills.

In other words, they want to know what's overpowered and a safe bet. This is a PvP game after all, and people want to understand the meta to win.

The unchanging content is due to the fact that this (more-or-less) exact meta has been in play for a very long time as dominant. In other F2P games overpowered things get nerfed much, much faster and the meta changes quickly making things more exciting.

(to be fair this is also because of more varied demographics as well)

MWO however is still stuck in Beta, with developers trying to do too many things at once in a shrinking timeframe, so exciting meta shifts are gonna have to wait.

So don't be so cynical

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 21 August 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[giganova]

Marmon Rzohr, on 21 August 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Threads like this aren't for original content, but rather serve to quickly introduce new players to the meta and cookie cutting methods.

You are absolutely right about there being no original content. Not only that, but there exists threads on these forums that do a much better job on the topic than this one. 80bit's, for example: http://mwomercs.com/...f-all-76-mechs/ The OP in that thread is a lot less arrogant.

This tier list should be deleted, as there are more than a few other tier lists that do better, and not in the guise of helping new players by advertising a twitchtv channel.

[MavRCK]

Will be updating the tier list on Saturday after work about 4pm EST.

[redacted]

Edited by miSs, 23 August 2013 - 08:58 AM.
unnecessary.

[MavRCK]

Updated!

It's been fun playing again and getting back into the swing of things.

Drama - oh my! Don't play too much attention and focus on playing smart. Here's hoping IGP / PGI figure their stuff out before the launch.

Remember if you're buying your first mech, choose very carefully.

Questions: post away but remember there's a difference between competitive play and pug / solo play.

For example, I think PPCs are balanced for competitive play with the bump to damage of SRMs and heat changes to PPCs. That said, it does require tactics and a smart team to overcome the inherent ease of PPCs. Balance in competition is not the same as balance in SoloQ.

GL HF!

[MavRCK]

My suggestions to get MWO back on track for launch:

1) Lobbies - basic simple lobbies like in League of Legends which you can create, auto-join and from where you can create custom games
2) Custom games - assault or conquest, 12 v 12 only - just the barebones
3) Bump the SRM damage from 2.0 to 2.25 - will help mediums / brawlers punish snipers
4) Put PPC / ERPPC recycle time at 4.25 seconds or 4.75 seconds -- prevents sync'ing with gauss
5) Ensure Gauss and PPC / ERPPC have different projectile speeds
6) Movement - make a minimum height of obstacles for mechs to be affected by slope %.
7) Slope % - increase by 20% before affecting mechs, decrease % to slow mech by 50% -- this will make the movement feel smoother (important for first impressions)
8) Lasers - decrease heat of large lasers and large pulse lasers by 1. Allow for 3 LL / LPL to fire without ghost heat.
9) AC2 - allow for 4 AC to fire without ghost heat
10) AC5 - allow for 4 AC5 to fire without ghost heat
11) UAC5 - make jam ONLY on 2ND double tap and at 15% chance to jam
12) AC10 - allow for 3 AC10 to fire without ghost heat
13) Seismic - work only when standing still for 3 seconds. Increase range to 300m.
14) Single heat sinks - increase heat dissipation of single heatsinks by 30% (is this possible??).
15) Custom MavRCK Spider Cockpit Statue - with a skull face of course.
16) Red velvet cupcakes for everyone -- 'cause everyone loves cupcakes.

Edited by MavRCK, 24 August 2013 - 04:44 PM.

[Stanley Peace]

The HGN-733P is considered Tier 1 because of 4x Energy hardpoints? Meaning 4xPPC?

[MavRCK]

Stanley Peace, on 25 August 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

The HGN-733P is considered Tier 1 because of 4x Energy hardpoints? Meaning 4xPPC?

Thanks! Changed it to 733C!

Sadly, being back, the more I play, the worst the level of play has become especially with 12v12... It's such a gong-show. No wonder balance is off - this is what the developers think is acceptable play?

[Stanley Peace]

Hmm, OK I think I understand now.

In competetive play 732+733P are better because more energy hardpoints (=more PPC), but in PUG land 733C better because AC/20?

[Wintersdark]

Stanley Peace, on 28 August 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Hmm, OK I think I understand now.

In competetive play 732+733P are better because more energy hardpoints (=more PPC), but in PUG land 733C better because AC/20?

The 733P is nowhere near the mech it was before Ghost Heat. The 732 is still a good mech, and the 733P is serviceable, but with Ghost Heat their value has been substantially curtailed. 4PPC's fired in pairs are not nearly as dangerous as 4PPC's alpha striking. 2PPC/Gauss is vastly better for obvious reasons, and the 733C offers not just AC20 but also 2xUAC5.

MavRCK's list absolutely needs a rework post-Ghost Heat.

[Enderman]

The info in this list is severely outdated and should not be used as a basis on selecting your mechs.

Too much had changed - ghost heat for firing several weapons of the same type, SSRM2 recent damage buff (1.5 -> 2.5), overall improvement of medium mechs, etc.

Edited by Enderman, 28 August 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[MavRCK]

Enderman, on 28 August 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

The info in this list is severely outdated and should not be used as a basis on selecting your mechs.

Too much had changed - ghost heat for firing several weapons of the same type, SSRM2 recent damage buff (1.5 -> 2.5), overall improvement of medium mechs, etc.

Which is why I updated it? O.o