464 replies to this topic

[MavRCK]

Sorry guys. Power was out tuesday and I am working lots this week - last week was a 100 hr week from hell. Combine that with few new things to comment and I feel that there's not much to do unless I do regular segments on tactics. Even then it's a lot of work.

I have an interview planned - might have others. Some refinements to the lists but the list is essentially set. The next modules are not ground breaking although I will need to explain UAV and artillery strike...

If there is a topic favoured by a lot of people I'd address that.

Edited by MavRCK, 20 November 2013 - 10:51 PM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

There was speculation that the Advanced Gyro module might reduce jump-jet shake...any confirmation on this yet, one way or the other?

[Bront]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 21 November 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

There was speculation that the Advanced Gyro module might reduce jump-jet shake...any confirmation on this yet, one way or the other?

It's been reported that it does not.

[MavRCK]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 21 November 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

There was speculation that the Advanced Gyro module might reduce jump-jet shake...any confirmation on this yet, one way or the other?

No jump shake.. only when you get hit. Confirmed by super secret sources.

[MavRCK]

Luxebo, say you have a firing line of the most badass jump snipers ever to grace the known universe... oh wait, that's the House of Lords... ok say you got the Lords all lined up on you and you can choose between:

1) Locust - which can be 1 shot anywhere and die instantly
2) Raven - which can take 2-3 shots before dying a slow painful death

Which mech would you choose?

That's why the locust is below the other variants in competitive play.

Edited by MavRCK, 21 November 2013 - 06:19 PM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

MavRCK, on 21 November 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

No jump shake.. only when you get hit. Confirmed by super secret sources.

Thanks Mav and Bront...bummer, but not surprised as that would have been OP, especially for those super secret sources, who are already OP...

[KevinL21]

Hi thre Mavrk. Thanks for running this tier list and the stream. I'm new to MWO (1 month) so the comments from experienced players is very useful on your stream (from October). I have been able to get my light mech skills up to a 600 personal high dmg but my assault mechs (even the victor's leveled up) is still pretty horrible. Ironically, I really quite like the blackjack bj1 champion they have on trial. Mobility with an ac/20. I've managed to master up about 11 mechs in intensive play over the last month but tactics and strategy... still not there yet for me. Thanks again for targeting your posts/interviews to the new players.

[MavRCK]

kleung21, on 22 November 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Hi thre Mavrk. Thanks for running this tier list and the stream. I'm new to MWO (1 month) so the comments from experienced players is very useful on your stream (from October). I have been able to get my light mech skills up to a 600 personal high dmg but my assault mechs (even the victor's leveled up) is still pretty horrible. Ironically, I really quite like the blackjack bj1 champion they have on trial. Mobility with an ac/20. I've managed to master up about 11 mechs in intensive play over the last month but tactics and strategy... still not there yet for me. Thanks again for targeting your posts/interviews to the new players.

Great to hear. Will do more tactics. Ryan Steel's comments on assaults might help, too. Good job on the 11 mechs - tearing it up! You're 1/4 there!

ChenZM aka MavRCK

Edited by MavRCK, 23 November 2013 - 12:24 AM.

[luxebo]

I see MavRCK your point on the Locusts and Ravens. I don't really have too much experience on the Locusts (though Ravens I had but only stock Ravens that were on trial.)

[Electrickster]

Could somebody explain to me why are the Battlemasters rated so low?

I haven't got one yet and I dunno their torso twist, hitbox etc stats. I just wanna know the main reason they are rated so low.

And another question: Are the Trebuchets without JJ rly that bad? They seem to have larger torso twist range.

Thx.

Edited by Electrickster, 23 November 2013 - 04:01 PM.

[YueFei]

I'm curious if anyone has tried using light and medium sniper mechs with success in organized 12's? I figure at max range, a light or medium mech can literally dodge enemy PPC and AC fire. You've got about a half second to react. Given enough time and distance, such snipers could potentially wear down heavy and assault snipers.

The weakness of lights and mediums setup as snipers is that they'd get crushed by close-range loadouts, so they'd have to stick close to their own heavies and assaults for support, which limits the area of the map you're going to be able to scout.

If using light and medium mech snipers has not been successfully attempted, can you explain why it has failed?

[Bront]

Electrickster, on 23 November 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

Could somebody explain to me why are the Battlemasters rated so low?

I haven't got one yet and I dunno their torso twist, hitbox etc stats. I just wanna know the main reason they are rated so low.

And another question: Are the Trebuchets without JJ rly that bad? They seem to have larger torso twist range.

Thx.

Battlemasters are great. They're fast, have a lot of firepower, and have high mounted energy weapons. Problems with competitive play though:

1) Speed is heavy, so it's XL or bust if you want a heavy duty loadout and speed. The Battlemaster runs an XL very well.
2) It runs an XL pretty well because the CT is wider in the center, and gets cored most of the time regardless of pilot twisting (though it spreads damage well enough to not suck royally)
3) Balistic hardpoints are low mounted, and Balistics are top tier damage dealers in competitive matches, so the Battlemaster has trouble using Balistics behind cover.
4) No JJs
5) The 1G has a limited torso twist, and the missile hardpoint sticks out if used (though not as bad as the T-Bolt). The 1S and 1D are better at twisting, but the 1S relies on missiles a lot, and the 1D's big draw are the 3 Balistic slots.

Ultimately, the Victor or Highlander do most of what the Battlemaster does for a competitive level better (Balistic/Energy mix with JJ). For simply energy builds, the Stalker is the same tonnage and has similar high energy points, and is much more durable due to how it spreads damage away from the CT.

Now, for PUGs, they're awesome. Speed + Firepower, or great LRM boat, but this is the competitive (IE, 12 man) tier thread.

I wouldn't talk anyone out of getting one though, they're fun.

[MavRCK]

Medium and light mechs don't really dodge other snipers. They are fragile and susceptible to hard pushes. They have a role which is why the shadowhawk is tier 1. There is no light mech which is a true sniper except perhaps the raven 3L with 2 ERLL but i see that more of a pug build than organized 12s.

The battlemaster lacks JJ and in order to use its ballistics often has to square up and trade damage. A stalker does the job better. Watch the videos.

Remember guys, there's a difference between 12s competition and 4 man pug / solo queue.

[Wintersdark]

MavRCK, on 24 November 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Remember guys, there's a difference between 12s competition and 4 man pug / solo queue.

This has been said many times, but bears repeating for emphasis.

The difference isn't necessarily that chassis/builds for 12 man drops are better than the builds for 4-man/solo queueing builds, they're just different.

In 12's, you're working as a much closer organized team and as such need to be very good at whatever it is you're doing, but having weaknesses is less of a problem because you can rely on teammates' abilities and positioning to cover that.

In PUG matches, there's a much higher valuation on flexibility, because you can't rely on your teammates in the same way. Not that they're all bad - they're likely going to be just as good as you are, despite how people like to complain - but as you're lacking communications and experience together, you can't rely on they're being where you expect them to be, or doing what you expect them to do. So, you need a build more able to be self-sufficient.

As an example: Speed (while always important) is more valuable in PUG matches overall. You need to be able to reposition fast, as your allies may suddenly hare off in some random direction. Given this, chassis that can run XL's well are more useful than they are in 12's, where you'll nearly never run XL engines (baring some obvious roles)

[YueFei]

MavRCK, on 24 November 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Medium and light mechs don't really dodge other snipers. They are fragile and susceptible to hard pushes. They have a role which is why the shadowhawk is tier 1. There is no light mech which is a true sniper except perhaps the raven 3L with 2 ERLL but i see that more of a pug build than organized 12s.

Mediums and Lights can't dodge sniper fire at 500 meters, but say out to 800+ meters (ERPPC range), it takes a projectile over half a second to arrive on target, it begins to fall within the realm of human reflexes to literally dodge it. Maybe most of the maps are too small to support that kind of ranged fighting, but I can still remember dueling a dual-ERPPC Cicada on Alpine and watching him literally dodge my PPC shots.

A hard push would roll them over, but could a hard push be countered by falling back and dropping artillery to cover the withdrawal?

[MavRCK]

YueFei, on 24 November 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Mediums and Lights can't dodge sniper fire at 500 meters, but say out to 800+ meters (ERPPC range), it takes a projectile over half a second to arrive on target, it begins to fall within the realm of human reflexes to literally dodge it. Maybe most of the maps are too small to support that kind of ranged fighting, but I can still remember dueling a dual-ERPPC Cicada on Alpine and watching him literally dodge my PPC shots.

A hard push would roll them over, but could a hard push be countered by falling back and dropping artillery to cover the withdrawal?

You're talking low level play vs high level play.

It's very hard to shoot someone and not expose yourself for the period of time needed to be countered... in fact, that's part of the skill of playing MWO. That said, no mech moves so quickly that it's able to dodge enemy fire easily.... so while your idea has merits - it has flaws and more than i've mentioned which become more evident as you play at higher levels..

You can watch a few of my videos where a jenner at range or a spider dont' escape my shots beyond 800+ meters...

Edited by MavRCK, 26 November 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[MavRCK]

bored.. failed to find match

will go work on tier list

Edited by MavRCK, 27 November 2013 - 08:57 PM.

[YueFei]

MavRCK, on 24 November 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

You're talking low level play vs high level play.

It's very hard to shoot someone and not expose yourself for the period of time needed to be countered... in fact, that's part of the skill of playing MWO. That said, no mech moves so quickly that it's able to dodge enemy fire easily.... so while your idea has merits - it has flaws and more than i've mentioned which become more evident as you play at higher levels..

You can watch a few of my videos where a jenner at range or a spider dont' escape my shots beyond 800+ meters...

The TLDR; version of my post is:
Seems to me a scout has to be 1+ kilometer away to literally dodge a shot once the projectiles are in the air.

In general, how close do your scouts feel comfortable getting to the enemy? How far away from the enemy do they have to be to feel comfortable enough to safely maintain LOS for extended periods of time, with the confidence that they can dodge any shots thrown their way? 1+ kilometer?

I was interested in this enough to try to figure it out mathematically. For anyone interested, the (very rough) math follows:
A Jenner has a top speed of 41 meters/sec, and I'm guestimating that you can go from zero to top speed in about 1 second in a fully elited Jenner, you have an acceleration of about 41 meters/sec^2. A shot from 800 meters arrives on target in 530 milliseconds. Human reflexes for visual stimulus is around 200 milliseconds, so that leaves you with 330 milliseconds to move from the moment you press that button. In 330 milliseconds, a Jenner accelerating at 41 meters/sec^2 will move about 2.2 meters. I'm not sure how wide a Jenner is, but that might not be far enough to completely dodge a perfectly aimed shot.

At about 1 kilometer, the extra distance gives you enough time to dodge because your human reaction time is less of a factor. The equation for distance travelled depends on the time squared, so adding even an extra 100 milliseconds (430 milliseconds total) to the time you have to dodge allows you to travel 3.8 meters, which is probably enough... I don't think Jenners are more than 7 meters wide.

I'm not 100% sure how well this math holds up, with the one big assumption being that a Jenner can go 0 to 150kph in 1 second, but it feels about right to me.

Edited by YueFei, 28 November 2013 - 01:07 AM.

[MavRCK]

Most players will not be in the open to allow for this form of trading.. a few maps like Alpine may permit it, but players now take cover well and the engagements are usually under 800m.

The issue then becomes, sustained dps with one build in a scout vs another build - to allow for ppcs / ERLL you need to drop engine weight which means you become slower / accelerate slower etc etc

[Bront]

Hey Mav, why do you have the Cataphrat 2X rated above the 1X/4X? Particularly when most folks don't like the 2X?

(I've enjoyed my 2X once I figured out a good build for it, I'm admittedly limited since I'm working without Endo or DHS at the moment)